BR London Midland Region 1950s -80s

[Guest Phil]

Wonderful stuff Arthur as always.

 

As Mike said - love the dock tank waddling along.

 

Mallard on the mainline. Didn't realise she was still active in the 1960s.

 

Fascinating how different regions stock floated around. I'm not referring to the excursions from yorkshire - more the stock hauled by the Mickey Mouse tank.

[edward66]

Going back to 47201 I remember it arriving at Lancaster shed around 1951 or 52 presumably from Kentish Town and it still had its condensing gear. This was probably removed at its next works visit. It was used as shed pilot for many years and outlived all the other Johnson pre Jinties being finally withdrawn in I think 1966. Sad indeed that it was not preserved. From a modelling aspect as well as the flat backed bunker the side tanks took a step up by the cab front so were higher than those on the Fowler locos.

It had a lever reverser and I remember seeing it on the greasy shed rails with wheels spinning in one direction as it slid along in the other as the driver threw it in reverse.

Lancaster kept the same allocation of Jinties for many years, the first to go was 47639 which was one with no vacuum brake pipes and had 3 link couplings, it was stored at Green Ayre for some time along with one of the Stanier 0-4-4Ts in the 41900 series, possibly 41904.

 

Edward

[ArthurK]

TREALES SEPTEMBER 1964

Moving forward to September 1964 the Illumination specials are still rolling in. But now the Deisels are beginning to may an appearance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first to appear was the inevitable Class 5 No. 45064. Not too sure about the shed code but it appears to be 2E which at that time would be Northampton. It appears to have moved around a bit, Ian Allan books give it at 1E Bletchley in 1962 and at 21B Bescot in 1961

 

And yet another "5" this one is 45426. I am pretty sure that this one hails from 5A Crewe.

 

The next two to appear were both hauled by Type 4 Brush Diesels the first was D1613 in the early two tone green livery.

 

Following behind was D1516 in the same livery.

 

Last of this batch was - yes you guessed it - another class 5 this time No. 45062. The shed plate is missing on this loco. A year early it had been at Burton.

[ArthurK]

TREALES SEPTEMBER 1966

Moving on again to September 1966 we are again at Treales awaiting more specials into Blackpool.

 

The first to arrive was a DMU with Specials Code 2P63 pasted inside the cab window.

 

That was followed by LMS Ivatt 4MT No. 3019. It doesn't carry any code But it boasts XP headcode and was certainly on a passenger excursion. It appears to have a 10B shed code which at that time would have been Preston.

 

Class 5 45326 running light from Blackpool.

 

Today's Special LNER A3 4472 "Flying Scotsman" hauling the "Blackpool Belle", A sevice train passes on its way to Preston.

 

4472 Again. At this time it was running with the twin tenders. After its arrival at BlacKpool North it was turned on the Poulton triangle for the return journey.

[wcml61]

Hi, I'm quite new to posting here. Love your photos, thank you so much for posting, they're very helpful.

 

I am in the process of planning a model of Preston station in 1961 and 1967, and have a quick question that people familiar with the area may be able to answer. I have a BR standard 4MT tank, Midland '3F' 0-6-0 (tender engine), Class 110 3-car DMU, and an Ivatt 2MT tank. Don't really want to get rid of any of them! But would any of these types have been seen at Preston in either 1961 or 1967? I believe Ivatt 2MT 41205 was shedded at Fleetwood, would this have worked local trains into Preston? The Scottish 4MT tanks at Lostock never worked in the area so don't count...

 

Many thanks if anyone able to help, and apologies for hijacking the thread a bit!

 

Paul

[caradoc]

Wonderful pictures Arthur, thanks for posting them. They are evocative of a very different railway I was unfortunately too young to experience. Can anyone say if the first coach behind D1613 is Crimson & Cream, or as looks more likely to me, Chocolate & Cream ?

Thanks again, Matt.

[Fat Controller]

Wonderful pictures Arthur, thanks for posting them. They are evocative of a very different railway I was unfortunately too young to experience. Can anyone say if the first coach behind D1613 is Crimson & Cream, or as looks more likely to me, Chocolate & Cream ?

Thanks again, Matt.

I don't think BR used the coach roundel with crimson and cream stock. The 'X' letter in the headcodes is a bit odd, being used normally for exceptional loads or trains that mustn't deviate from their planned route without the permission of Control- might it be something to do with the lack of drivers passed on Brush 4s if the relief took place at an unplanned location?

[ArthurK]

Can anyone say if the first coach behind D1613 is Crimson & Cream, or as looks more likely to me, Chocolate & Cream ?

Thanks again, Matt.

