Mk3 CO - ex FO stock - Photos needed

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

I need photos of the Push-Pull stock - specifically the conversions from FO to CO Mk3 coaches.

 

Does anyone have any or know of any out there on the web?

 

If so.....

 

I need to know!

 

Thanks

[AMJ]

Externally the CO just had the yellow 1st stripe on the end that had the 1st accomodation. Internally half way there was a glass wall with a glass door that swings to divide the 1st & 2nd sections. 1st was 2+1 seating with tables. IIRC the 2nd was 2+2 with tables rather than the later airline style of getting in more seats. However the 2nd I think had the seats at a different pitch as seen by the locations with seats not lined to windows.

[keefer]

iirc they were a real 'half and half'

as AMJ says, yellow stripe above four windows, partition/door in the middle

2nd class side = half a TSO, 1st class side = half an FO

 

the mk3 saloons had a universal 8-window bodyshell, there were longitudinal 'rails' along the floor into which the seats were secured, theoretically at any pitch you fancied.

initially, the 2nd class spacing was 4 2+2 bays with table, with enough room at the inner end for a 2+2 half-bay (or single seats), with a drop down table in the facing seat back. this of course would lead to cetain seats being out-of-whack with the windows, but not as bad as with 'airline' seating

the 1st class seating was always lined up with the windows in 2+1 table bays.

 

so there were 36 2nd/ 24 1st class seats

 

EDIT: just spotted this on therailwaycentre.com, under the entry for mk3 TSOs

"12169-12172 were rebuilt from COs 11908-11910 & 11922, which were previously FOs 11008-11010 & 11022"

'rebuilt' i'd have thought was a bit much, more like 'changed the seats about'

but just goes to show the flexibility of the modular nature of the mk3s

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi AMJ and Keefer,

 

You have both picked up on why I am saking questiuons, looking for photos etc....

 

Yes - thery are true 'half and half' coaches - as Keefer described.

 

It's the 'seats not lining up with windows' thing that I'm trying to sort out as this is essential for achieving the correct look of the coach when viewed side on.

 

Thanks

[AMJ]

Forgot ot say that for day stock the windows were all the same on all seated vehicles. Only the Mk3 catering cars have different windows. ie Same body for FO, SO & CO

 

Before anyone jumps in the 3 WCML Mk3B BFO obviously have a guards section

[Edwin_m]

IIRC the layout described by Keefer was (half of) the layout of a Mk3 TSO as first built. Can anyone confirm this? If so then the interior seating supplied with a RTR TSO might turn out to be just right.

[keefer]

edwin, that's what i'm getting at. AFAICR, the real thing was literally a mk3 body with spliced TSO/FO seating! alas, it seems the curse of 'airline' seating was (unwittingly) built in from the start, i.e. bodyshell can be fitted with as many seats as you dare.

[Flood]

IIRC the layout described by Keefer was (half of) the layout of a Mk3 TSO as first built. Can anyone confirm this? If so then the interior seating supplied with a RTR TSO might turn out to be just right.

The seating for a new Hornby TSO or a Jouef TSO is correct for the second class half of the coach. The COs were converted FOs, 11005 - 11010 and 11022 which became 11905 - 11910 and 11922.

 

All the Mk3 ScotRail push-pull stock were Mk3a. Therefore only the Jouef ones are accurate as they have the 3 Roevac roof vents over each vestibule and not the large square HST vent as used on the Hornby stock.

 

See here for eight(!) black and white shots (these can be clicked on and enlarged).

[keefer]

flood beat me to the link for the b+w phots!

 

incidentally, there doesn't seem to have been a hard and fast rule to the conversions - i.e. looking at the 'toilet' side of the coach, some would seem to have the 1st. class section on the left, some on the right?

 

EDIT: scratch that thought, just realised the mk3s had a similar window in the luggage rack area opposite the toilets? *doh*

[Scottish Modeller]

The seating for a new Hornby TSO or a Jouef TSO is correct for the second class half of the coach. The COs were converted FOs, 11005 - 11010 and 11022 which became 11905 - 11910 and 11922.

 

All the Mk3 ScotRail push-pull stock were Mk3a. Therefore only the Jouef ones are accurate as they have the 3 Roevac roof vents over each vestibule and not the large square HST vent as used on the Hornby stock.

 

See here in colour and here for eight(!) black and white shots (these can be clicked on and enlarged).

