RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted September 30, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 30, 2009 We always use a stronger wire (piano wire) on our tortoise motors - here it is ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Hi Dave Why do you need thicker wire? Never had a problem with the supplied one TBH, what am I missing? Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Hi Dave Why do you need thicker wire? Never had a problem with the supplied one TBH, what am I missing? Cheers Jim I could see the need if you use Peco points with the spring left in place but i'm with Jim in having no problems with the original wire for throwing a finescale point with a decent bit of pressure on the blade once thrown. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 It depends on the point being used, the correct use of the fulcrum and the board thickness. In many cases you can use the supplied wire but when experiencing problems with the Tortoise not throwing the tie-bar the first redress is to replace the wire with a thicker one. I'm afraid I do it as routine - for the sake of a few pence it is just peace of mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 It depends on the point being used, the correct use of the fulcrum and the board thickness. In many cases you can use the supplied wire but when experiencing problems with the Tortoise not throwing the tie-bar the first redress is to replace the wire with a thicker one. I'm afraid I do it as routine - for the sake of a few pence it is just peace of mind. If you are fitting them to 0 Gauge points you most likely will have to replace the wire, even Circuitron say that and the thicker the baseboard makes it even more likely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dikitriki Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 If you are fitting them to 0 Gauge points you most likely will have to replace the wire, even Circuitron say that and the thicker the baseboard makes it even more likely. Hi Stephen What do you recommend replacing the wire with for 7mm pointwork? Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 See image above - that works for all points I have used on O gauge Marcway, OO gauge Peco, and N & OO9 gauge Peco 20-25 swg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iploffy Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I personally prefer to surface mount my tortoises as the thickness of the baseboards is 18mm as I am using a mixture of Markway and Peco points I found the instuctions stated you may have to change the wire as I model in 7 mm so I have replaced it with brass tube with eyes soldered onto the end made a pivot at the bottom and used more brass tube to the points it looks like point rodding and acts in the same way and its hidden under a signal box it looks quite prototypical Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 See image above - that works for all points I have used on O gauge Marcway, OO gauge Peco, and N & OO9 gauge Peco 20-25 swg Just use the thinnest you can get away with, otherwise you risk putting strain on the motor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Just use the thinnest you can get away with, otherwise you risk putting strain on the motor. I cannot see how that can happen. The Tortoise is designed so that the motor travels to the end of its stop (if fitted with correct use of the fulcrum) and then stalls. The spring wire's flexibility only applies a small pressure on the tie-bar at this final position retaining it close to the stock rail. This flex pressure should be no greater with any gauge of wire unless the point has not been correctly adjusted or has not be aligned correctly. If the wire is straining the motor during its travel then there is something wrong with the point such as the tie-bar sticking midway. The amount of additional effort to overcome minor hindrances - such as leaving the Peco spring in place - are hardly going to make a difference to the motor. I have been using and reusing Tortoises on layouts for years and I have never had a motor fail. If I did I would exercise the life-time guarantee. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Believe me it's perfectly possible. If you have a gauge of wire that is so stiff that the motor doesn't reach its stall point (i.e. the point has thrown OK but the motor is still trying), It will keep on going trying to reach the stall point, now you wouldn't want to perpetuate this because of a) the unpleasant noise and the likelihood that the motor will burn out, whether or not you could claim under the guarantee is a moot point as it could count as misuse. Now I've never burnt one out either but I would caution against using the connectors that are sold in the UK, ostensibly to make the wiring of your Tortoise easier. The problem with them is that they are somewhat of a loose fit in that they can be slid along the Tortoise pcb and if you don't get them just right, you'll have a short circuit on your track, very exasperating when you have a large number so fitted, I can tell you, just wish they made a proper connector for the job. However I doubt I will ever use another Tortoise again, servos seem the way to go as far as I can see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-H Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 The stall point is any point that the motor is no longer able to move, it can be anywere along the motors throw, they just stop when they meet a certain level of resistance and don't burn out because they only draw a few milliamps of current. