NCE Powercab, Digitrax DS64 Decoders & Seep Motors

[Danemouth]

I've got an NCE Powercab with which I am very pleased.

 

I decided to go for DCC point operation and have purchased 3 Digitrax DS64 decoders and a dozen Seep PM4 motors.

 

I connected the first DS64, got the heartbeat led and connected one point motor - the motor was not installed, the trial is being done on a table for ease of checking.

 

The point motor would not fire. Added a 12vdc 300 ma PS to the setup and still no luck. Also tried this setup with the other 2 DS64s. Wiring has been triple checked and I am sure it is ok.

 

I then tried the seep directly off a 12v DC wall-wart - just be brief trial to see if the motor was ok - nothing happened. So I found an old CDU and tried the point motor again, well away from DCC. This time the motor changes. Tried ther other eleven motors all will fire via a CDU but not otherwise.

 

I can see no way to use a CDU with the DS64s.

 

Has anybody else encountered this problem if so how did you get around it please? I don't intend to spend any more on accessory decoders and will build a conventional panel to control the points whilst operating the locos via DCC if I can't get the DS64 to work

 

Any help most appreciated,

 

Thanks,

 

Dave

[StaffsOatcake]

Excuse my ignorance I have no experience of the digitrax items but have had a powercab/procab sytem for a number of years

 

are you taking the power for the point motors from the Powercab track supply or a separate source. I've a separate Lenz power supply to power my lenz accessory decoders and the powercab only sends the command signals to the decoders leaving the seperate power supply to fire the points.

[Danemouth]

Excuse my ignorance I have no experience of the digitrax items but have had a powercab/procab sytem for a number of years

 

are you taking the power for the point motors from the Powercab track supply or a separate source. I a separate Lenz power supply to power my lenz accessory decoders and the powercab only sends the command signals to the decoders.

 

I've tried powering via the track bus and a then with separate 12vdc 300 ma supply feeding just the DS64, so that the track bus should be supplying the commands only.

 

Dave

[Nigelcliffe]

Is it possible to test the outputs of the DS64 to be sure the DCC commands are going through and being correctly interpretted ? This would then separate whether the decoder is working on DCC, and a second question is whether the Seep motor works with the decoder.

 

 

Example test equipment might be: fast acting voltmeter to see the pulse. LEDs with series resistor which should flash on the pulse being sent.

 

Slightly more involved testing would be to change the Op-Switch to "tortoise" style motors, and then a voltmeter would show the changes in the outputs.

 

An alternative method might be to use the "input" wires on the decoder to fire the decoder manually. That might show that the Seep motors do work, and the problem is DCC. (But doesn't really answer if the Seep fails to fire).

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

The NCE Pro Cab uses a different protocol to Digitrax so you will need to connect the decoder to a programme track before installing it. Connecting a 12v dc power supply to the DS64 will not programme it, only connection to a LocoNet cable network ( not an option for you ) and the programming track addressed by the NCE controller will work to address this decoder.

 

Have you checked the ops switches in the DS64 to make sure that they are set for a pulse motor? Can't remember which op switch it is but the manual supplied will detail that or you can download the manual from the Digitrax website as a PDF file. AFAIK the DS64 has a CDU built in to the decoder. Have you allocated a point number to the output and have you connected the Seep to the correct output and have you connected it the right way round? There are three connections and they are handed plus common return so reverse connection will give the symptoms you describe. It is possible that the Seep power requirement exceeds the DS64 output but there should be some indication that the output is working,

 

I am not entirely sure that you will be able to get the best from these DS64's with an NCE Powercab, good as both these pieces of kit are but the DS64 has the unique ability to be hooked into a Loconet daisy chain and give far more than you will receive by simply programming it using NMRA commands.

[DougN]

Totally agree with David above. I have 5 on my layout though they are all through a Digitrax Cheif. The CDU on the peco motors all work fine on my layout and I have yet to hook up all the sensors/ outside inputs for the other options. I do not have a seep to try unfortunately (I was planning to try one). How have you hooked up the wiring on the point motor? I have just googled the wiring and it is pins A& B are separate and Pin C is the common.

