Private owner merchandise wagons?

[corneliuslundie]

Remember that a lot of the coal from the north east was moved by coaster to the Thames area, and then sometimes by a coal factor or coal merchant's wagon to the final destination. Much of the coal on the LNER and on the Joint Line would have been from collieries outside the ex-NER area.

But that is away from the OP's question.

Jonathan

[t.s.meese]

We are way of the OP on this topic. But I'm more than happy to see all of these comments coming in...

[Hesperus]

Not sure if this technically counts but it feels like it should be mentioned.

 

From Railways in the Yorkshire Dales by K Hoole

 

In 1908 The North Eastern built a special six wheel for the WPMS (Wensleydale Pure Milk Society) and this followed the pattern of the period in having vertical matchboarded sides with numerous louvre panels for ventilation.  Its NER number was 125 and it was built to diagram 168 having a van comp 28ft. long and a guards compartment 3 ft. 3in. long.

 

In LNER days it was lettered on each side:-

 

     MILK                                                   VAN

L.N.E.R.   WENSLEYDALE PURE MILK        125Y

                                            Society Ltd.

                                                           Northallerton.

 

It would appear that it always stayed on the branch until the society folded in 1931.  Theres a picture in the book which I probably shouldn't post on an open forum but can send by PM

[jim.snowdon]

On 24 October 2019 at 09:02, Hesperus said:

Not sure if this technically counts but it feels like it should be mentioned.

 

From Railways in the Yorkshire Dales by K Hoole

 

In 1908 The North Eastern built a special six wheel for the WPMS (Wensleydale Pure Milk Society) and this followed the pattern of the period in having vertical matchboarded sides with numerous louvre panels for ventilation.  Its NER number was 125 and it was built to diagram 168 having a van comp 28ft. long and a guards compartment 3 ft. 3in. long.

 

In LNER days it was lettered on each side:-

 

     MILK                                                   VAN

L.N.E.R.   WENSLEYDALE PURE MILK        125Y

                                            Society Ltd.

                                                           Northallerton.

 

It would appear that it always stayed on the branch until the society folded in 1931.  Theres a picture in the book which I probably shouldn't post on an open forum but can send by PM

It and a whole host of other wagons, many of them CCTs, are in a grey area, not technically PO wagons by virtue of being railway owned, but in a practical sense PO wagons by virtue of being dedicated to a specific user.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

52 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

It and a whole host of other wagons, many of them CCTs, are in a grey area, not technically PO wagons by virtue of being railway owned, but in a practical sense PO wagons by virtue of being dedicated to a specific user.

 

Jim

... mostly the motor car body trade. Currently being discussed from here on:

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

Indeed, and one of better known examples of such "semi-PO" were the vans used by/for Palethorpes' sausage traffic.

 

Jim

[t.s.meese]

I've wondered about those. So, they were owned by the railways then. Do you know how many of them there were? A handful, dozens? And why would these arrangements come into place? If palethorpes wanted special vans why were they not expected to pay for the build? Were they hired? 

[Nearholmer]

There was an excellent article in Backtrack c3 years ago, detailing the history of Palethorpe's vans, back to the very first ones. I can't find my copy, otherwise I'd cite the date/edition.

 

I don't recall whether the article went into the financial arrangements, but it strikes me that if a company contracted for carriage of a lot of goods to be carried on fixed routes and schedules over long durations, as they did, then some vans would logically be dedicated to the traffic, from which it only takes small steps to move to purpose-designed vehicles, and to slapping adverts all over them. A regular, high-volume flow of perishable goods must have been a nice little earner for a railway, so worth keeping the customer happy.

 

The first dedicated Palethorpe's vans were, IIRC, ordinary LNWR(?) passenger rated vans, with rather smart roof-boards added to advertise the contents, and lists of destinations served painted neatly onto the upper panels. They looked rather regal, certainly more tasteful than vans with pictures of packets of bangers on the sides.

