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Ravenser

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Ravenser last won the day on January 5 2011

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  1. Nothing is currently showing on the Dapol shop under OO coaches Dapol OO coaches which is why I made the comment. They have the tooling, but apparently no current stock (And again, the Toplights are hardly a "budget" product. One suite of tooling doesn't really allow you to make a budget play in OO coaches)
  2. The Hornby OO 66 - with all its limitations - is currently £96. It hardly compares with a full fat model like the Hattons/Accurascale 66 and I wouldn't buy one, but for those whose main focus is low price , it shows an edge. I was responding to a post which argued that Hornby has nothing much for the budget modeller and which was touting forty year old secondhand locos off ebay at an alleged £30 a pop as blow away competition . Accurascale are most certainly not competing with that
  3. The bulk of Dapol's range is in either N gauge or O . I'm not questioning the quality of Dapol's OO models, merely pointing out that 4mm isn#'t their major focus. They currently have no OO coaches at all (it has been suggested that the ex Mainline/Airfix moulds may be life expired) and a large part of their OO wagon offering is ex Hornby Dublo/Wrenn mouldings. Their OO loco range is modest, and it certainly isn't aimed at the budget market. The 68 and 21 are not competing with 40 year old second hand off ebay If Dapol had a "budget/entry" range in 4mm, it lay in the old Airfix/Mainline coaches, and the ex Wrenn wagons. The first seem to be no more, the second are being knocked out at £12.45. That they seem to have let the OO coaches go completely suggests they may not be so interested in 4mm or budget 4mm On the other hand they are most emphatically targeting the "affordable" sector in N . N gauge 66s at a hundred quid and Class 33s for £80m have been a staple of the Dapol stand at large shows over the last few years, (Farish locos seem around £150) and they've been selling bogie wagons in bundles or singly at prices equating to £17-£20 a vehicle off the stand - bogie Farish wagons seem to go for about £40-£45 Dapol are a very different animal in the N gauge market from the 4mm market. In 4mm they are a niche or bit player brand. There does seem to be an "affordable" market, and what Dapol have done in N with relatively modern tooling (10-20 year old) suggests an alternative strategy to chasing the top end in spec and pricing. But its not really their game in 4mm
  4. Nobody other than Hornby caters for that sector. The fact that Railroad keeps running and running , the fact that all those Lima models that "everyone" groaned loadly when they brought back 20 years ago - "why do they bother??🙄" - keep selling and have done for 20 years tells a story. And the whole TT120 venture is aimed squarely at that market. £130 gets you a DCC ready Class 66. £250 gets you the Scotsman set with a loco, 3 coaches, track and a controller Scotsman set Bachmann seem to be maximising revenue in the face of restricted capacity at Kadar factories (whether because they can't pay the going rate for more production slots given that British RTR prices are below the world norm, or because capacity is tight anyway, we don't know ) . Rapido and Accurascale are certainly not targetting the budget sector . Dapol are not very interested in 4mm (they certainly target the budget sector in N) Hornby are the only serious player in this sector. Buying bits of second hand stuff off ebay is an option, but you are buying a series of pigs in a poke : some of the stuff might not work or be a bit battered round the edges...
  5. At one level, the commercial success or otherwise of this model is not really our problem as modellers. (At another level, it is not in our interests to see manufacturers weakened/fail, and the commercial success of all significant RTR manufacturers is a positive for the hobby) So one way to view this is "what new resources do we have, what new opportunities does this open up for us?" . What have we as modellers got this Saturday that we didn't have last Saturday? Since last Saturday we already had a state of the art Brush 2 in OO imminently available for those who don't want to buy the current Hornby model, or require varients not done by Hornby , I'm struggling to see anything. Which of these two new models will "win out" is a different question. It will probably take a couple of years after release before we can say that a model has or hasn't been commercially successful , and even then it's not clear cut. I'm sure there will be people still ready to argue that Hattons' 66 was a commercial success as a project Someone said that Accurascale announced their model just on 2 years ago. In which case they've had 2 years to mop up demand for a new Brush 2 and lock it in by means of pre-orders. Why people would cancel those pre-orders in order to buy this instead isn't obvious. I'm not clear why it is preferable for Brush 2s to get the Bachmann Treatment as opposed to the Accurascale Treatment (or vice versa, though AS have been out in the market with this for a long time now) The only thing that has been mentioned so far is DCC auto-uncoupling. Yes I could find a use for that - but I'm a Kadee user, and I presume this is a mechanised tensionlock. Otherwise - I was already struggling to find a reason to spend £170 on an AS Brush 2 , even though the layout uses two Class 31s (which I already have...). I find it an even bigger struggle to find a reason to buy this instead. I'm open to more Type 2s, but that involves making use of the moderate pile of stuff/bits/old locos I've already got We can come back in summer 2026 to discuss whether this was the right commercial decision for Bachmann. In the meantime the questions seem to be what extra does this bring to the table for modellers, and is this model noticably better than the Accurascale one?