Hi Flood,

 

Yes - I know all the details about coach numbers and conversion dates etc.

 

Yes - I know the Joueff and Hornby seating will be correct - try getting some as spares though!

 

Yes - Aware of the differences between Loco hauled and HST stock

 

Yes - I am using Joueff coaches for the model basis....

 

Have visited the various photo links already and found them to be useful.

 

Some clear 'side on' photos would make it easier to sort out the seat alignment positions though!

 

Thanks

[merlin46]

Hi SM

 

This is the only image I have of a Mk3a CO.

 

Hope it is of some use.

 

HTH

 

Tim

[Flood]

Glad the photos are of some use for you.

 

What I do know is that the bays in second class were 1890mm between seat backs, therefore in 1:76 scale you'll have 24.868 mm as the size between the seat backs either side of the table.

 

The following rough drawing should give the idea. I did it for HST coaches but the Mk3a stock had the same seating layout originally:

 

 

Hope this helps a bit.

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi SM

 

This is the only image I have of a Mk3a CO.

 

Hope it is of some use.

 

HTH

 

Tim

Hi Tim,

 

That's great - thanks for the photo.

 

Next challenge will be find a rake with a mix of Mk3's in Blue/Grey and the CO in the same livery as all the photos I've either found or had posted.

 

Thanks to all of you who emailed stuff direct.

[Scottish Modeller]

Glad the photos are of some use for you.

 

What I do know is that the bays in second class were 1890mm between seat backs, therefore in 1:76 scale you'll have 24.868 mm as the size between the seat backs either side of the table.

 

The following rough drawing should give the idea. I did it for HST coaches but the Mk3a stock had the same seating layout originally:

 

 

Hope this helps a bit.

 

Hi Flood,

 

That measurement help a great deal!

 

The drawing makes it easy to set up as well.

 

Now - I worked out a way to do this a bit easier!

 

Make 2 CO's!

 

Take a first and a second Mk3.

 

Repaint both into CO livery.

 

Use half of each seating unit in each coach.

 

Sometimes things are so simple that they just pass you by!

 

Thanks

[jbg06003]

Phil,

 

As something of an aside and not wishing to hijack your thread but I was looking thro my pics for a b/g Mk3 CO (no joy - only Scotrail and none as useful as Tims' above).However, I came across another composite used in the push/pull rakes which I was not previously aware of (coaching stock/looking closely at my pics aint my strong point!!)

 

The following shows an early mk2 (not even going to guess the letter!!) composite immediately behind the DBSO

 

 

Can anybody shed some light??

 

As usual a rare variety of stock being shoved by 47 714 - and not a mk3 in sight!!

 

All you have to do now is find a suitable Bachy mk2!!

 

Bruce

[Scottish Modeller]

Phil,

 

As something of an aside and not wishing to hijack your thread but I was looking thro my pics for a b/g Mk3 CO (no joy - only Scotrail and none as useful as Tims' above).However, I came across another composite used in the push/pull rakes which I was not previously aware of (coaching stock/looking closely at my pics aint my strong point!!)

 

The following shows an early mk2 (not even going to guess the letter!!) composite immediately behind the DBSO

 

 

Can anybody shed some light??

 

As usual a rare variety of stock being shoved by 47 714 - and not a mk3 in sight!!

 

All you have to do now is find a suitable Bachy mk2!!

 

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

 

No problem - It's not a hijack - it's a diversion!

 

Yes - I was aware that there were no B/G CO's from information obtained elsewhere - they were all converted and repainted before release to traffic.

 

That's why I want a photo of one with the rest of - or part of - the rake in B/G.

 

However - to your photo...

 

I've looked long and hard at my photos and I have not got anything like this!

 

Not sure if it is a CO though as I am not aware of any at all.

 

It is more likely to be a Mk2C Corridor Composite.

 

A number of FK were converted in 1985.

 

Number range - If I am correct!

 

7550/1/3/8/61

 

Thanks

[Bob Reid]

I'm not sure Phil you're likely to find a CO in ScotRail livery alongside other blue & grey Mk3s as I'm pretty certain all thirty four vehicles including the FOs were repainted before being later converted to COs by some 2 and a bit? years.

 

 

 

 

[westie7]

Phil,

You have probably looked already but was there not info on mixed rakes in the Scottish Loco Hauled articles in REx?

