M.A. Project - Recreating York Railways Station 1958 on film.

[Jamiel]

Thanks Metroland. One of my locations will be Hull Station (if I can get permission) as it isn't electrified, and I do plan to pass it off as York, probably with little success, but it would show a bottom line in starting the work.

In defense of film producers, getting to shoot on Paddington might not have been possible as it is far busier than Hull, which has been used for a number of films. Hull has a couple of platforms that can be used with little inconvenience to passengers. In 1991, when 'The Plymouth Express' was filmed, computer graphics were only used on huge Hollywood films, and were still relatively new, certainly beyond the budget of Poirot. Hull was used in 'Clockwise' too.

I must have a check to see what station was used for the start of the film 'Paddington' (the bear), I have a slight suspicion it could be St Pancras, but I might be wrong. Brilliant film whatever station was used.

EDIT. I think I am wrong as the marbled floor is quite distinctive and matches Paddington Station, plus considering the film is called 'Paddington' they probably made the effort. The scenes are at night as well.

Back to filming....

[Clearwater]

I think The n gauge kings cross you reference is called Copenhagen fields. If you google, you'll find it. It's owned by the Model Railway Club

 

On their website they have several references to the ladykillers and sets. Worth a read

 

As you point out, it's a great layout

[Jamiel]

Yes, it was Copenhagen Fields, lovely layout, I remember it was on the cover of Railway Modeller.

Thank you Clearwater.

Jamie

[Jamiel]

It might be worth browsing on here.  There is a thread about railway scenes in Film and television or something similar that has a lot of references.

 

Two other films that are worth looking at where railways provide a backdrop are 'Quadraphenia' and 'Get Carter'.

 

There was also an adaption of the Hound of the Baskervilles that used a clip showing Holmes and Watson in a compartment passing St Pauls Cathedral when they were setting off the west country from Paddington.  Presumably this was to give an American audience a reference.

 

Jamie

Thanks for yet more information Jamie.

 

I watched Quadraphenia a few months ago, and the HSTs passing the window were very out of place to me, but my partner didn't notice them at all.

 

Films that are set a few years in the past are full of little inconsistencies, things like how cornflakes packaging has changed, you think you know what a Kelloggs cornflakes box looks like, but of you research it, they change all the time.

 

The geography of a place, verses the wish to get in locations that people know is always fun. I read about the 'Titifield Thunderbolt', to get the archetypal English town, they used different location for every shot when the train goes on the loose, many miles apart.

 

Jamie

 

 

[sir douglas]

the film & television thread

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/48694-railway-footage-in-feature-films-and-television/

[Jamiel]

Yet again, brilliant material. Thank you Sir Douglas.

 

I think that RMweb is going to form a key pat of my bibliography.

Jamie

[Del]

Films that are set a few years in the past are full of little inconsistencies, things like how cornflakes packaging has changed, you think you know what a Kelloggs cornflakes box looks like, but of you research it, they change all the time.

 

Related to this, I find that the railway scenes in 'Heartbeat' are amongst the worst for accuracy (e.g. a Schools on a local Yorkshire branch line), which is odd when you see how far they go to get everything else right such as the Corn Flakes boxes!

 

'Paddington' was at Paddington, but there have been more than a few filmed at St Pancras. Before the rebuild, it featured in the intro sequence to the 'Porridge' film, and also in '102 Dalmatians', but since, it has been featured in 'Spooks', 'Eastenders', 'The Bletchley Circle' and a few others that aren't coming to mind just at the moment!

[EddieB]

I think that RMweb is going to form a key part of my bibliography.

 

Jamie

 

I venture that may be a tad optimistic.  There are some good suggestions to be found here, to be sure, but you'll probably need to go a lot further in your research.

 

There are a couple of works of reference, both having been through various editions, which I'd recommend at least consulting:

 

"Railways on the Screen" (Huntly);

"Horton's Guide to Britain's Railways in Feature Films" (Horton).

 

Both are good background material, but neither is comprehensive enough to stand alone.

