Stephen Freeman Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Just wondering if anybody could point me in the direction of some decent photos of the Down Inner Home Bracket Signal. In particular I'm interested in knowing about the Ground Signal. Was it in fact a Ground Signal and was it elevated or perhaps a miniature arm on mini-bracket and if so at what periods? It looks very adjacent to the Bracket Signal itself hence the question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2016 The SRS 1961 diagram shows it as a ground mounted disc and the leads show it as reading to the sidings on either side which immediately suggests to me that it was most likely to be ground mounted. There is a picture in the Middleton Press book where the bracket appears in the background and the disc is definitely not on the bracket structure - in fact it looks as if it is directly in front of the main upright although that is not clear. The bracket at that time (1964) was tubular steel and arranged as a left hand bracket with the arms at equal elevation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 The SRS 1961 diagram shows it as a ground mounted disc and the leads show it as reading to the sidings on either side which immediately suggests to me that it was most likely to be ground mounted. There is a picture in the Middleton Press book where the bracket appears in the background and the disc is definitely not on the bracket structure - in fact it looks as if it is directly in front of the main upright although that is not clear. The bracket at that time (1964) was tubular steel and arranged as a left hand bracket with the arms at equal elevation. Hi, Thanks but really of interest is the GWR period, when it was a square posted job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 Now the question is will GWRJ No 25 give me the info I need? I think I have a copy but it is not immediately accessible to me at the moment nor will it be so for a good few months, so if it does have the info I am looking for, I'll buy a copy but if not then there is no point in duplicating something I probably already have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 Hi Mike, Right, as you were. Period in question is around 1959, so..... As far as I can see all the signals were of the tubular post design but I have a question about platform No 1 starter. I believe the signal was immediately before the turnout leading to the Turntable etc, now my question is how many routes and what was the nomenclature on the indicators and how many were there? Obviously there was a MAIN, plus presumably one for the down loop, one for the Turntable and possibly one for the sidings. However I do have a further question about the inner down home signal. The photo in the OPC book Vol 2, seems to show a single square post signal. The photo is undated but obviously of early BR vintage, so how can this be, when all the diagrams show a bracket signal, which you also confirmed to be the case in 1964? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 31, 2016 Hi Mike, Right, as you were. Period in question is around 1959, so..... As far as I can see all the signals were of the tubular post design but I have a question about platform No 1 starter. I believe the signal was immediately before the turnout leading to the Turntable etc, now my question is how many routes and what was the nomenclature on the indicators and how many were there? Obviously there was a MAIN, plus presumably one for the down loop, one for the Turntable and possibly one for the sidings. However I do have a further question about the inner down home signal. The photo in the OPC book Vol 2, seems to show a single square post signal. The photo is undated but obviously of early BR vintage, so how can this be, when all the diagrams show a bracket signal, which you also confirmed to be the case in 1964? Looking at the 1961 'box diagram the signal part way along Platform No.2 is an ordinary straight post with a disc reading to the turntable siding/carriage sidings however earlier photos definitely show a route indicator on that signal. I have found a 1945 photo in a book which has the back of the signal visible but it it is too indistinct to count the number of slides in the route indicator but there definitely aren't many - maybe two and no more than three. Assuming the Up Main Starting Signal was a three doll bracket prior to 1960 - which it probably was - then the route indicator would only have show two or three routes, likely to be, at most, Up Main (reading to the next Starting Signal from Platform No. 2), No.2 Loop, and Sidings. If there were four slides then the other would have been for the turntable - the big question mark (to which I can find no answer) is whether or not the point leading to the turntable was worked from the 'box and if it was whether or not a separate indication was provided. The change probably took place in 1960 when the lever was shortened (and probably relocked or maybe even renewed) and the number of levers was reduced but regrettably the SRS information doesn't include any sort of locking chart which would possibly solve some of the unanswered questions and I can find no trace of a diagram for the period immediately before the 1960 work. The OPC book does indeed show what appears to be a straight timber post for the Inner Home Signal so the photo and judging by the livery of a tender visible in the picture it almost certainly pre-dates the 1960 work. It's no more than a suspicion but I would imagine that following the doubling of the viaduct and the resiting of the Inner Home the new signal was provided with a route indicator