  6. Dapol LMS CK rework My own rework of the Dapol CK. Sadly all the pictures have been lost , so here are some from file
  7. Since it's an imperial scale 1/10" to the foot, this should be 2.15" long over headstocks
  8. Has anyone noticed that the bauxite wagon has top doors , like an MEO, 24.5T - but the other two do not? So two bodies have been tooled up The PO version really ought to be pre-nationalisation and therefore a GW dia N32 "Felix Pole" mineral , built for hire-purchase to persuade S Wales colliery owners to modernise. It does not carry a P -series number. Dia N32 is the basis for the old OO 21T minerals from Hornby and Airfix in the 1970ps The grey version carries a number BR do not seem to have used, according to Rowland's appendices: no numbers between B314999 and B 333000 were issued . It could be an N32 numbered as P200781, or it could be a welded wagon from the 1951 build to dia 1/107, B201000-B202499 The bauxite wagon should by the number be to dia 1/119 , with top flaps , lot 3439, Derby 1962
  9. With a significant number of new modellers coming into the hobby, you would want them to benefit from being able to go to decen t sized shows , see insipirational layouts, come across interesting and specialist traders , and so on and so forth. It would be nice to think they would have some kind of exhibition circuit to enjoy , as people did before the pandemic. The "circuit" has seen a sharp contraction. The hobby - in terms of modellers - hasn't . We hear that clubs are no longer so interested in putting on large shows or even that it isn'r really reasonable to expect them to do in the way they did 10 years ago. If clubs are stepping back from organisating this kind of event , then we aren't really in a position to be too picky about who we want to organise large shows, and the fine detail of rules of engagement. Assuming the hobby still wants this kind of event, then to a degree we have to accept what is workable for the people still willing to organise them.
  10. A very fine piece of modelling with a finesse and realistic muted pallette not always associated with this scale. Inspirational
  11. As someone currently building a layout based on a wagon works, this thread is very useful Some notes on the subject I had as a draft blog popst that never gotr finished : This post is mainly by way of a clipboard for various links to material on prototype wagon repair facilities in Britain on the post-steam railway. That falls into two distinct periods - the modern image BR era (c1965-c1995), and the post-privatisation era (c1995 to present). Trying to cover nearly 60 years during which a lot has changed on the railways may be a mug's game, but I'm suddenly very aware just how large and how obscure this subject actually is. How can an entire sector of the railway industry - and one that is very much still with us - have gone largely under the radar for over half a century?? Some links to websites of current players: WH Davis "Britain's last remaining independent wagon builder" . Workshops at Langwith Jnc, Shirebrook on the Robin Hood line. Some site photos Davis Wagon Services wagon repair division of WH Davis. Head office at Immingham just outside the Dock area and just down the road from the head office of my late employer... I am not clear if they have any actual rail connected facility in Immingham, or whether the boasted 9 outstation hubs nationwide amount to anything more than lockup compounds with a stores warehouse/office and a couple of vans to attend rail vehicles on site. Possibly any heavy repairs would be carried out at the parent company's Shirebrook works. Harry Needle Railroad Co recently opened wagon repair/stock storage facility at Worksop, redevelopment of former EWS/DB Schenker wagon repair depot (closed 2015). Photos on website. Paul Barlett's wagon site - central page for industrial locations Covers: BR workshops: Burton wagon works, Carlisle Currock wagon works EG Steele : Hamilton wagon works (still in Baker 10th ed 2004) Marcrofts : Stoke (still open 2018), Swansea, Radstock (closed 1988), Burry Port, Healey Mills (still in Baker 10th ed), March. Powell Duffryn : Cardiff Maindy (still open 1992) Procor : Chas Roberts Horbury (still in Baker 10th ed as Bombadier Procor) , Gloucester South Staffs Wagon Works: Tipton (closed 1984) Standard Wagon: Heywood (still open 1989) ; Reddish (still open 1984) Marcrofts: Acquisition by EWS 2006 - Competition Commission report no longer available and OFT document Radstock works site - link has disappeared Warrington - wagon repair sidings (Baker 10th ed) Crewe Gresty Rd (BR) Operator at Ashford Wagon repair 80s - 90s highlights that tanks needed specialist attention at a works Other known closed wagon sites: BR : Ipswich wagon works (closed mid 1980s) ; Peterborough Crescent Wharf (in Baker 10th ed, to EWS - now closed?); York (to Thrall, closed by 2004) Wagon Repair Ltd : Chesterfield works (closed 1988?)