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Believe me it's perfectly possible. If you have a gauge of wire that is so stiff that the motor doesn't reach its stall point (i.e. the point has thrown OK but the motor is still trying), It will keep on going trying to reach the stall point, But this is exactly the problem I have with most folk who complain about the Tortoise. They are failing to install them correctly. I have seen too many of them installed with the fulcrum unused and ineffective. The fulcrum should be set so that the motor reaches its end stops just as spring pressure is in effect on clamping the switch rail to the stock rail. This way the motor always will go into stall mode (low current and quiet). The other most common reason this doesn't happen is that the tortoise is not aligned with the center throw of the tiebar. I would agree with the PCB clip problem - myself, I always solder the wires on the pcb lands and take them to a separate chocblock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Believe me it's perfectly possible. If you have a gauge of wire that is so stiff that the motor doesn't reach its stall point (i.e. the point has thrown OK but the motor is still trying), It will keep on going trying to reach the stall point, now you wouldn't want to perpetuate this because of a) the unpleasant noise and the likelihood that the motor will burn out, whether or not you could claim under the guarantee is a moot point as it could count as misuse. As a number of people have pointed out, there is no defined stall point. The motor simply stops when too much resistance is met. The motor at either end is ALWAYS still trying, that's the beauty of the Tortoise design, and as long as you don't exceed the 12 volt DC supply to them, they will not burn out. When stalled there is a slight hum from the motor and this is perfectly normal, if your Tortoise is making 'unpleasant noise' then you need to look at the supply. If it is not properly rectified and smooth DC at 12 volts, then it should be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiDAS Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I use thicker wire on 0 gauge hand built points. Quick and easy source - kitchen wisks - cheap and readily available in multiples in warehouse, pound shops etc. I am a Tortoise fan. Terry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 If it is not properly rectified and smooth DC at 12 volts, then it should be. This is not true - and for reference I draw your attention to the instructions for wiring option 3. This method uses steering diodes on an AC supply to produce a half-wave supply to the motors. I frequently use this schematic for wiring as it significantly reduces the number of wires from the control panel - only one per motor. They are no less noisy than any other method. True that the motors only pull a few milli-amp when stalled properly. However, I suggest that you try this little experiment. (no points required) compare: 1. the motor stalled by holding the spring solid in relation to a fixed motor center position is best. The spring wire should be strong enough in this experiment to prevent the motor moving to the end of its travel - the fixed stop point. The supplied wire may be inadequate as unless clamped at its extreme with no fulcrum it will just bend anyway allowing the motor full travel to its stop. 2. the motor powered but at its fixed stop point - ignore the spring wire. You will find that [1] is considerably noisier than [2]. The reason is that in the case of 2. the motor "stalls" on a solid internal stop point - the resistance is immovable. in case 1. there is no final stop point. The motor vibrates against the tension of the spring as it continually attempts to push the spring further - there is a point at which the reaction of the spring is greater than that required to temporarily stall the motor, the motor stalls but itself is not an absolute fixed position and allows the spring to push the motor slightly back under that tension. The motor re-starts and the cycle is repeated. This is greater with the more tension of the spring. This is why they make a noise (as bad as clicking) if badly fitted and a barely audible hum on stall when fitted correctly. As indicated, many people do not bother with the fulcrum or even bother with the correct alignment of the motor. Many people do not experience any problem with this setup and this is because the supplied wire is so flexible that the motor travels to the stops anyway and the travel at the tiebar is so extreme it exceeds the travel required at that point. But when there is a problem at the tiebar the first place to look is the alignment and fulcrum and then the wire used. But I always change the wire these days - it is just a simple step. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywoodfoundry Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 One needs to be careful when using the 'This is not true' statement. Would you be happier if I said that any motor using a half-wave supply is bound to be noisier when stalled than a motor using filtered DC? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted October 15, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 15, 2009 Based on such strong recommendations from people whose advice I generally follow I have taken the plunge and switched to Tortoises. I also decided I should switch to stronger wire. Getting 20 SWG wire in Canada was more difficult than I had thought......I may have been asking the wrong questions but I certainly had some interesting discussions in Guitar Shops.........finally I settled for some amazingly expensive piano wire. Although it measures in correctly I suspect it may be too strong certainly I had to use a vice to bend it to shape and even then it doesnt quite match the template. Electrically the Tortoise got set up with no problems (and the polarity switch is just great) but I couldnt get the motor to move the wire.....so I reinstalled the supplied wire and that worked after a fashion in that it closes the point in one direction but does not complete the closure in the other. I wonder if the fact that I drilled a larger hole in the fulcrum and tiebar to accomodate the stronger wire is a problem or if I installed it slightly off centre (it was a retro installation to replace a failed peco switch). Any suggestions? I installed the second one today and it works perfectly with a manual switch, DCC 5 sec pulse and thru the computor RR&co. Any idea what the recommended pulse length should be? Regards from Canada Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 15, 2009 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 15, 2009 Our Tortoises are driven through Switchits John so can't