Just looked at the original and blown it up. That coach is definitely from the Western region. It has a "W" prefix to the number. Sorry can't decipher the number.

[Guest Phil]

I don't think BR used the coach roundel with crimson and cream stock. The 'X' letter in the headcodes is a bit odd, being used normally for exceptional loads or trains that mustn't deviate from their planned route without the permission of Control- might it be something to do with the lack of drivers passed on Brush 4s if the relief took place at an unplanned location?

 

 

 

From my research 1Xxx was a very popular headcode for special trains - much moreso than the "oglo" purpose we remember it for FC. In the 1960s many of the "seaside" trains and excursions were "X"s IMHO.

[ArthurK]

KIRKHAM

Two miles to the west of Treales lies the town of Kirkham. Here the lines to Blackpool branch into three routes. The most Southerly of these heads south to meet the Ribble Estuary at Lytham then follows the coast through Ansdell & Fairhaven, St Annes, Squires Gate to Blackpool south and Central. The central route went direct to Blackpool South and Central. The northerly route went to Blackpool North with a branch leading to Fleetwood.

During the Lancashire "Wakes" weeks(when each cotton town closed for a weeks break) the traffic into Blackpool was extremely heavy and the sidings near to the shed at Blackpool South quickly overflowed with stock and engines. Similar congestion occured at Blackpool North. The traffic reduced in the fifties but there was some compensation from late August though into October when many flocked to the Blackpool illuminations. There was still many trains for the "Wakes" and also traffic from Glasgow during the Scottish Holiday week. These latter trains could not go direct from the North into Blackpool but had to make a 180 degree turn via the Farington curve to enter Preston a second time then West to Blackpool. These trains were often headed by one of the not too popular "Clans" but I was not lucky enough to photograph one of these.

Just to west of the staion at kirkham was an ideal spot for photography and it was here the the next batch of Photos were taken. The date is September 1963.

 

In the first we have Class 5 45094 bursting under the road bridge by the station which was accessed by steps from the bridge. You may recognise this loco from the shots at Lostock Hall when I photographed it for a second time that day.

 

This was followed by Jubilee No. 45581 "Bihar and Orissa"

 

Patriot 4-6-0 No. 45526 "Morecambe and Heysham. Two shots of this.

 

 

Outward bound from Blackpool Another Class 5 No. 44664. It was raining quite heavily at this point.

 

BR Ivatt 2-6-2T no 84011 with a train, probably from Fleetwood

[ArthurK]

KIRKHAM

 

Following on from the above posting the first two of this batch were taken on the same wet day.

 

The first is LMS 4F No. 44492. For some reason I didn't see vey many of these in this area. It was still raining!

 

Yet another class 5, these I did see a lot of in this area! This one is 45077 emerging from the station bridge. This one is a local - shed code 24E Blackpool.

 

Later that same month. September 1963, the weather was better with a bit of sunshine!

 

Class 5 45337.

 

Class 5 again No. 44889. Its home shed was 24B Rose Grove. As you will note the full name for this station was 'Kirkham and Wesham'

 

Is there no end to these? Class 5 No. 44940. Again I believe it was another Rose Grove engine.

 

Another class 5 but this time the BR version No 75049

 

Yet another No 44730. This was definitly a local from Blackpool shed.

[buckdancer]

Superb again Arthur!

 

The "Ultimate Allocations" book tells the following story at the time of the photos....

45064 was a 2F Bescot (Walsall) engine in Sept 1964 - I know from personal experience that the people of Walsall loved their trips to Blackpool!

45426 was a 5A Crewe North engine in Sept 1964.

45062 moved from 16C Derby to 16F Burton during Sept 1964.

45326 was an 11A Carnforth engine in 1952 through the period of the photo in September 1966 - it only had 2 sheds in it's BR days.

45094 was an 8A Edge Hill engine in Sept 1963 - it again wasn't a wanderer as it only had 2 sheds in it's BR days.

45581 was a 25G Farnley Junction engine in 1952 through the period of the photo in Sept 1963 - another non-wanderer - it only had 2 sheds in it's BR days.

45526 was a one shed wonder in BR times! 12A Carlisle Upperby.

44664 was a 24E Blackpool engine in Sept 1963.

44492 was a 9F Heaton Mersey engine in Sept 1963.

45077 was a 10C Fleetwood engine in Sept 1963.

45337 was a 27C Southport engine in Sept 1963.

44889 was a 24C Lostock Hall engine in Sept 1963.

44940 was a long time 24B Rose Grove engine in Sept 1963.

44730 was a 28A Blackpool engine when built in 1949 and only escaped in 1964 to go to 8B Warrington Dallam.