  12. BR had 263 of them . You've got a long way to go. But you've got 2 more than IM had in 1979
  13. My one concern would be that if that cut-out square is where the door swings, the lift out section would block opening of the door. If anything happened to you while playing trains, nobody could get in to help you..
  14. The largest association in England is CMRA . The website lists 117 member clubs/societies, assuming I haven't miscounted CMRA membership For decades before the pandemic, they organised a well-regarded sizeable 2 day show at St Albans and latterly Stevenage (when it was my nearest large show) . It has folded, firstly because David Crossley the show manager is well into his 70s, had a stroke several years before Covid , and didn't want to do it any more. Despite several appeals over several years nobody stepped forward to replace him. And the Stevenage venue has lost its car park, a new venue would be needed - and nobody seems interested in finding one. A General Meeting was called in April 2022. It was possible to join by Zoom. There were I think 3 people in the room, and a total attendance of 12 (out of 117 members), with a few apologies from other organisations. I was one of the 12, on Zoom. There was no real discussion about or interest in reviving the show - just "no show manager, no venue, so no prospect of holding a show" With Stevenage and Peterborough gone there are now no decent sized shows in Eastern England between the M25 and Spalding. It was said that ending delegate meetings had been a mistake, but in the last 2 years I'm not aware of any further meetings being called. The website is still being updated, fliers for shows are still being circulated and I presume the exhibition barrier is still available. The combined populations of Hertfordshire, Essex, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire are over 4.5 million - not far shy of Scotland. There are no two day shows in the area, and in Essex only a limited number of small 1 day events I suspect it would take active support from 5-6 clubs to revive the show somewhere in that area. At least I think the former SAMRAC , which ran a show at Crawley , had about that number of members By the support of 5-6 clubs I mean that the club membership would need to want such a show and be willing actively to make it happen. No club committee member is going to volunteer their club unless they are aware that their members actively want a show to happen. A lot of members of those 117 organisations must read RMWeb. If they want this situation to change , I suggest they find out who is their club's CMRA rep and speak to him. If the response to enquiries as to who is the representative is "So are you volunteering to do the job??" you might as well call the bluff and say yes. It is not particularly onerous, especially at present
  15. For the avoidance of doubt, as the lawyers say, I’m convinced there are more people in the hobby now than five years ago. The TV programmes before the pandemic led to people taking up the hobby, and quite a lot of folk became active railway modellers during the pandemic. There’s been gloomy speculation that the last 18 months may have burnt them off, but the reports that some clubs are recruiting strongly shows they are still there and getting more involved in the hobby. A whole new commercial scale ought to be a big positive – reportedly it’s selling well, and seemingly not to existing modellers. I’m more confident about the long term survival of the hobby than I’d have been 5-6 years ago. The state of the organised hobby – things like clubs, societies, the exhibition circuit, the trade, magazines and social media, even the manufacturers, what you might call the “structure” of the hobby, is a different thing. Media seem to be doing well, but some things, especially the exhibition circuit, have taken something of a battering recently. Hattons‘ closure is desperately bad for the large number of people employed in the business, in an area that’s been a byword for high unemployment and economic depression throughout my lifetime. But I can see at least 3 major factors which seem to be unique to Hattons, so I don’t really think it says anything about the RTR market in general. If you want to be a big boxshifter, being cut off from supplies of the second biggest brand and having supplies of the biggest limited is a pretty fatal obstacle. Losing Warley is a different matter. It isn’t an isolated example as the demise of Imrex was in its day. Feb 2024 RM lists 25 shows and 2 open days, over 5 ½ columns and 6 weeks. In Feb 2019 it listed 45 exhibitions and 