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Showing results for 'banner' in content posted in Permanent Way, Signalling & Infrastructure.
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I am planning a micro layout in the 'James Hilton' style but cannot decide whether I will need to include any signalling or not. I've ready many threads and a couple of books (including Bob Essery's), looked at some actual signalling diagrams but still find it confusing so any advice would be most welcome. The scenario is a small south London single platform terminus and a yard at the the end of a single line branch that probably has a one or stations with passing loops further up the line. Era late BR/early NSE. Coloured light signals. Traffic: 2-car EMU/DMU for passenger trafic and short freight/parcels trains (e.g. Class 33 + a few wagons). The schematic is below. Total length of layout as shown by dotted box - only 1100mm (fits onto a Scale Model Scenery baseboard). A = single line in/out which also acts as headshunt (see below) for shunting between B and C B = platform C = yard D = short headshunt - probably hold a Class 08 or perhaps Class 33 for shunting purposes S1 to S4 show where signals might or might not be positioned - perhaps no signals are required at all! Typical movements: - EMU/DMU arrive/depart into/from B - Freight arrives into B and gets shunted to C by loco in D - Could have some subsequent freight shunting between B and C to assemble train - Loco arrives form A to collect freight - Freight departs to A from B or C (could have rule that all freight departs only from B but I don't think that would be likely as freight would then always need to be shunted to B first - but it may simplify things from a signalling perspective). Ideas I had: - assume there is an advanced starting signal further up A and visible from train in B (have banner repeater if not?) then ground signals at S1 and S2 to control shunting moves using A as a headshunt between the station and the advanced starter. Any train in B could depart if starter and ground signal at S1 allowed. S2 would allow freight train to depart to A (which would then have to obey the advanced starter once it got there. - starter with subsidery 'shunt on' signal at S1 but then how would departure of freight from C be controlled? Or perhaps I simply need a ground frame (yet another confusing topic) near the station throat? Any help would be much appreciated! Apologies if my terminolgy is somewhat dodgy...
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There was definitely ome installed in. that area arund that time and then one a bit later (early '80s I reckon) somewhere not too far south of Wolverhamton on the Down - it wasI, recall, very bright. The Banbury one on the Up Main was also quite early probably late 1980s/ealy '90s?. The only other type - which I think were unique were the two aspect banner repeaters at paddington for teh platform 'starting signals' which were mounted under teh footbridge. They were in standard Reading design stencil indicator boxes but illuminated either as a banner shown horizontally or, separately, as a banner in theupper quadrant 'off ' position. But generally banner repeaters weren't very common in the WR MAS schemees of the 19606'/70s as it seems a lot of effort was taken to site signals where they don't need a repeater although there were very occasional exceptions. There was a standard electr-mechanical banner on the Up Main Playform Line (No.5 platform) which had repeateda semphore signal and it was retained but working in the lower quadrant for a 3 aspect colour ligh. I don't know if it was unique but having a lower quadrant banner repeater for a multiple aspect colour light was definitely a bit unusual. -
There seems to be a bit of confusion between filament buld and LED in the question. Traditional banner repeaters were originally lit by oil lamps with the lamp externally at the back so the actual banner had glass both sides. These could be converted to filament bulbs and would not look any different. But banner signals designed for electric lamps would be glass on the front only and had a dome shaped housing at the rear for the lamp and optics. Usage of these would be dependent on the availability of power supplies but would have been used with colour lights as power would be available. Not sure of dates but I would think from sometime in the 1920s/30s. So definately what you would ecpect in the 70s. -
I think it is likely that the stop signal would be on the approach side of the overbridge, because of the sighting problem. WR practice would have meant a semaphore lower quadrant home signal would have been more likely in the 1970s than a 3-aspect colour light. However the trees might make that equally difficult for sighting reasons. You have shown the signal in question as "Banner repeater/distant?" If it were a distant, it would have been Y/G 2-aspect colour light, but would have to be at full braking distance from the Home Signal. As it presumably isn't that far out, yes, a banner repeater of the electro-machanical type could be provided (and by inference the distant is even further away, off-scene on the other side of the tunnel). I don't think you'd find fibre optics signals as early as the 1970s. -
Fictional SR station signalling advice
Grovenor replied to Typographer's topic in Permanent Way, Signalling & Infrastructure
I agree, if a banner is needed there it is more important for through trains on the main line that are not stopping, as such it would be better moved to the right close to the the point toes so it can be better seen when approaching from the through line. -
The banner repeaters are ok where you have them although in soem such locations teh Southern would have put a stop signal - particularly protecting the approach to theh platform - but wnhat you have done isn't wrong and there was no doubt a prototype for it somewhere on the Southern. I can't really see any need for the ground frame - it just adds a complication to what is really a pretty straightforward situation. You might find a prototype for it if you look hard enough and wide but the situation is very straightforward and wouldn't really justify it - we're not talkinga big yard like Eastleugh.