 

Therefore looking at the 2 banks of 5 screw terminals on the DS 64 should be connected:

 

A1, B1, (C1+C2), A2, B2

 

(A1= point wire to point no 1, A2 point wire to point no 2 etc)

 

This is running off memory. The other longer screw set of 8 contacts is the other inputs/outputs.

 

Does this make sense to you? They should fire on address 1 through 4 Closed or thrown.

[Danemouth]

Totally agree with David above. I have 5 on my layout though they are all through a Digitrax Cheif. The CDU on the peco motors all work fine on my layout and I have yet to hook up all the sensors/ outside inputs for the other options. I do not have a seep to try unfortunately (I was planning to try one). How have you hooked up the wiring on the point motor? I have just googled the wiring and it is pins A& B are separate and Pin C is the common.

 

Therefore looking at the 2 banks of 5 screw terminals on the DS 64 should be connected:

 

A1, B1, (C1+C2), A2, B2

 

(A1= point wire to point no 1, A2 point wire to point no 2 etc)

 

This is running off memory. The other longer screw set of 8 contacts is the other inputs/outputs.

 

Does this make sense to you? They should fire on address 1 through 4 Closed or thrown.

 

Thanks Doug for confirming my wiring is correct. I've read the leaflets so many times that I began to doubt myself!

 

I suspect that the seeps need the omph of a CDU which apparently cannot be used directly with a DS64 - unless an RMWebber knows different

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[DougN]

Dave the DS64's have a intergral CDU inside the case. (one of the tops popped off mine so I had a look, then replaced the lid!)

 

Can you double check the operation of the decoder with a peco motor? I use the ordinary motors not the high efficency ones.

 

I would have thought that the decoder would work OK with the seeps as they are not that different to the Peco version. I will be interested in what you discover.

 

As a total aside I think that the seep motors "should be better" to fix than the Pecos as you have to purchase the screw in plate separately and they are a ###### as the screws are too small to get at, and the pin becomes really long!Most of mine are direct to the points now due to the pain of putting them underneath... 1 under neath installed to 3 direct fix and that includes pulling up the track and relaying!

[Danemouth]

I'm still no further forward despite the helpful advice you have all given so far - please do keep it coming.

 

The Powercab is connected just to a single DS64 (not the track) with a single Peco point motor. Unlike the Seep Motors the Peco motor will throw with a 12vdc supply when not connected to the DS64, so I know the motor actually works.

 

I've tried a factory reset of the DS64, can't tell if has worked. However, I am left with a very basic question:

 

The DS64 refers to "Closed" and "Thrown" commands for programming, the Powercab "1 = N (ON)" and 2 = R(OFF)". I have assumed that "Closed" equates to the Powecab's "1 = N (ON)". Am I correct please?

 

Bearing in mind that the Powercab is a starter set I wonder if I am asking too much of it? Incidentally the DS64 does get quite warm.

 

Again, many thanks for all your help,

 

Dave

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I'm still no further forward despite the helpful advice you have all given so far - please do keep it coming.

 

The Powercab is connected just to a single DS64 (not the track) with a single Peco point motor. Unlike the Seep Motors the Peco motor will throw with a 12vdc supply when not connected to the DS64, so I know the motor actually works.

 

I've tried a factory reset of the DS64, can't tell if has worked. However, I am left with a very basic question:

 

The DS64 refers to "Closed" and "Thrown" commands for programming, the Powercab "1 = N (ON)" and 2 = R(OFF)". I have assumed that "Closed" equates to the Powecab's "1 = N (ON)". Am I correct please?

 

Bearing in mind that the Powercab is a starter set I wonder if I am asking too much of it? Incidentally the DS64 does get quite warm.

 

Again, many thanks for all your help,

 

Dave

 

I never did get to grips with closed and thrown even when it all worked.

 

The DS64 does get quite warm in operation.

 

You still say your DS64 is 'connected' to your NCE Powercab but not specifically how. I think you will need to establish whether the NCE is 'talking' to the DS64 and which output you are addressing. DS64's are programmed to addresses 1 to 4 from the factory and only switch commands will be accepted NOT loco ones. I have no experience of the NCE so cannot direct you as to how to access the switch command structure but I do know that these two pieces of hardware need to be programmed to talk to each other and that can only be done on the programming track connection on the Powercab. Once programmed and talking, track bus commands will work.