[ArthurK]

I find it very confusing keeping track of shed codes in the 1960s. The area codes appear to have changed almost daily! To me Blackpool will always be known as 24E and Fleetwood as 24F! These sheds and rest of the 24x cover the Lancshire district East to Accrington 24A, Rose Grove and Lostock Hall and North to Carnforth.

 

Studying the photos again 45077 is 24F (Fleetwood) and 45094 definitely 8A which tie in with the above posting.

[ArthurK]

KIRKHAM

 

Moving on to October 1963 the Illuminations traffic continued unabated.

 

But first an outward bound in charge of BR 5MT no. 75033.

 

A Blackpool bound train with an unidentfied LMS class 5 at the head.

 

Jubilee No 45661 "Vernon" with special 1P30.

 

LNER designed B1s were common on these trains. This one No. 61194 has the 41D Shed plate, Canklow. The train is most probaqbly from the Sheffield area.

 

Another outbound train this time with Jubilee 45717 "Dauntless" at its head. Note the Gresley Steel Articulated Twin. The first carries the number E16817E

 

Local services operated as normal in the midst of all the specials. Here BR 84017 has a train from Fleetwood. There were five or six at that shed.

 

 

Brittania No. 70039 "Sir Christopher Wren" with 1X24. The first coach is a Gresley six compartment brake.

 

[Guest Phil]

That first coach behind the Mickey Mouse tank is interesting.

An eastern region allocated ex LMS coach

[ArthurK]

MORE AT KIRKHAM

 

This first photo really belongs to the previous posting as it is October 1963. It is of course another B1 (second that day!). it is 61121 shed code 36A Doncaster.

 

We now move on again to August 1964. the first that I saw that day was jubilee 45739 "Ulster". I cannot decipher the shed but a year earlier it was at Leeds Holbeck.

 

This was followed by Class 5 45329 on the 'fast' line. Again I do not know the shed but It suspect that it is not from too far away.

 

Outward bound on the slow Another class 5 45218.

 

Also outward bound was this Crab No 42705. The first coach is from the scottish region.

 

Again outward bound this time on the slow was Class 5 No 44686. This was not the normal class five there were only two like this. As well as the Caprotti valve gear it also has raised running plate and double chimney. I count myself lucky to have got this.

 

As usual the local service train was in charge of a BR 2-6-2T. This time it was 84016.

 

[buckdancer]

Thanks again Arthur!

I remember my first spotting visit to Blackpool.

It would have been late summer in the early sixties - a youth club coach from Darlaston in the West Midlands.

On arrival it was simply stunning to see the scale of operations - there were locos and carriages everywhere.

I can't think of anything I subsequently saw to rival this.

It must have been a full blown military operation to get everything in and then out again.

This was Blackpool Central/South - I didn't even know there was also a shed at Blackpool North at this stage.

For your pictures Arthur, I've looked in the book again and found the following....

45739 allocated to 56A Wakefield.

45329 8C Speke Junction

45218 10F Rose Grove

42705 26C Bolton

44686 8M(!) Southport

[Leander]

Post Rochdale exhibition, I haven't been following this thread as closely as I should so this is by way of catching up with a few observations. You continue to astound me with the quality and variety of your material Arthur. It certainly ranks very highly and is on a par with Peter Fitton's and Frank Dean's coverage of the Fylde published in the Foxline 'Journeys by Excursion Train' series of books by Stuart Taylor.

 

So, catching up on a few points raised. The first coach in the Brush Type 4 (Class 47) hauled train at Treales certainly looks like it's in chocolate & cream livery (perhaps Robert Carroll could confirm this if he happens upon this thread).

 

The 412xx series of 2-6-2Ts were at Fleetwood in 1959 and worked through to Preston on Fleetwood-Preston local trains but were transfered away in favour of the Standard 840xx locos. These were all push-pull fitted for working the Blackpool North - Fleetwood shuttles. However, the first of these had arrived in 1955 so they operated side by side in the late 1950s. I think you could get away with one in 1961 but not for the later date.

 

The train indication lettering in the 1960s was a bit different from what they meant later on. Inter-regional excursions were given the letter 'X'. So any non-timetabled trains from regions other than the LMR had a 1X** identity.

 

For excursion trains originating on the LMR either the letter 'T' or 'Z' would have been used. These seemed to me at the time to have been used indiscriminately but I suppose someone with greater knowledge may be able to point out why one letter was used rather than the other.