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Dear Mike @The Stationmaster, thank you. (I read your posts on the direction of levers several times over before I glued them in place!) I’ll add the hand levers, but are they in addition to the ground frame, or is that not required? On the ground discs, I was going to cheat there, because the erroneous triple one would be hard to see (obscured by platforms), so a being able to use a single yellow helps me a lot! And should I keep the banner repeaters in the positions I’ve put them? Thanks again, Paul -
Hello! Things have progressed on my layout since my last questions, thanks to excellent RMWebber advice, but I would like to check out a couple of new things before I commit. 1) Banner repeaters (see plan and first photo). a) I have provisionally added two Bachmann BRs as shown in the photo. The near one repeats the down platform starter, because the curve of the platform and the footbridge would obscure it from this point. b) The far one repeats to up advance starter for the benefit of traffic coming from the up bay and goods road, because the curvature of the track obscures it from this viewpoint. Are these plausible? They add some character to the scene, so I would like to have them. The ground signal positions are indicated by the white/red blobs. 2) Ground frame for yard. I’m imagining the signal box would control all exit on to the up main line (i.e the right-hand part of the 3-way point), but would release control of the left-hand part so that shunting movements could be controlled from the ground frame. a) Is the position plausible? b) Would the two points for the back three roads have point levers as well? (I like the effect of levers in the area of the engine shed, see second photo.) Love to hear your comments.
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Next up at Wellingborough was this banner repeater. It used to have 2 heads on it but in the period modelled it was down to just the one. Being an externally lit one, I couldn't use the 3d printed ones I have so it was back to scratchbuilding again. Fortunately I had an etched front surround left over from a previous job so that was the starting point. Yes, there's more Wellingborough to come soon... JF
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Heath Town L Frame - a GWR “what if”
5BarVT replied to 5BarVT's topic in Permanent Way, Signalling & Infrastructure
Gradient was 90R from Dunstall Park to Low Level and ~350F from Low Level to Priestfield. Obviously levelled out a bit through the platform. Looking at photos I think the top was around South Jn so uphill to those traps. There was a banner for the Up mid platform signals just off the north end of the platform which is consistent with needing to keep things rolling on the way in and needing to know On or Off as early as possible. Paul. -
good morning all, I am an absolute novice when it comes to signalling. I have a topic over in the track planning section where i am looking for help with signalling a future track plan. as part of this I have a signal which might need to be positioned around a bend. would I need a repeater of some sort . If so, when did filament bulb repeaters come into use as im using colour light signals. im looking at early 70s wr practice but might flex rule 1 because i love the look of the absolute aspects fillament / led banner repeater.
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IIRC there is a banner on the viaduct approaching the signal reading into the platforms at Wolverhampton. Sighting of that signal is obscured by electrification structures and a factory building on Lower Horseley Fields. -
My office in Birmingham was involved in what I believe may have been the first fibre optic banner at Smethwick Rolfe Street. From memory of what I was doing at the time I would put it at around 1979/80 when we were playing around with the idea. I think producing the prototype was a joint effort between Gresty Road workshops and the S&T lab at Crewe.