5 open days over 10 columns. In my area at least, most exhibitions seem to be rather smaller than they were, so this is a contraction of around 50%. I thought the circuit was over extended and some pruning and regrowth would be a good thing – but this goes far beyond that, and there are only limited signs of regrowth two years into “normality”. Perhaps my patch is badly affected, but my nearest 2 day show is now over 50 miles away. Nevertheless I think much of the exhibition discussion is back to front. The common view is that exhibitions exist to fund the clubs, who would not survive without the profits they make . Here’s Pacific231G in the Warley thread: The pandemic has proved this isn’t true. If clubs needed a tidy profit from a show to survive, then clubs would have been folding left, right and centre over the last 4 years. As far as I’m aware hardly any have gone under. In the South East I’ve heard a rule of thumb is that the overall profit is roughly equivalent to the profit on catering. The result is that lots of clubs have found they can downsize the show radically and still make almost the same surplus. I first heard this from a Colchester club member when they lost the venue for their well-regarded 2 day show. A 1 day show in a much smaller venue, he said, would generate almost as much money with a lot less work. That show then dwindled away – the club is still going but they no longer hold exhibitions. Typeapproval tells a similar tale of Ipswich on p2 of this thread: IRMA have not held a large exhibition for nearly 20 years to the best of my knowledge. But they are still going, and after a 5 year hiatus are planning a small local show in November And PaulRhB says something similar of Salisbury in the Warley thread: So clubs can easily downsize the show and retreat into a comfort zone. And they don’t generally go back into the bigtime But layouts like Baojaio and Copenhagen Fields are not going to small one day shows in village halls. Larger layouts need the larger 2 day shows which seem to be falling by the wayside. Societies won’t be going to such shows either – and in my experience a society’s membership footprint is largely determined by the shows it attends. The two main activities of 21st century clubs are putting on an exhibition and building club exhibition layouts to take to others’ shows. If Middlemarch MRC downsize their show to 6 layouts in a village hall, they are relying on Gricerville MRC, Much Binding in the Marsh MRS and Madderport Modellers continuing to organise large shows for Middlemarch’s layouts to go to. If Gricerville, Much Binding and Madderport also downsize – everybody’s layout groups are all stuffed. So are all the people who build private exhibition layouts I see no sign exhibitions are disappearing because clubs are dying. But there’s a long term risk that clubs could start to wither if the exhibition circuit shrivels up. If there’s no point building exhibition layouts because there’s nowhere much to exhibit them – what’s the point of being in the club? Many modellers join clubs precisely to get access to a much bigger layout than they could build at home, run their stock on it and go out on the circuit. If the club can’t provide the layout some of them will already drift off. If exhibition layouts become an endangered breed, some may be lost to the hobby. I think the YouTube debate is also back to front. Shows are not disappearing because the gate is ebbing away and the numbers no longer add up (which is what killed IMREX) . Shows are disappearing because clubs are no longer prepared to put them on. There are plenty of punters: some shows like Railex and Bognor are crowded – as you might expect if the hobby has grown but the number of shows has halved. To make an exhibition video, you first need an exhibition. If there are hardly any decent-sized shows, then the YouTubers will have nothing to video .. I take PMP’s point that shows need not be organised by clubs – they could be organised by groups of friends. York is the classic example. Or by a federation of clubs like AMRSS and Model Rail Scotland. Or by a preserved railway, who own their venue. Or by a magazine or commercial organisation. Or a society. Unfortunately, for pretty well every “business model” I can think of a 2 day show organised that way that’s recently folded… At the least, we need to stop griping about shows being organised by someone other than a club. It isn’t taking the bread out of clubs’ mouths, and in the present climate we need to be grateful for anyone who will organise a 2 day show
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