 

It was a requirement that all trains passing through Preston on summer Saturdays carried its train indication board on the loco's front. This applied to both steam and diesel hauled trains (including DMUs as seen in Arthur's photo) and was to help with train regulation. The coaching stock on Blackpool excursions usually carried the letter too. This was often posted in a window of at least one (or more) brake coaches, no doubt to assist the shunters at Bloomfield Road and Spen Dyke sort out what was what and which was which so stock could be marshalled correctly for the return working.

 

As an aside, ECS trains working out of the Fylde in order to relieve the shortage of carriage accommodation often ended up at places such as Lostock Hall or Horwich. In these working the initial letter '1' was replaced by a '3'; therefore 1Z35 would carry 3Z35 and so on. Sometimes two train sets of coaches were combined into a single ECS train and a WD would clank its way south with 19 or 20 on!

[ArthurK]

Thanks for the favourable comments. I am afraid some of the earlier shots taken with my older cameras are a bit grainy. I did my own D&P in those days and it wasn't always consistant. Nevertheless I am glad that every one seems to like my offerings.

 

The are still a few of Kirkham to come then we will move to Blackpool but that is all static stuff!

[ArthurK]

MORE AT KIRKHAM

 

Brittania No. 70035 "Rudyard Kipling"

 

LMS Class 5 No 44947 with special 2P67. Shed code appears to be 10B which was the older code for Preston.

 

Jubilee 45703 "Thunderer". As remarked above the special code is pasted inside the window of the Brake but I cannot quite decipher it. This coach has a Scottish region number.

 

Another Jubilee 45622 "Nyasaland" with 1M06. The 'M' is an inverted 'W', must have been short of 'M's. I think this was a Leeds area loco. The first coach is LNER first of Thompson design. The second is an LNER Gresley First.

 

I didn't see many freights on these outings but here a WD No. 90413 is returning empties, no doubt from the power station at Burn Naze.

 

Class 5 No. 44730 again. It sports a 10B shedplate although that was outdated by 1964.

[jamie92208]

Great photos which really take me back to my childhood in the early 60s. The photo of 46433 is at Lancaster Green Ayre shed with the electrified line curving away over the bridge on the line to Morecambe - this now carries the main road.

 

All those photos on shed were taken at Green Ayre shed. The LNWR shed had been closed since I think the 1920's. If by any chance you ahve any more photos taken on shed I would be very grateful as I am building a model of Green Ayre in 7mm. There is a thread entitled Lancaster Green Ayre in layout topics.

 

Thanks

 

Jamie Guest

[Leander]

10B was Blackpool at the time of these photos Arthur. It replaced 24E. 10A was Carnforth, 10C Fleetwood, 10D Lostock Hall (among others). So 44730 was a local engine returning home and, if memory serves, an awful long time at Blackpool, possibly until closure.

[Leander]

Arthur

 

The date of the photos in the rain at Kirkham was probably Saturday 7th September. The Preston 1963 Survey of the West Coast Sightings Sheets, published by the Steam Railway Research Society/Chris Coates gives the following workings:

 

1P30 45094 10.35 Manchester Victoria to Blackpool ©; 8 coaches; 11.31-11.32 at Preston

1X05 45581 Leeds/Bradford - Blackpool (doesn't specify which station or load); 11.54 at Preston

1P28 45526 9.40 Crewe - Blackpool North; 9 coaches; Non-stop through Preston (2 mins. early at 11.02)

1J36 44664 11.45 Blackpool © - Manchester Victoria; 9 coaches; 12.39 at Preston (6 minutes late)

44492 Light engine; Preston 13.02

2P64 45077 11.15 Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North TC to Fleetwood; 12.30 at Preston (12 mins. late)

 

So why was 45526 crossing over from the Down Fast to the Down Slow (Coast) line if it was heading for North?

 

On the earlier posting 70039 was on the Lincoln train (1X24). I've seen a photo of it at Sowerby Bridge on a Photopic site. I saw it later in the afternoon on Lostock Hall shed. Also seen that summer on the same were working were 70011 Hotspur and 70037 Hereward the Wake. Very rare Immingham Brits at that time but later to become commonplace when they got moved over to the LMR.

 

Great stuff!

[ArthurK]

KIRKHAM AGAIN

Now that RMWEB is alive again I will add to the last posting. The Black & Whites were taken on the same day.

 

 

Clkass 5 44836. Sorry can't decipher the special code pasted in the window.

 

Jubilee 45554 "Ontario". Shed code not very clear but it looks like 5A Crewe. It and the next two have all received their 'not under the wires' stripes.

 

Another Jubilee 45664 "Nelson" with 1P34

 

Patriot 45531 "Sir frederrick Harrison".

[pH]

Excellent pictures as always, Arthur. An interesting combination for a Jubilee in that last set - 45664 with a yellow stripe and no AWS.