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I prefer the arrangement shown in the layout thread with the stop signal before the bend. If this arrangement is so that you can have a banner repeater, then I would push it into the bend a little - round about where the trees on the inside start. As regards style, for 70s you’re really stuck with the electro magnetic electrically lit version. The current ones are LED as you say, but prior to that there were fibre optic versions which had the same illuminated dots style. I think that the earliest they would be is late 80s. Paul.
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I can remember that the banner repeater located on the former GCR line, between Sheffield Victoria and Woodburn (sic) Junction, which lead down to the former MR Nunnery Junction was an electro-mechanical type (backlit by a dual filament bulb) in the mid 1970s. -
Does anyone have a source for when the filament bulb banner repeaters came in? All I can find online is companies advertising the fact they have modernised network rails signals to leds and how fabulous they are. No one stating how old the filament bulb versions are. I'm just thinking that perhaps the led version will be much easier to install and be operational. I might look at putting a diffusing layer on the front so it looks more like an older mechanical version without the individual leds.
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In the 70s I'm pretty sure they would have been real banner repeaters, the LED version possibly late 90s. Ones with green LEDs not till this century.
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The question arose on ANTB about whether a WR banner should have a finial. My gut feel was ‘No’ but I couldn’t be absolutely sure. Having been looking for something else, I stumbled upon a location with a (G)WR banner and then thought of other ways to determine an answer. I’m posting my logic here in case anyone wishes to confirm or challenge my conclusion. The case for the prosecution(!) is as follows: GWR 1936 General Appendix has colour drawings of signals. Semaphore and colour light running signals are shown with finials but banners are not. Photographic evidence comes from Wolverhampton where there was a banner on the Up Main just prior to Wednesfield Road Bridge. It can be seen in a photo on disused stations taken outside North Box in 1967 (not conclusive on its own) and also in Rail Centres Wolverhampton (p104). Therefore I am happy to state that a (G)WR banner would not have had a finial. Case rests M’lud. Paul.
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Evening everyone. I was wondering if anyone knows if any company has produced an N gauge banner repeater signal? I’ve looked online but no joy. Failing that has anyone on here perhaps scratch built one? Any advice much appreciated. Nick -
Latest updates on the usual selection of WR signals being constructed! A simple early pattern GWR signal. This features my own Boltons Bits etched post and fittings and the first of my early pattern GW arms. The finial and lamp case are Modelu.. This next beast was even more of a challnge than my last banner repeater. Hiding the linkages was a nightmare and the banner heads are illuminated with tiny SMD LEDs glued to the back of the 3D printed heads just below the pivots.. Next up is a fairly standard WR bracket, again featuring all my own etches.. I think I may have been a little heavy with the matt black rattle can on this one but the weather was playing havoc with the paintwork before the sun made a rare appearance.. Finally, a GWR twin disc. I made up the main stand from square brass tube and filed a cap on it. The square lamps are Modelu and the rest is my own etches. More soon! JF
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Hi Everyone, My Western Region suburban terminus station has a bridge cutting through the middle of the platforms which, for shorter trains, would obscure the view of the platform starter signals at the station throat. I think I’m after some steam era banner repeater signals, but any guidance would be greatly appreciated. Is there anything off the shelf that would work? Kind regards, Nick
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One other problem is lack of suitable signals . My layout is fully signalled but semaphores are only posable and not working. Whilst it is possible to make ratio signals work they aren't very robust so they probably wouldn't last long. I admire people who like Phil can make MSE products to work, I'm not great at soldering and they are very fiddly. I've managed to make shunting discs and a banner repeater posable I don't know how or if it could be done but a modular signalling system possibly based on BR standard equipment would be fantastic -