 

The other aspect to look out for is out-takes - many excellent railway sequences ended up on cutting-room floors.  Among them would be some sequences from the 1959 version of "The Thirty-Nine Steps" (which is the best of the three shootings of Buchan's book in terms of its railway footage) that would be worth looking out.  (No idea where to start, however).

[Jamiel]

Thanks Eddie.

You are quite about the bibliography, but the focus is on the use of computer graphics so titles 'Digital Visual Effects in Cinema' and 'Digital Storytelling' are more the main area of research, as well as going back to the ieas of 'hyper-reality' proposed by Jean Baudrillard in 'Simulcra and Simulation'.

That said, I will mention RMweb, and the tiles people have suggested, and give thanks to members of this forum, as the suggestions so far have proved very useful in the area of factual background of the Station being re-created.

I watched 2/3 'The Theory of Everything' last night, we were too tired to make it to the end, so will catch that tonight (no spoilers please), although I suspect at some point Stephen Hawking get a voice simulator!

Still in that I noticed green rail carriages setting of from Cambridge, and just to show it isn't just trains that get caught out, from:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2980516/goofs

"When the rest of the family is traveling to Bordeaux by car they are traveling in a Volvo 740 (745) station wagon. It's stated in the movie that the youngest child, Timothy, is only a baby. This could no be as Timothy Hawking is born in 1979 and the Volvo 740 went into production in 1984."

Neither of the listed inaccuracies spoiled what I thought was a really good film, and at the end of the day it is a dramatisation of his life, and not a documentary on the various modes of transport he encountered. That said, I would hope that the wheelchairs that are key to his life are more accurately represented. As for things like Rutherford splitting the atom in that room, well he taught there, so it adds to the weight of exceptions.

Thanks again for all the information, it is all greatly appreciated.

Jamie

[hmrspaul]

I am appalled to say I watched King Ralph on ITV yesterday afternoon (it has some truly A list UK actors!) It has a scene of a royal visitor being welcomed at a railway station with a beautifully presented class 47. My guess is it is at Marylebone which I have always understood was a first choice location for  a city terminal.

 

http://www.radiotimes.com/film/vpp7/king-ralph

 

Paul Bartlett

[Jamiel]

Thank you Paul.

I am even more indebted to you than before (for all your photos of wagons).

Sometimes you can put all the best people into a project and something quite dreadful come out at the other end. I remember someone (Michael Caine I think) saying that 'no-one sets out to make a bad film', although I think some Hollywood films these days might be deliberately puerile.

Thanks again.

Jamie

[Metr0Land]

I am appalled to say I watched King Ralph on ITV yesterday afternoon (it has some truly A list UK actors!) It has a scene of a royal visitor being welcomed at a railway station with a beautifully presented class 47. My guess is it is at Marylebone which I have always understood was a first choice location for  a city terminal.

 

http://www.radiotimes.com/film/vpp7/king-ralph

 

Paul Bartlett

 

Not seen it myself (or at least am not admitting it.....) but according to this it was St Pancras

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102216/locations

[Metr0Land]

Now here's a curiosity or two.....

 

I've just caught up with Partners In Crime the remake of the Tommy and Tuppence things previously with Francesca Annis but now with David Walliams and Jessica Raine.  In an early sequence they're meant to be catching a train from Paris in 1952.  They board a GWR carriage but the inside has SNCF anti-macassars on the seats.  Outside we see a Stanier carriage so presumably on the SVR.  No great problems as obv they have a budget to work to and Joe Public won't notice.  What piqued my curiosity was that when the train whistled the whistle seemed distinctly continental and in deed the whistle was repeated in a flashback sequence later.  Did anyone see/hear this?  (We weren't shown any locos).

 

 

Just to show they make other howlers on these things apart from trains.  In a later sequence the herione stumbles on an illegal bookie's den, and in surprise she asks to put a shilling (5p) on the favourite in the 12:30 at Catford.  Needless to say she wins and the bookie pays out her winnings.  A £1 note of the period is placed on the table along with a lot of coins which we don't see.  So she wins at 20:1 or better on the favourite in a six dog race

[Jamiel]

First day of filming, at York Station today, me in sort of period dress tweed jacket, khaki trousers and a grey felt hat. I had hoped to get someone else to be my actor, but in the end it was just easier to play the part myself.

