Stanier 4MTs north of the border

[Guest Max Stafford]

As an enthusiast of the BR era Scottish scene and a great admirer of big tank engines, I've found a curious lack of evidence supporting the presence of the big 2-6-4ts north of the border. From photographic evidence it seems that the work was capably handled by Caley types, backed up by the smaller 3P 2-6-2ts until the arrival of the Fairburns and ultimately Standards. Big Staniers did live at Upperby and Canal, just south of the border and it's conceivable that they often found their way to Dumfries, Langholm and possibly Hawick on a rare occasion. Beyond that though, I've found no evidence so far to suggest any of these big beasties were ever allocated to sheds in Scotland. Can anyone provide any information to the contrary please?

 

Thanks.

 

Dave.

[pH]

Dave, to answer the question in the title ‘Stanier 4MTs north of the border – did they ever get over the wall?’ – the short answer is ‘Yes’. The details of your question seem to show that you’re interested in all the LMS 2-6-4Ts in Scotland, so there’s more detail to add. For some of this, I can lay my hands on evidence; some of it I know I’ve read, but can’t remember where (yet, I hope).

 

Here’s what I know for sure. Two-cylinder Stanier 2-6-4Ts were shedded in Scotland in LMS days – Polmadie had about a dozen in 1945. They were replaced by later deliveries of Fairburns (there were Fairburns there already in 1945). The class was also shopped in Glasgow late on in BR steam days. I saw 42455/42622 at Eastfield in August 1964, 42650/42656 at Eastfield, 42649 at St. Rollox and 42613 at Polmadie in January 1965. (I admit that picture could be anywhere - take my word that it's Polmadie !)

 

Fowler 4MT tanks were shedded in Scotland from the mid-1930s to the mid-1950s. All of those in Scotland had the side-window cabs. Sheds that I know of that had them were Polmadie and the two Greenock sheds – Ladyburn and Princes Pier. I think the last were at Ladyburn – ten of them were transferred from there to English sheds in exchange for Fairburns in March 1954.

 

This is the bit that I can’t remember where I read it. Apparently two of the three-cylinder Stanier 2-6-4Ts were transferred to Corkerhill for trials in LMS days. I seem to remember that, while they performed just fine, the decision was taken to keep the whole class on the ex-LTSR to simplify maintenance.

 

Edit - add two-cylinder Stanier 42478 at Eastfield in May 1965, still carrying the old BR emblem.

Further edit to change '1947' to '1945' - finger problems, sorry.

[Guest Max Stafford]

Thanks Peter, once again you've proved yourself the most useful source of information. I'm assuming that those 1960s sightings you mention were machines from the LMR brought up to the works in Glasgow for overhaul. You've already surprised me with that photo of 75012 at 65B and Greenock. I suspect that loco was knocking up miles prior to shopping too, or running in afterwards.

 

Dave.

[pH]

Dave, those Stanier tanks were from both the LMR and the NER. 75012 was definitely up for works - I think those are 'before' and 'after' photos, though I wouldn't call it an overhaul - more of a 'patch-up'. It wasn't repainted and, if you look, you can see it went into works without a smokebox number plate and came out the same way. Again, like the Stanier tanks, 75xxxs weren't completely unknown in Scotland, before and after works attention. Apart from 75012, I saw 75010 at Gourock in January 1966 and WAC Smith photographed 75026 at Hawkhead in August 1965.

 

(As an aside, having looked at the caption to WAC Smith's photo of 75026 and my own notes, 75026 is probably in green livery in that photo. The caption describes it as an ex-Western Region engine, and I have a note of it in green at Bank Hall shed in January 1966. I think we had a topic about which 75xxxs were in green and when in the old RMWeb, but I haven't found that topic yet.)

['CHARD]

To Hawick, you say?

 

My money's on just a couple: 42277 and 42691, probably on the Class 2 stopper from your manor, and back again, or - your call whether it's more or less likely* - the Carlisle - Hawick daily goods.