help there. I have mounted well over 200 Tortoises now, on Peco and and handbuilt track, OO and P4 and would always use the stronger wire, the problem with the original wire is a tiny bit of ballast can stop the switch blades moving*, and on facing points this is "ouch" - but each to their own. *Carry a layout in a van for a couple of hundred miles for this effect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Based on such strong recommendations from people whose advice I generally follow I have taken the plunge and switched to Tortoises. I also decided I should switch to stronger wire. Getting 20 SWG wire in Canada was more difficult than I had thought......I may have been asking the wrong questions but I certainly had some interesting discussions in Guitar Shops.........finally I settled for some amazingly expensive piano wire. Although it measures in correctly I suspect it may be too strong certainly I had to use a vice to bend it to shape and even then it doesnt quite match the template. Electrically the Tortoise got set up with no problems (and the polarity switch is just great) but I couldnt get the motor to move the wire.....so I reinstalled the supplied wire and that worked after a fashion in that it closes the point in one direction but does not complete the closure in the other. I wonder if the fact that I drilled a larger hole in the fulcrum and tiebar to accomodate the stronger wire is a problem or if I installed it slightly off centre (it was a retro installation to replace a failed peco switch). Any suggestions? I installed the second one today and it works perfectly with a manual switch, DCC 5 sec pulse and thru the computor RR&co. Any idea what the recommended pulse length should be? Regards from Canada Hi, I think that 'piano wire' in the sizes we are interested in is obtainable from K&S in a rather over-packaged plastic tube, I try to keep a selection of sizes in, though I haven't needed to buy any since we moved to France. Having the point motor off-centre may have contributed to your problem, which hole in the fulcrum did you use? Did you move the fulcrum to give greater throw, don't forget to glue it in position once everything is OK. 5 seconds sounds about right to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 One needs to be careful when using the 'This is not true' statement. Would you be happier if I said that any motor using a half-wave supply is bound to be noisier when stalled than a motor using filtered DC? Sorry, but the implication in your statement was that the motor would not work on un-smooth DC. That is most clearly not the case - as they do work with un-smoothed half-wave and this is a manufacturer's instructed option. As to them being noisier using this recommended (by the manufacturer's) mode of operation. I agree the motor is very slightly noisier during the approximate 1 second of its operation. but there is no difference in sound level when in stall mode. This change in sound is nowhere near as pronounced as the distinct clicking heard when not adjusted correctly. Of course whether you hear that difference over the din of the DCC sound is another matter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I wonder if the fact that I drilled a larger hole in the fulcrum and tiebar to accomodate the stronger wire is a problem or if I installed it slightly off centre (it was a retro installation to replace a failed peco switch). Any suggestions? No hole size in tiebar has no impact on the motor. (just a fraction of a second as the wire travels to the other side of the hole) Alignment is almost certainly the problem - barring the obstruction already eluded to above. At center travel of tiebar and center travel of motor (carefully manually) the wire should be straight and the travel in line with the tiebar. I would caution about gluing the fulcrum in place - if like me you end up re-using the motors over and over on the "next" layout then this may present a future problem. if they slip then just ram a paper wedge in there. Have you measured the diameter of the wire to check it is 20swg? The steel wire I use (supplied in the past by Alton Model Center or Eileens Emporium - so probably not much use to you) bends reasonably easily with pliers to make a good right angle. Use of a vice makes me think it is too thick. I do not recall it being expensive - though admit that is a relative term. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted October 15, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 15, 2009 Thanks Guys Its good to know I can forget about the tiebar hole because I worried when I saw the wire moving around In both cases I moved the fulcrum right to the top and secured it with Plasticine. As you may have gathered I am something of a dummy when it comes to practical matters.......... for future reference does the fulcrum at the top exercise the most pressure or is it the other way round...........ie assuming I have the tortoise properly centred and mounted where should I start with the fulcrum and if the motor moves correctly but doesnt move the blade which way do I move the fulcrum? I had to buy the wire from a piano tuner at $5 cdn per foot ............I didnt think of model shops .......I will try at my local! Now to reposition the tortoise Kind Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted October 28, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 28, 2009 If anyone has problems getting piano wire, try your nearest model aircraft stockist they always have it for connecting servos. It comes in various thicknesses and only costs a few pence for a yard. But dont't try cutting it with Xuron cutters, only use a slitting disc. I model in 7mm and always replace the wire, just remember to ease the hole under the retaining screw to make sure the new thicker wire seats properly. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Just a note if you use a slitting disc do not cut the wire while it is in place in the tiebar - the heat generated by a slitting disc is enough to melt the plastic - wrecking your point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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