 

You will not get the Peco motor to fire either on the programming track or until the decoder has been programmed to address it. I do know that the high current loads of the solenoids might prevent two motors on one output. CDU's have an output that is literally like a spark and the capacitor that drives it will need some seconds to regenerate.

 

So first, connect the track connections of the DS64 to the programming connections on the powercab. organise a power supply for the DS64. Get the DS64 talking to the Powercab so that each command makes LED's flash. Disconnect the programming connections and connect track power to the DS64, disconnect the other power supply, attach a point motor to connections 1R and 1G and GRND, then use the switch command for point 1. It should move or click. If it works, try another motor on 2G,2R and GRND and so on up to 4. On the second DS64 you will need to re address 1 - 4 to 5 - 8 and so on. don't ask how you do that because i don't know but the Digitrax manual should tell you which CV's to address to give the result you seek. i think the decoder architecture is much the same as a loco decoder.

 

I have made these comments based on a DS64 I have in stock( probably three years old ) and my memory of setting them up but.....I used Loconet and because I chose unwisely in point motors, I abandoned the project to go analog.

[DougN]

Ok I think I might have got to the problem...... the decoder goes straight to the track power (black and red) NOT to the programing track.

 

Address coding:

David is a little out on the above as each out put can have a differnet number IE 1, 22, 35,8 (doesn't need to be consecutive!) From memory all that is required for the address is to push and hold the "ID" button for about 10seconds (thats longer than in the manual if in doubt hold it longer!)then the green LED blinks slowly. Then put the address number into the controler ie 22 then push closed or thrown. then the LED will blink faster..repeat 3 more times each time the led blinks faster Until it goes to a heart beat flash.

 

Operation:

My experience is that they will throw 2 points in one go on one out put...ie a cross over. I am using 2 like this and have had no problems. BUT and here is a important thing the track power has 5amp on it from the Chief!

 

The NCE only puts on about 2.5 to 3amp. on the track. So can you connect the track power to the track inputs on the DS64 and then see if it will kick the peco's over. (Don't for the moment reprogram the addresses)

[Ravenser]

I'm getting increasingly concerned reading this thread....

 

I'm currently in the throes of finishing the wiring on my layout. This will involve, amongst other things, installing the last 3 point motors and installing a DS64 to control the points on one of the boards, replacing an NCE Switch-It which is currently controlling the 2 points so far installed (I will ultimately need 4 point outputs)

 

My system is - an NCE PowerCab. The point motors are in my case Tortoises (or strictly speaking 3 x Tortoises + 1 x Cobalt Blue)

 

The intention is to use an external power supply. Having already read on here that connecting an external 16 V AC supply will destroy the DS64 - contrary to the claims in the documentation that such a supply can be used - I'm arranging a 12V DC external supply, fed off an Express Models 16V AC to 12 V DC stabilised supply converter unit rated at 1 Amp

 

However the implications of what's being said is that accessory decoders may be limited to working with own-brand DCC systems? I had naively assumed that as with loco decoders, NMRA standards ensured that accessory decoders would work with all DCC systems - yet the hint here is that DS64s will only work with a Loconet DCC system??

 

dwhite4dcc

I think you will need to establish whether the NCE is 'talking' to the DS64 and which output you are addressing. DS64's are programmed to addresses 1 to 4 from the factory and only switch commands will be accepted NOT loco ones. I have no experience of the NCE so cannot direct you as to how to access the switch command structure but I do know that these two pieces of hardware need to be programmed to talk to each other and that can only be done on the programming track connection on the Powercab. Once programmed and talking, track bus commands will work.

 

To access the switch command structure on the PowerCab, press the button marked "Select ACCY" as opposed to the one marked "Select Loco". I doubt this is the issue. It will prompt you "enter accessory" and you input the address - here presumably 1 - then press Enter. You will then get the screen Danemouth refers to:

 

The DS64 refers to "Closed" and "Thrown" commands for programming, the Powercab "1 = N (ON)" and 2 = R(OFF)". I have assumed that "Closed" equates to the Powercab's "1 = N (ON)". Am I correct please?