 

The CCTs seem, from the other discussion, to have been "not quite dedicated", so available to carry other traffic when not needed by the advertiser, but again the traffic probably earned well - the buyer of a Rolls Royce with luxurious custom made coachwork probably didn't even notice the fat fee for delivering it to the station nearest his palatial residence!

Edited October 25, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

the buyer of a Rolls Royce with luxurious custom made coachwork probably didn't even notice the fat fee for delivering it to the station nearest his palatial residence!

 

Or the sea freight charges:

 

 

 

[Invicta]

20 hours ago, t.s.meese said:

I've wondered about those. So, they were owned by the railways then. Do you know how many of them there were? A handful, dozens? And why would these arrangements come into place? If palethorpes wanted special vans why were they not expected to pay for the build? Were they hired? 

 

I don't think we're talking about large numbers - Other than the early passenger-rated vans with Palethorpes signage that Nearholmer mentioned, the purpose-built LMS 'Palethorpes' fleet was no more than a dozen vehicles. They did come in no less than four different designs- 4 of the 6-wheelers, as modelled by Hornby, a pair of smaller 4-wheel vans, and a pair of 50' bogie vans, all of similar styling, plus 4 (I think) of a distinctive 50' bogie corridor van which had coach windows and double doors on the corridor side, and just double doors on the other.

The GWR also had a number of 6-wheelers (no idea how many) similar to the LMS version- John Isherwood did a thread on modelling the various Palethorpes vans a couple of years back

Edited October 26, 2019 by Invicta

[TheSignalEngineer]

GWR built two Palethorpes vans for the Cardiff traffic. I did post details of the circuit but can't remember at the moment which topic. It went out via Dudley and Worcester then back the following day via Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton IIRC.

[Invicta]

The thought occurs that for the number of vehicles involved, the LMS response to the Palethorpes traffic of providing no less than four different designs of van, all of them in penny-packet numbers, could be seen as being a touch extravagant- Presumably there was a good reason for this?

[Nearholmer]

Progress from no refrigeration, to ice refrigeration, to mechanical refrigeration came into it somewhere. You’d best find the article, because it does explain it all.

[TheSignalEngineer]

In the early days an LNWR van was used. From an engraving used in an advert it looks similar to a four-compartment six wheeler. It had roofboards showing the Palethorpes name. Most of the traffic went in passenger brake vans but the quality suffered particularly in summer.

The 1936 built bogie vans had electric fans to circulate the cold air from the ice boxes. the others just had forced ventilation round the ice tanks

IIRC the small 4-wheelers were for the Heysham circuit (traffic ceased 1954), the bogie vans were used on the Euston and Perth runs whilst the LMS six-wheelers went to Manchester and Newcastle.

[Nearholmer]

Oh, I thought the 1936 vans had mechanical refrigeration, with the kit in a compartment in the middle, and ducting from there to the banger compartments - I must have misremembered that because, by then, they should have had mechanical refrigeration.

[jim.snowdon]

Post deleted - I found the answer several posts further back.

Edited October 27, 2019 by jim.snowdon
I found the answer several posts further back.

[TheSignalEngineer]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Oh, I thought the 1936 vans had mechanical refrigeration, with the kit in a compartment in the middle, and ducting from there to the banger compartments - I must have misremembered that because, by then, they should have had mechanical refrigeration.

Re-checking the article in Steam Days from October 2014, the six-wheelers had 'Forced Ventilation' according to the LMS Traffic Committee Minutes of 26 May 1936. Don't know what the difference to the bogie vans with electric fans.

 

The estimated cost of the eight non-gangwayed LMS vans was reported as £6910, with Palethorpes paying a total of £650 p.a. on top of normal carriage charges for the lettering, increased weight and exclusive use of the vehicles, including return empty to Dudley Port.

[Nearholmer]

This looks blooming interesting, and very relevant, if long.