 

 

* 'CHARD's boiling water disclaimer applies

[Caledonian]

Bummer, and there's me been successfully resisting temptation...

[pH]

Just to add a bit to the earlier point about Stanier 3-cylinder tanks in Scotland. I've found a reference to 42530 and 42535 being sent to Ardrossan ( why?), then to Corkerhill, Greenock and Beattock before going back to England. There's no date mentioned, but the use of BR numbers would seem to indicate some time after 1948. But that's not the reference I've seen before - it mentioned some details of one's journey north - I'll keep trying to remember.

[LN Lancs]

After the Glasgow Blue trains had problems in 1961, various locos were drafted in to replace them, amongst them Stanier 2-6-4Ts 42426 and 42664. Ivatt 4mts also came north in the shape of 43132,43133 and 43134. An interesting time within Glasgow suburban services.

[Guest Max Stafford]

'Chard. FYI, those two you mentioned are actually Fairburns (the utility front and the bunker profile are the big giveaways in photos. However, Canal had 42440 on the books in '61 in early crest black with OHL flashes! There's a well known photo of it taking the Waverley at Port Carlisle junction en route to silloth. No reason why it couldn't have appeared from time to time on a Langholm or Hawick job then - the big Fowlers certainly looked in on Langholm on a regular basis!

 

Dave.

[Jamie]

Just to add a bit to the earlier point about Stanier 3-cylinder tanks in Scotland. I've found a reference to 42530 and 42535 being sent to Ardrossan ( why?), then to Corkerhill, Greenock and Beattock before going back to England. There's no date mentioned, but the use of BR numbers would seem to indicate some time after 1948. But that's not the reference I've seen before - it mentioned some details of one's journey north - I'll keep trying to remember.

Ardrossan - that shed's heavy peak services from the Coast I suppose. Didn't the Fairburns (and later 5MTs et al) take over from 2Ps on this work?

 

Relevant volume LMS Engine Sheds may hold comment. Will check if a] I remember and b] no-one beats me to it.

[Guest Max Stafford]

Gradually, from the late 40s, the ScR 2Ps' work was gradually usurped by the Fairburns and a host of Class 4 and 5 designs, with the last 2Ps bowing out by 1962. I've even seen Claytons on outer suburban and coast runs - probably why they kept 4MT and 5MT machines until 1967!

 

Dave.

[pH]

Ardrossan - that shed's heavy peak services from the Coast I suppose. Didn't the Fairburns (and later 5MTs et al) take over from 2Ps on this work?

 

Relevant volume LMS Engine Sheds may hold comment. Will check if a] I remember and b] no-one beats me to it.

Jamie, I suppose I meant why Ardrossan and not Corkerhill (first of all), Polmadie, Ayr, Greenock (again, before Ardrossan), Motherwell, Hamilton, Carstairs or Dawsholm, all of which had busy suburban services to support?

[Jamie]

Jamie, I suppose I meant why Ardrossan and not Corkerhill (first of all), Polmadie, Ayr, Greenock (again, before Ardrossan), Motherwell, Hamilton, Carstairs or Dawsholm, all of which had busy suburban services to support?

True, I thought you wondered what use the three touns would put them to.

[pH]

Just to add a bit to the earlier point about Stanier 3-cylinder tanks in Scotland. I've found a reference to 42530 and 42535 being sent to Ardrossan ( why?), then to Corkerhill, Greenock and Beattock before going back to England. There's no date mentioned, but the use of BR numbers would seem to indicate some time after 1948. But that's not the reference I've seen before - it mentioned some details of one's journey north - I'll keep trying to remember.

The only reason I'm resurrecting this very old topic is that today I came across the reference I was talking about in the post above - it was a reader's letter to 'Steam Days'. 42530 and 42535 went to Scotland in August 1951. They appear to have travelled north separately. The writer says he saw 42530 running light at Crewe, heading towards Scotland. He also says the engine appeared to have been in pretty run-down condition, and wonders if it was intentional on the part of the LT&S line to send engines in this state to Scotland so that they would be returned as 'not wanted'.