 

 

A difficulty is that if you press say 1 = Normal, and it's already Normal - nothing at all happens . And it's not obvious which way is which....... So you may need two attempts to make something happen to a point . This is based on using Tortoises - I assume solenoid motors show the same pattern

 

According to the Digitrax documentation you change mode from solenoid to stall motor by programming a CV to either Closed or Thrown. Hence it would be good to know if "Thrown" really equals NCE's "2=Reverse" - both should surely idenote the diverging route????

 

DougN

Ok I think I might have got to the problem...... the decoder goes straight to the track power (black and red) NOT to the programing track.

 

dwhite4dcc

So first, connect the track connections of the DS64 to the programming connections on the powercab. organise a power supply for the DS64.

 

On a PowerCab there's no difference. All programming is programming on the main - there's no seperate outputs . I know this as I've just finished wiring in a DPDT switch to disconnect the rest of the layout when programming . So whether the DS64's connected to the track or a programming track or direct to the terminals on the plug in panel should not really make any difference?

 

DougN

The NCE only puts on about 2.5 to 3amp. on the track. So can you connect the track power to the track inputs on the DS64 and then see if it will kick the peco's over]

 

Actually the PowerCab is officially rated for 1.7A max output , but the NCE US two pin transformer supplied with mine has a data panel underneath saying it delivers 1.1A ! Which is why I want an independent power supply for my point decoders and do not want them leaching any of the limited amps off the traction bus - which should supply only the data signal

 

 

For the record NCE have an entirely seperate accessory programming menu structure buried in the programming (Program Accessory on Main) and I have a feeling from memory you may need to work through this. I recall it was necessary to connect a MERG decoder kit directly to the panel - I think that was to avoid programming other things as well

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

However the implications of what's being said is that accessory decoders may be limited to working with own-brand DCC systems? I had naively assumed that as with loco decoders, NMRA standards ensured that accessory decoders would work with all DCC systems - yet the hint here is that DS64s will only work with a Loconet DCC system??

 

No, not at all. it is just that connecting solenoids to the track bus is not the best idea so the DS64 has two auxilliary power inputs to avoid the track bus connection. My own set up involved the use of an uncontrolled 12Vdc output from a Hornby 2000 to power the DS64's, a Loconet connection and outputs connected to switch relays to operate my Tillig points which were fed froma 16volt AC supply also from the Hornby. It was too complicated and expensive and didn't give any real advantage and a lot of trouble so I scrapped it.

 

 

For the record NCE have an entirely separate accessory programming menu structure buried in the programming (Program Accessory on Main) and I have a feeling from memory you may need to work through this. I recall it was necessary to connect a MERG decoder kit directly to the panel - I think that was to avoid programming other things as well

 

As I say, I am no expert on NCE but Digitrax gear is designed for Loconet connection and this gives a great deal of easily accessed extras that straight CV programming might take days to acheive.

[StaffsOatcake]

What I have learnt from this thread. is stick to what you works, ie NCE and Lenz accessory decoders.

[Nigelcliffe]

I'm getting increasingly concerned reading this thread....

 

........

 

However the implications of what's being said is that accessory decoders may be limited to working with own-brand DCC systems? I had naively assumed that as with loco decoders, NMRA standards ensured that accessory decoders would work with all DCC systems - yet the hint here is that DS64s will only work with a Loconet DCC system??

 

I'm also a bit concerned, but not having a DS64 around I can't do any testing for you.

 

 

DCC Accessory Decoders accept their commands from the track, and they are just that, accessory decoders. If they are DCC, they work with any command station.

 

 

There are a few Accessory Control Boards (note I didn't use the word "decoder", though the makers might) which don't take commands from DCC, and a few which can take either DCC (when they become a decoder) or another path. Some of these use LocoNet (Digitrax) network, other S88 Bus, CBUS, etc..

 

 

 

According to the Digitrax documentation you change mode from solenoid to stall motor by programming a CV to either Closed or Thrown. Hence it would be good to know if "Thrown" really equals NCE's "2=Reverse" - both should surely idenote the diverging route????