 

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/18843/1/TS Thesis Final Draft.pdf

[t.s.meese]

7 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Re-checking the article in Steam Days from October 2014, the six-wheelers had 'Forced Ventilation' according to the LMS Traffic Committee Minutes of 26 May 1936. Don't know what the difference to the bogie vans with electric fans.

 

The estimated cost of the eight non-gangwayed LMS vans was reported as £6910, with Palethorpes paying a total of £650 p.a. on top of normal carriage charges for the lettering, increased weight and exclusive use of the vehicles, including return empty to Dudley Port.

Very interesting. (I can hear my wife chuckling over what I find interesting, but, well, you know; I *do* find this interesting...) And thanks to everyone else too, keep them coming, in all varieties - including the pork... But to get back to the OP (I think). Examples of non-mineral open wagons...

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, t.s.meese said:

Examples of non-mineral open wagons...

 

Do you consider building stone counts as mineral?

 

 

See discussion here and following posts.

 

Also artificial paving slabs from Bardon Hill on the Leicester - Burton line, subject of an article in Midland Record No. 6, I think (The Eric Jarvis story). 

 

Non-coal minerals: limestone, lime, salt... are , I suppose, outwith the topic?

[Fat Controller]

34 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Do you consider building stone counts as mineral?

 

 

See discussion here and following posts.

 

Also artificial paving slabs from Bardon Hill on the Leicester - Burton line, subject of an article in Midland Record No. 6, I think (The Eric Jarvis story). 

 

Non-coal minerals: limestone, lime, salt... are , I suppose, outwith the topic?

Quarried stone was classed as 'Earth and stones' traffic until recent times.

[Nearholmer]

Well, whether salt is in or out, I feel compelled to mention a wagon that I saw illustrated in a 1954 model railway magazine that I was leafing through earlier: an absolutely wonderful Shaka Salt, high-sided, round-ended open, rather like low van with the roof missing. Livery was ever-so-slightly-darker-than-sky-blue, and the lettering white "handwriting" edged black. The colour and lettering I remember from a packet of salt in the kitchen cupboard when I was a small boy.

 

The wagon and lettering were rather different from what Peco have produced as a Shaka wagon over the years, and it looked as if it was all-wooden, including the under frame. Condition of the wagon looked excellent, and the photographer expressed amazement at seeing it in traffic in 1954.

 

The Peco versions, based on a peak-roofed wagon, also blue with script logo, but no outline around the lettering, are also correct, at least at “three foot rule” level. There are photos of such a vehicle(s) in the HMRS collection.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

Salt wagons seem to have come in a variety of shapes but all intended to provide better protection from the elements than an ordinary open wagon: the well-known ridged roof type, the high or rounded end type described by @Nearholmer, designed to support a sheet well clear of the load, with no opportinty for hollows to form collecting rainwater; and covered goods wagons (i.e. vans) with side doors and arc roof, though low by "modern" standards: a Droitwich Salt Union example, cropped from a photo of an engine:

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

It didn’t seem fair to hog the Shaka salt wagon, so here it is - superb isn’t?

 

this photo is, if anything, better than the soott and whitewash in the magazine - at least you can enlarge it. I think the script at lower RHS says something like “Empty to Stafford Common (L&M Region) British Railways - For repairs advise Manger’s Salt Works Stafford”.

[Nearholmer]

And here is a picture of salt being loaded into a Chance & Hunt wagon, at their works, also at Stafford Common. https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=32000&SearchType=2&ThemeID=483

 

POWsides make another Stafford salt wagon as a kit by the looks of things. https://www.powsides.co.uk/product.php/mangers_salt_stafford/?k=:::1811054:0

 

And Peco still have ‘wonderful wagon’ sides in 4mm/ft in stock for a Shaka one, and other Stafford one. Get to it you 4mm chaps! https://peco-uk.com/collections/wonderful-wagons/products/shaka-salt

Edited October 28, 2019 by Nearholmer