 

There is an awful lot of the station that will need replacing or painting out to get back to 1958.

Shooting at the North Yorks Moors Railway tomorrow.

Hopefully some stills soon (watermarked with the Universities copyright I am afraid).

Jamie
 

[Jamiel]

Ripper Street started series 3 with an episode right in the target area for my M.A. piece.

https://vimeo.com/116761565

 

With a budget of £100, rather than the £1000's for this sequence, my piece will not be quite as impressive. Two days of filming for my final piece completed this week at York station and the North Yorkshire Moors Railway. I have yet to download the footage to my hard drives.

I have contacted Screen Scene, as I worked there a couple of years ago on a film, at the same time as some work was being done for the first season of Ripper Street, so hopefully I will get some first hand information.

What do people think of the Ripper Street scene, the accuracy of the railways represented, and does anyone have any further information about the shoot?

Many thanks for all the links and information given so far.

Jamie

[jamie92208]

I've enjoyed seeing your comments on the Ripper Street thread and accept that there are budgetary constraints.  However we tend to do a lot better than our cousins across the pond.  I well remember an episode of 'Hardcastle and Mcormak'  where there was a car chase that ended up at a grade crossing  The in an industrial area, as a train went on to it.  The approach scenes all featured US rolling stock but then there was a view along the track of the train approaching. The train was hauled by a class 87 and the route was electrified with british overhead equipment.

 

Jamie

[Jamiel]

Thanks Jamie.

I think things are changing a lot at the moment as well. With computer effects things can be rectified after shooting, the web allows better and easier research, and also access to more stock footage.

The episode of 'Hardcastle and Mcormak', which finished production in the 80's probably found that they needed an extra shot when they were in the edit, phoned a stock footage library in a hurry and asked for a train, 'not steam', pulling goods, and the received a tape in the post the next day that they had to use. At least now, you could go on the net, type in 'train/goods' into a search engine, Google, or on a stock website, and you could then match much better to what you were working with, and probably download it within an hour.

Similarly the shoot at the start of the 'Dad's Army' episode would have been from a stock library, as shooting an engine at speed on a railway would have cost too much.

When people shoot at places like a steam railway, one way they can off-set the budget is to sell shots that are not used to stock footage libraries, so you can see the same train on the same day in several different programmes.

Jamie

[Joseph_Pestell]

With the wealth of railway footage that RMWeb members must have, perhaps we should set up a specialist film library?

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am appalled to say I watched King Ralph on ITV yesterday afternoon (it has some truly A list UK actors!) It has a scene of a royal visitor being welcomed at a railway station with a beautifully presented class 47. My guess is it is at Marylebone which I have always understood was a first choice location for  a city terminal.

 

http://www.radiotimes.com/film/vpp7/king-ralph

 

Paul Bartlett

 

Marylebone was used a lot for films. It was much the quietest of the London termini (apart perhaps from the ruin of Broad St) and, for a time, the only one where steam was allowed.

 

Now very busy with the success of Chiltern Trains and lots of terrazzo tiling on the concourse and platforms.

 

When it comes to scenes that are supposed to be at a busy mainline station, I think it might actually be easier and cheaper for the film companies to create a set in an old warehouse somewhere.

[Jamiel]

Marylebone was used a lot for films. It was much the quietest of the London termini (apart perhaps from the ruin of Broad St) and, for a time, the only one where steam was allowed.

 

Now very busy with the success of Chiltern Trains and lots of terrazzo tiling on the concourse and platforms.

 

When it comes to scenes that are supposed to be at a busy mainline station, I think it might actually be easier and cheaper for the film companies to create a set in an old warehouse somewhere.

I am hoping that with the use of computer graphics that roofs and buildings of major stations like York and the London termini can be added to with footage shot on heritage railways and so make for greater accuracy and cheaper productions, and also generate me work as a by product (the latter being quite important to me!).