 

 

I think "thrown" is the same as "2=reverse".

 

On a PowerCab there's no difference. All programming is programming on the main - there's no seperate outputs . I know this as I've just finished wiring in a DPDT switch to disconnect the rest of the layout when programming . So whether the DS64's connected to the track or a programming track or direct to the terminals on the plug in panel should not really make any difference?

 

It makes a difference if there are two or more decoders on the layout and you use anything other than Ops-Mode programming.

If you use the entire layout as a Programming Track (which you can do with a default PowerCab), and put the PowerCab into "service mode programming" (ie. Page, Physical, Direct, etc. and the ability to READ a CV), then you must have ONLY ONE decoder on the entire layout, otherwise it is unclear where programming instructions are going (you reprogram everything!), or which decoder responds to a read request. A turnout decoder is a decoder, so that's your ONE used up. ( There are exceptions to this, if your decoders support locking, but stick to the ONE rule and you won't go far wrong).

 

If you install a DPDT switch to a "programming track" (be it a mechanical one, or NCE's electronic one), then the programming track will only work if you stick to the ONE rule above.

 

 

For the record NCE have an entirely seperate accessory programming menu structure buried in the programming (Program Accessory on Main) and I have a feeling from memory you may need to work through this. I recall it was necessary to connect a MERG decoder kit directly to the panel - I think that was to avoid programming other things as well

 

I think that may be Ops-Mode for Accessory Decoders, which hardly any devices support. I wrote a DecoderPro file for a turnout decoder sometime last year which was the first time I'd met this particular mode of operation.

 

 

 

- Nigel

[DougN]

Hi again, just some comments

Ravenser, I am trying to get to the bottom of the problem at the moment. I will be seeing SRman this weekend no doubt and I will ask him to bring over his NCE and see if we can replicate the same problem on my layout. I think it might have something to do with the current rating... I might point out that the DS64 is a good peice of kit which is why I am so interested in the problems. The Separate supply if power I am also interested in as I have a spare power supply to power mine. the quoe from the manual:"The maximum power required by a single DS64 is 300ma at 14vdc." is pretty specific as to what is required.

 

I havn't had mine working on Loconet yet, (just track power currently). It is one area that I am interested in at the moment for the future operations

 

I have found them to be very good at operating the Peco motors I have on the layout. even 2 at a time!

 

Theoretically they should be able to work directly on the input from the NCE to take instructions. This is an area that I think needs exploring. If SRman and I do find that mine work OK on the NCE it may be a dead decoder or a batch with problems.

 

So in the next few days I will see what I can come up with. Stay positive at the moment.

[AndrewC]

A lot of over complication going on here. Lets start at the beginning.

 

1 seeps are power hungry. You will need the aux power supply. I've found that 12v 300ma just doesn't have enough oomph. 14v 500ma supply works much better.

 

2 setting up a DS64 is simplicity. Forget ops mode, programming, or diving through menus in the NCE programming mode. Leave the Powercab in normal mode as if you were running trains. Just push and hold the ops button on the DS64 unit you want to setup. (wait for the disco lights) You don't need to isolate it or put it on a programming track. Leave it connected to the regular track power from the NCE unit AND connected to the aux power. Once the DS64 is in setup mode it simply accepts any switch command sent from your throttle as a setting. eg: sending switch #7 closed = a factory reset.

 

3 Lets start with a factory reset first. push the ops button on the DS64 until you get the flashing red/green light. On the NCE throttle select switch #7 and send the closed / normal command. Lastly push the ops button again to return the 64 to normal mode.

 

With the Seep attached, send a switch command to switch #1 (assuming you have the Seep wired to the first output of the DS64). The Seep should at least buzz a bit if not throw. If it makes an effort to move then try extending the pulse time on the output. (back into ops mode, select switch #3 and send the closed/normal command) This will give you a 400ms burst instead of the default 100ms. If there is no indication of any power going to the point motor you are going to need to test the outputs with a meter to see if any voltage is actually present in the DS64's outputs. If no voltage is shown when throwing a switch, the output may be damaged.