Hi Muz, Oh dear, but it is a valid question and actually now, it is something we should really be thinking about. If we can move (or more likely when providing new) signals so that they cause less disruption to those living next to the railway without impacting the safety or efficient operation of the railway, then we should. However, the answer to the general public is no you can't 'simply' move a signal. In terms of the concept of just moving a signal, there are several factors that I as a designer have to think about: Operational Need - Is there actually a valid reason that this signal needs moving? Usually there is, but sometimes it can be at the whim of a single TOC which doesn't represent value for the whole industry. Headway - Does the new position negatively modify the headway? Braking Distance - Not only is there sufficient braking distance to the red signal to allow it to move, but also will moving it mean that it is too over-braked? Obviously the minimum distance between first caution and red (without the need for further signalling controls or a reduction in speed) is 100% of Braking Distance, but the preferred maximum is 150% of braking distance. You also need to ensure that, in a four aspect area, you don't blow the 'Two Thirds' Rule, whereby you have at least one third of braking distance between the Single Yellow Aspect and the Red Aspect. Overlap - Can you move the Overlap with the Signal? If not, do you reduce the Overlap to below the minimum length required or do you increase the Overlap too far so that your Headway increases too much? Sighting - Can you see the new signal in it's new position? This is determined by the Signal Sighting Committee. Overrun Distance - Does the new position mean that the Safe Overrun Distance is now below the required minimum? Is a new conflict point introduced? Train Protection - Is the train protection suitable for the new position? If you move a signal back, you may not need Train Protection anymore, but if you move it forwards you may need to increase your Train Protection. Train Detection - Can the Train Detection be modified easily? Other Risks - Does the new position introduce a new distraction, read-across, operational or drivability risk? Is that signal now on a steep gradient? Does a train standing at the signal now stand over a Level Crossing or Junction? Controls - Does the new position mean that the signal now has to change from an Auto to a Controlled, or visa versa? Does the interlocking or panel / workstation require modification? This is the real killer for any 'simple' signal moves. Wiring - Is there sufficient wiring slack to move a signal or are new cables needed? If the signal is moving towards it's feed location, it's fairly simple, if it moves away, then it's more complicated! Civils - Is the new position suitable for digging in a new signal? Do you need any special structures? Environmental - Does the new position pose any environmental risk? ETCS - Does moving the signal change any ETCS Overlay Data? A new one, but has cropped up in a signal move that I'm involved with! Of course, in our designs, we try to build in some passive provision so that signals don't have to move (such as to allow speed increases or for platform extensions). In terms of physically moving the signal, some signals are very hard to move, some are quite simple. We've recently done a job to 'simply' move a couple of signals at Old Oak Common, one was simple in that it could be picked up and walked down the track whilst the other required a new Banner being installed and modifications to the workstation. In the current world of signals such as the Dorman ILS or VMS lightweight which have plug and play connections and GRP structures, it can be very simple to unplug the signal, unbolt it from the foundation (which doesn't need to be a huge concrete plinth), and use an RRV (or possible a large amount of very strong workers!) to carry it down the line and bolt it back down. Then you plug it in, carry out a function test (another advantage of plug and play is that in this case, the testing regime can be reduced if done right) and off you go! If you are moving a signal in an area of Frauscher or Thales K series Axle Counters, you can unbolt the A/C heads and slide them along the Rail (these are plug and play as well!). If you TPWS loops to move and you have a good designer with the right circumstances, you can move the TPWS Loops closer to their feed Loc, so that you just knock out the clips and walk it to its new position. Now, the above Paragraph is a simplification of the best circumstances, so don't think that it is always 'simple' to move a signal, but it can be. In this case, it would be LUL that would be required to move the signal, as it's their asset and their signalling principles are different to ours (I'm sitting here waiting for the IRSE textbook on Metro Signalling to turn up so I can shed more light on that :) ), so it might not be that simple. Simon -
Am I right in thinking these are (i.e. represent) wooden arms? I coldn't see them in Bolton's BIts listings - perhaps not yet available? First rate models, all of them! I looked particularly hard at the ground discs as I have a few to do (when I've completed a signal box which is taking an age to finish). I think I'm relieved I don't need any banner repeaters though! -
Sorry, Jon, I meant the banner repeaters!
