RMweb Premium uax6 Posted November 28, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2017 Just wandering through the Ambaile archive, I found this photo of pre-grouping wagons at Kyle. But the thing I can't get my head round is the wagon in the lower right foreground marked GB. Which railway was that? Sadly I can't work out how to embed the image here, but the url is: http://www.ambaile.org.uk/en/asset/show_zoom_window_popup_img.html?asset=11877 Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 GE? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastglosmog Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 My guess is that it is actually GE (Great Eastern), with a bit of dirt and wobble on a plank joint making it look like the start of a B. Very interesting photo, though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted November 28, 2017 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2017 GE makes sense, just look how many MR wagons there are there. I'm going to have to buy so many more! Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Standard GE 5plk built before 1900 as they changed the design of the centre door hing after then. looking at the coaches would put the date of the photo some time after 1905 as the highland moved to an all green coach livery. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Yes, you have to remember that if a load was loaded in a 'company' wagon, it wasn't transhipped when it passed onto the territory of another company. What happened to the empty wagon after it had completed its journey is another thing. I think think the first common-user agreement was between the GC, GE and GN in 1907; this allowed ordinary open merchandise wagons to be back-loaded when on those companies' lines, and didn't have to be returned empty to the nearest yard of its owner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted November 28, 2017 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2017 I think that this point is often missed on layouts, and of course plenty of the wagons in that photo probably lasted to BR days, another thing that seems to be missed. Getting a range of wagons from across the country is tricky as I find it makes the library much much bigger! Andy G 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastglosmog Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 .............................. I think think the first common-user agreement was between the GC, GE and GN in 1907; .................... Just checked in the Atkins et al bible and it was actually as late as December 1915. Seems it took the pressures of WW1 to get railway companies to see sense and stop carting so much fresh air about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 28, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2017 I suspect that this photo is post Great War, i.e. the open wagons are in the pool, so naturally wagons of the most common types or from the companies with the largest fleets will predominate - hence the pair of Midland 5-plank opens. I think these are both D299 rather than one of the later diagrams, but note the spring steel door stop and corresponding long plate on the door - late Midland developments. Likewise the Midland 3-plank dropside on the left is fitted with the double door spring mechanism (the drawings for this date from 1908); statistically it's probably D305 but it might just be the later D818 design. Another point to note for late grouping modellers is that sheets were also pooled, so an open wagon need not wear a sheet from the same company. See this photo - I've not worked out where it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 From 1917 to 1919 SECR 7 planks were used by the war dept to ferry US navy munitions. i can't see any in the photo. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 28, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2017 From 1917 to 1919 SECR 7 planks were used by the war dept to ferry US navy munitions. i can't see any in the photo. Marc The photo could well date from the early 20s. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastglosmog Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 The photo could well date from the early 20s. 16" lettering on the two GWR wagons would support that view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 29, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 29, 2017 16" lettering on the two GWR wagons would support that view. I think the further wagon has the 14" G W used on 3-plank wagons, where there wasn't enough room for the 25" G W and the load and tare inscriptions. But I agree the nearer, 4-plank wagon looks to have the 16" letters - and not very freshly painted, so a few years into the 20s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 ...the 14" G W used on 3-plank wagons That ties in with other pics of the pre-1920 era (after which the load and tare descriptions were squeezed in either side of standard 16" G W on 3-plankers), but is 14" an official figure? (The Bible notes merely notes "minor variations occurred on other wagons".) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 29, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 29, 2017 (edited) That ties in with other pics of the pre-1920 era (after which the load and tare descriptions were squeezed in either side of standard 16" G W on 3-plankers), but is 14" an official figure? (The Bible notes merely notes "minor variations occurred on other wagons".) I was going to check that with you as gwr.org.uk says 16". I think I got 14" from Atkins et al. (1998 edition) but I've returned the copy I had to its owner. But I do think that in the OP photo, the letters look smaller on the 3-plank wagon, and also on a 2-plank wagon here (see discussion here et seq.). If the 2-planker has 11" planks, 14" seems about right. The vertically-oriented 4-planker has the 25" letters. While I'm about it, gwr.org.uk says 16" came in about 1920; I had 1923 in my mind, possibly from reading Atkins, so would welcome clarification as I have 1922 as my "reserve" period! EDIT: In the OP photo, if the 4-planker has 7" (or thereabouts) planks, the letters are clearly 16". Edited November 29, 2017 by Compound2632 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 I will check the Atkins et al 1998 in due course. (Strange that its 14" wasn't carried over to the 'edition 3 bible'.) gwr.org's '1920' is a bit of shorthand, and is possibly too accurate, or even inaccurate, so I have just changed it to "c 1920". Does that sound better? The changeover would I think have been gradual (to a degree), which is probably why the books can't tell us exactly when it started. We need some fresh-painted 1920-1922 wagon pics. Agreed the 4-planker is 16". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 Just wandering through the Ambaile archive, I found this photo of pre-grouping wagons at Kyle. But the thing I can't get my head round is the wagon in the lower right foreground marked GB. Which railway was that? Sadly I can't work out how to embed the image here, but the url is: http://www.ambaile.org.uk/en/asset/show_zoom_window_popup_img.html?asset=11877 Andy G Great picture. The number looks to be 23451, and I would say it is a GER Diagram 17 5-plank from the 2200-2400 batch, built no earlier than 1898 and probably 1899. It is a 9'6" w/b, steel u/f type. From 1898 to 1900, separate maker's and load plates were used, fixed on the second to bottom planks 3" from the corner plates, so I assume that is what the oval plate is in your photograph. After which there was a combined plate was located on the bottom plank, right-hand side (see picture below). The date must be far enough in the future for an 1899 wagon to have been repainted in the 1903 large letter livery. The picture below is a 1901 wagon apparently pictured in 1910 that spent 8 years in its old livery before the repaint. Don't thank me, thank Basilica Fields! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 .... and what Company is the (Brake) Van on the far right by the coach, please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 2, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 2, 2017 .... and what Company is the (Brake) Van on the far right by the coach, please. Since it's at Kyle of Lochalsh, presumably it's some ancient Highland vehicle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhar Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 It is indeed a HR brake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) SpecSavers - "Bah Humbug", how did I miss Kyle in the OP?Sorry. Edited December 2, 2017 by Penlan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastglosmog Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) One something like this: https://miscellanymodels.com/rolling-stock/highland-railway-early-pattern-lookout-for-dia-38-brake-van/ Strange that Vallance in his book on the Highland Railway claims there was nothing interesting about HR goods rolling stock! Edited December 2, 2017 by eastglosmog Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 2, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) One something like this: https://miscellanymodels.com/rolling-stock/highland-railway-early-pattern-lookout-for-dia-38-brake-van/ Strange that Vallance in his book on the Highland Railway claims there was nothing interesting about HR goods rolling stock! What a blinkered attitude. There is no such thing as an uninteresting goods wagon, just people who aren't interested in it. Their loss! Edited December 2, 2017 by Compound2632 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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