 

Edit: one last thing. Double check your aux power inputs to make sure you have the polarity right. AX1 = -(neg) AX2 = +(pos)

[Danemouth]

Again, many thanks for all your detailed responses. I have a week off next week and will try all your suggestions. I will report back and let you all know how I faired.

 

A happy holiday weekend to you all,

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

A lot of over complication going on here.

 

1 seeps are power hungry. You will need the aux power supply. I've found that 12v 300ma just doesn't have enough oomph. 14v 500ma supply works much better.

 

 

Connected to what, the motor itself or the DS64?

[AndrewC]

Connected to what, the motor itself or the DS64?

The Aux power supply to the DS64. Either via the jack or the AX1 / AX2 connections. (polarity sensitive)

[SRman]

I spoke to DougN earlier today and it will probably be Sunday before we get together to try anything out with the NCE.

 

Please hold the line, your call is important to us ...

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Following my own dictat ( see below ) try here first DS64 manual in pdf

[DougN]

OK SRman and I had a good modelling session last night. One of the many things we did do was,have some nice fish and chips, compare 2 speakers in a new A2 for installation, run some...(oh I am getting off the point) ... to try the NCE power cab on the layout inlieu of my unit. Connecting the Power cab to its own 1.1.amp supply the DS64 worked and on a double cross over. So we did it 3 times with a loco with sound running. Ummm all seemed well. So the only thing that is the problem I would suggest is you have a dud decoder. Have your experiments and as David above has mentioned reread the instructions have another go. I think if you are a member of a club or local the shop where you purchased them take it in for more hands on advice. I must admit when looking at the NCE panel when controlling the points there is a few more button pushes than mine.

 

Remember a few points on my layout. The DS64's DON'T have aux power they are just to the track power. They have only had the address written to them and no other changes. Here is a photo where it is wired up and in use(no1 son was runningn a tank train as I was writing this!)

 

 

All the best and give us a description when you do get to the bottom of it!

[windmills]

While not necessarily of direct interest to the OP, I have successfully and painlessly set up three Team Digital SMD82 eight output DCC accessory decoders on my 00 gauge layout. I am using NCE Powercab and exclusively Seep Points (around 36 are connected to the SMD82s).

The SMD82s are wired to the track bus, each has its own internal CDU and can easily change two Seep (crossover points) simultaneously.

Based on my experience (I am not an electronics wizard!) I would recommend consideration of this approach to anyone about to embark on DCC control of point motors.

[Phil S]

It may be worth mentioning, although it may not be directly relevant in this case:

If testing/using an Accessory Decoder on its default address, or when set via Programming with CV1 (or513) that there can be 'an offset of 4' between systems on the USER ADDRESS displayed. This is because some designers started with CV1=0 for 1-4, and others CV1=1 for 1-4. Therefore, when checking a system programmed this way, always try 4 below and 4 above as well... and remember this if using 1 system to program for another 8-).

 

{This is because the numbers offered to the USER are not necessarily the same those used via the 'dcc waveform'/nmra docs - either because of the choice caused by starting with 0, or 1, or the other 'variation' of handling the addresses in '4''s with 8 sub addresses ... as seen by the CV value programmed into 1 or 513, and by SOME controller designs which offer a 'page' = 1 decoder, with 4x 2-way outputs / 8 on-off outputs per screen page}

[ An example of this: The Dynamis quotes operating 25 decoders: giving points 1-100 ... the assumption, based on the nmra document, being an accessory decoder ALWAYS has 4 output pairs which is not always the case!!!]

 

This situation is AVOIDED by those accessory decoders which have a 'LEARN' button: once pressed and in 'learning' mode, they will use the next number sent by the controller eg '57' (left/right. normal/reverse) ... I usually repeat the left-right-left cycle resending the same address, as with the Lenz LS150 this gives me immediate confirmation by hearing (and seeing) the point operate on my chosen number. Note that some decoders will ONLY accept programming in 'blocks of 4': ie 1-4, 5-8, etc, whilst others are freely programmable output-by-output [but usually in a different programming mode ... in the case of the LS150, reached by further learn-button pushes]

 

[i use a mixture of Roco, Massoth, Trix, LGB and previously ZTC controllers, with Lenz and ESU accessories, and 1 Hornby original accessory decoder (original default address 61-64)]