reading to at least three and probably four routes - the two platforms, No.2 PlLoop, and the quayside sidings. The original Inner Home had 'to sidings' arm reading to the latter but No.2 loop hadn't existed back then. Again I think the change came with the 1960 when the routes to the Loop and sidings were signalled by a single ground disc - an alteration absolutely typical of the sort of changes being made at that time. So the big problem you face is whether to go for 1959 with a bit of educated guesswork or go for the post 1960 situation where good quality information is available. While I might be wrong I think all the changes which obviously took place in terms of discs replacing semaphore signalled routes can be linked to the 1960 work. Sorry I can't offer anything more but I'll have a look through various books and see if I can find any more useful photos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 Hi, Thanks for the info. Looking at the other photo in the OPC book, the Platform 2 starter appears to be a tubular post signal, and I think that there is a route indicator attached. I can't see a separate lever, so presume the turnout was controlled from the box. What you say about the down inner home makes sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 I have found photos on the web of Kingswear in the 1960s and Platform 2 starter did not have a route indicator by then. Also the point rodding from the box did reach to the turnout for the Turntable etc. Now what we need is some photos in the late 50s. There may be something in GWRJ issue 25 but I can't check on that at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted November 2, 2016 Author Share Posted November 2, 2016 Hi Mike, Well the plot thickens I have found this website which has loads of photos on Kingswear, most of which are not railway related but there are some gems. In particular there is a colour photo of the bracket signals. First point of interest is that the tubular post bracket gantry is painted white, rather than the usual black. There is also a better view of the inner home signal which appears to be a square post bracket. I think the right hand bracket doll is for the harbour yard and also the main post has a route indicator on it. So I think we therefore have the full story for the 1950s? I'll send a cropped picture PM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted November 4, 2016 Author Share Posted November 4, 2016 I think I now have a clearer picture of what was what in the 1950s thanks mainly to Mike (The Stationmaster) and to the photos I've found on the Internet. The Down Inner Home Signal was a square post signal with a route indicator. Platform 2 starter was a tubular post signal also with a Route Indicator. I still have a few niggles though. When was Platform 1 starter updated to a tubular post and how many routes did the 2 Indicators have, I think I know the answers but would like to be 100% certain. A bit more research now, whilst Bracket Signal Post for Signals 7 and 4 for Seaton dries after being cleaned (nothing whatsoever to do with Star Trek). Now pretty certain that Platform 2 starter route indicator had 2 routes, Main and sidings, I think there was a ground signal as well so that was most likely for the loop as that had its own starter further down past the turntable. In any event I can only see 2 levers in the photo on the Cornwall Railway Society site photo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted November 5, 2016 Author Share Posted November 5, 2016 Now the only remaining question for me is when did Platform 2 starter get altered from a square post to a tubular one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 The answer is probably some time in the 1950s but by 1960 at the latest, I have now sorted out most of the queries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted November 9, 2016 Author Share Posted November 9, 2016 Just to round things off 1961 Inner Down Home -bracket 2 dolls equal height Other signals - tubular All painted in usual aluminium After dieselisation (possibly by 1965) Platform 2 1st starter lost its route indicator 1960 Inner Down Home - square post with route indicator - 2 routes Platform 1 starter - square post Platform 2 starters - both tubular painted aluminium - route indicator has 2 routes Bracket Signal - white gantry rather than black and white post and dolls late GWR and WR 1950s up to possibly 1958 As 1960 but Platform 2 starters were both wooden post signals Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Is there a signal diagram somewhere? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Is there a signal diagram somewhere? See post #2, but you have to find the link yourself. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 Diagrams in the OPC book but it's for 1961 after alterations. There is a plan for 1915 as well. Neither of these are accurate for the period 1920s to 1960. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 10, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2016 The SRS disc has the 1961 diagram and a list of leads (which matches the 1961 diagram) and another diagram dated c.1900 which was probably unaltered until the layout improvements of the late 1920s/30s. There will no doubt also be a diagram in the relevant volume of George Pryer's series of books but I don't have that particular volume so don't know what period(s) it covers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted November 26, 2016 Author Share Posted November 26, 2016 I've been looking more carefully at the book I have recently bought, "The Great Western in South Devon", and there are a few photos new to me, one of which is a very good 1950s shot of the No 1 Platform Starter and No 2 Platform Second Starter, descriptions as are as Pryer/Clark. Now there is clearly some writing on the second signals arm, which looks like "LOOP" to me (Last letter looks most like a P), so perhaps the description in the book is incorrect and it should actually refer to the loop as I can't think what else it could be? Platform No 1 still a square post and the tubular single ones painted aluminium. I can't actually post a photo here because of copyright but if Mike is interested I'll PM him a scan or two. It'll be a week or two before I need to make a decision on this as I have other projects to complete first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 26, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2016 I've been looking more carefully at the book I have recently bought, "The Great Western in South Devon", and there are a few photos new to me, one of which is a very good 1950s shot of the No 1 Platform Starter and No 2 Platform Second Starter, descriptions as are as Pryer/Clark. Now there is clearly some writing on the second signals arm, which looks like "LOOP" to me (Last letter looks most like a P), so perhaps the description in the book is incorrect and it should actually refer to the loop as I can't think what else it could be? Platform No 1 still a square post and the tubular single ones painted aluminium. I can't actually post a photo here because of copyright but if Mike is interested I'll PM him a scan or two. It'll be a week or two before I need to make a decision on this as I have other projects to complete first. If you would please Stephen as that is different from the lever leads listed on the SRS disc (however they are for the 1960 replacement frame). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted November 26, 2016 Author Share Posted November 26, 2016 PM sent Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 I've been looking more carefully at the book I have recently bought, "The Great Western in South Devon", and there are a few photos new to me, one of which is a very good 1950s shot of the No 1 Platform Starter and No 2 Platform Second Starter, descriptions as are as Pryer/Clark. Now there is clearly some writing on the second signals arm, which looks like "LOOP" to me (Last letter looks most like a P), so perhaps the description in the book is incorrect and it should actually refer to the loop as I can't think what else it could be? Platform No 1 still a square post and the tubular single ones painted aluminium. I can't actually post a photo here because of copyright but if Mike is interested I'll PM him a scan or two. It'll be a week or two before I need to make a decision on this as I have other projects to complete first. Are we talking about the 1990 WSP book by Beck & Copsey? If so, then are you referring to the picture on p124? If so, and comparing with the picture on p117, then I would suggest that the legend is 'BAY', which was quite a common feature on GWR signals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 26, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2016 Are we talking about the 1990 WSP book by Beck & Copsey? If so, then are you referring to the picture on p124? If so, and comparing with the picture on p117, then I would suggest that the legend is 'BAY', which was quite a common feature on GWR signals. I have seen the photo (thanks Stephen) and the wording is fairly indistinct - although I understand it is clearer on the original - but I have already expressed the view to Stephen by PM that it might say BAY although it could possibly be a longer word. If the signal applid to the loop it shouldn't, by right, have had a 4 ft arm and it quite clearly has one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted November 27, 2016 Author Share Posted November 27, 2016 I have seen the photo (thanks Stephen) and the wording is fairly indistinct - although I understand it is clearer on the original - but I have already expressed the view to Stephen by PM that it might say BAY although it could possibly be a longer word. If the signal applid to the loop it shouldn't, by right, have had a 4 ft arm and it quite clearly has one. I'll go with BAY then., though why it should say that is another matter which I don't understand as it is referred to as Platform 2 in the Clark book diagram. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 I'll go with BAY then., though why it should say that is another matter which I don't understand as it is referred to as Platform 2 in the Clark book diagram. It was a 'Bay' because it was a dead-end shorter than the main platform. Similar labelling could be found for example on signals at the west end of Taunton. Even the 'back' platform at Dulverton had a signal labelled 'Bay' IIRC and that was not even a dead-end, but of course all the Exe Valley trains used it as such. The signal engineer is not really concerned about platform numbers.....:-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted February 26, 2017 Author Share Posted February 26, 2017 I've been abroad for about a week and come back to a mountain of emails etc, only just starting to catch up. Anyway, I am now re-united with some of my books and GWRJ No 25 in particular, which has loads of stuff on Kingswear. There is a magnificent aerial photo in particular, which shows all the signals in 1959. The 2 single post tubular signals will need to be re-painted in aluminium, otherwise everything else appears as thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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