 

You are quite right about how the London stations are now all too busy to be turned over to film companies, rathert hans erving their actual function which is to be part of a huge tansport system.

[Jamiel]

I thought that I would post a still from one of the shots in progress, probably the main VFX shot from the sequence.

If anyone has any photos from a similar angle from the 1950's or 1960's they would be very helpful to see what details I need to add. I do have a few references already, but any new information is always appreciated.

The background is York shot a week ago, and the platform edge, right tracks and the Standard 4 Mogul are all from the North Yorkshire Moors Railway last week. I will add some trollies, baggage and boxes to cover the people on the platform at the edge of the train, and I still have to patch out the two people on the left in front of the carriages as well.


Please note the copyright of this imgae. I can't imagine that anyone would want to share it, but it does belong to the University of York.

I hope to post some completed shots once the work is submitted in a few weeks, and send a showreel breakdown version to the NYMR, and on my website.

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

It would need a lot of work to convert it to late 1950s - overhead to be completely removed, quadruple track through the station to be restored and it was all flat bottom rail by 1959, platform columns to be recoloured in NE Region pale blue and signage to be completely replaced, yellow line to be removed from platforms. platform canopies to be recoloured, headlamps on the engine to be changed and electrification warning flashes were probably not on it at that time - all in all a very major task I would think.  The problem is that the main overall roof and canopies apart the York station of today bears little detail resemblance to itself of 50-60 years ago as 'This Is York' shows, albeit in b&w and the colours are completely different due to the disappearance of steam.  

 

Compare it with this picture I took (different angle sorry) in the summer of 1959 - the entire 'atmosphere' is different and it's not just a matter of 'grey' instead of colours.  I think it would be a really difficult task to capture that sort of atmosphere, plus the numerous detail changes, from any sort of image made today but such tasks are well outside my knowledge zone.  (PS click on the image to enlarge it)

 

[Jamiel]

Many thanks Stationmaster.

I had planned to do some of the things you mentioned, the yellow lines and the platform edges and detail will all be removed, that is actually easier than it sounds. The signs and benches will also be changed.

The overhead electrical equipment will go, as will the rather ugly safety rails that have been added to the roof, and I haven't got around to adding the final centre track that was taken up in the 90's (?), that too will be done, and a train parked, or passing through on it, which will obscure the far end of the coaches where they would appear out of thin air (masked by the far side of Pickering station). The yellow ended DMU in the far platform will also be replaced with a steam engine.

I didn't know that the columns would be pale blue in 1958, the same will be the case for the colour of the canopies, those might be one things beyond what is possible in the time.

I had also overlooked the electric warning flashes, mostly as many of my steam loco models have them, but that is a very good point to make. I think they can be patched out fairly easily (if I get a good track from them).

When I first looked at the station I thought that everything below the canopies would have to be changed, and to a large extent that is the case. Still the work to do that is what the practical side of the project is about.

Your photo is excellent reference, not the same angle, but really shows a lot of the differences.

The final thing to do with the finished sequence is to show several different versions to various age groups and see how easily they are convinced by the shots. I will also show it to some people on the forum, and get their feedback. It will be interesting to see if easily a twenty-something is convinced by a relatively rough re-creation, verses those older with knowledge of the railways.

It would be nice to make a 'perfect' re-creation, but time and budget will have to balance that out, as it would be the case on a feature film.

I will post some more stills during the week.

A huge thank you to everyone who has contributed to the thread, it is all very useful for my work.

Jamie
 

[Jamiel]

Another day of shooting, this time for my own project. Here are a few stills of shooting my trains against green to add into one of the center tracks for the above image. My friend Sina on camera.









More completed shots soon.

Jamie
 

[Jamiel]

Just looking through some of Alan Smith's photos on the LeedsMRS.org website, I noticed that the ends of the arches were changed at some point, I think in the 60's. So there is another inaccuracy that is beyond fixing in the time available. Still it all adds to the research.



Jamie