I would have looked myself but I was stupid enough to put my back issues in a cardboard box in the loft when redecorating and the mice havent left much readable, little B******s

Rgds

Mark

[jbg06003]

Hi Bruce,

 

No problem - It's not a hijack - it's a diversion!

 

Yes - I was aware that there were no B/G CO's from information obtained elsewhere - they were all converted and repainted before release to traffic.

 

That's why I want a photo of one with the rest of - or part of - the rake in B/G.

 

However - to your photo...

 

I've looked long and hard at my photos and I have not got anything like this!

 

Not sure if it is a CO though as I am not aware of any at all.

 

It is more likely to be a Mk2C Corridor Composite.

 

A number of FK were converted in 1985.

 

Number range - If I am correct!

 

7550/1/3/8/61

 

Thanks

 

Thanks for the info Phil - I had a quick trawl thro some pics and found a couple more examples of the Mk2c CK - mostly on Aberdeen-GQS services.

 

I do have a pic of a mk3 CO (in Scotrail livery of course) in a p/p rake with a b/g mk3 but it's a bit of a cheat as the culprit is a sleeper being returned to Glasgow!!.

 

Thanks again,

 

Bruce

[mjkerr]

Externally the CO just had the yellow 1st stripe on the end that had the 1st accomodation. Internally half way there was a glass wall with a glass door that swings to divide the 1st & 2nd sections. 1st was 2+1 seating with tables. IIRC the 2nd was 2+2 with tables rather than the later airline style of getting in more seats. However the 2nd I think had the seats at a different pitch as seen by the locations with seats not lined to windows

Sorry for digging up this old thread, but was actually looking for internal photos (looked before but have spent hours looking previously with no success)

 

As has been pointed out the CO was actually a declassified FO

Eight bays of seats were removed (eight tables and 24 First Class seats), plus the two seats at the table nearest the middle of the coach were removed and replaced by one single seat (giving it a table of three seats)

I suspect an error has crept in, as the ScotRail coaches had not yet been refurbished, so still had the 72 seat layouts

36 Second class (or standard as it later become) seats were installed, as a result these did not match up with the seat numbers (above the windows) or the reading lights (as fitted in FO coaches)

The door then swung into the First Class, by the space created by the missing seat

Externally the yellow stripe at the second class end was replaced by the intercity light grey and the 1 on the door painted over (although towards the end of their life on ScotRail both of these had started showing through)

As noted above, the interiors were still the old original seat types, with the blue / grey in standard class and yellow / orange in First Class

Towards the end of their use in ScotRail the TSO coaches had the "missing" seats fitted, taking them from 72S to 76S and 36S to 38S, the CO coaches were completed first

 

However, the problem I have is, which side / end of the coach retained the First Class seats?

I have looked at the many external photos but it is near impossible to work out

[Flood]

However, the problem I have is, which side / end of the coach retained the First Class seats?

I have looked at the many external photos but it is near impossible to work out

Looking at Merlin's photo above and looking at Dennis Taylor's 80s Rail site the first class end was the end with the cut-out area in the skirted modules. This is seen in Dennis' photo below (although you can't see the yellow stripe in this photo the nearest end is the only one with a '1' on the door):

 

http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p520092474/h17a8a710#h17a8a710

 

Hopefully this is will tell you which end is which.

[mjkerr]

Looking at Merlin's photo above and looking at Dennis Taylor's 80s Rail site the first class end was the end with the cut-out area in the skirted modules

Yes, this is one of the many photos of CO that I have found and confirms which end needs to be converted

However, this still does not answer the question about the orientation of the interior seats, as they are 2+1 layout

This photo is a little deceiving as in the window nearest the number of headrest visible is two, however the one on the left is actually from the seat diagonally opposite behind and is the one nearest the central gangway (bay of 4 seats)

 

A better photo of 11910 however pretty much confirms this, again using the headrests

With the First Class on the left and the Standard on the right, as you face a coach

The bay of 2 seats is nearest and the bay of 4 seats is furthest

[Calmack]

Phil,

 

As something of an aside and not wishing to hijack your thread but I was looking thro my pics for a b/g Mk3 CO (no joy - only Scotrail and none as useful as Tims' above).However, I came across another composite used in the push/pull rakes which I was not previously aware of (coaching stock/looking closely at my pics aint my strong point!!)

 

The following shows an early mk2 (not even going to guess the letter!!) composite immediately behind the DBSO

 

47714_Forteviot_1.jpg

 

Can anybody shed some light??

 

As usual a rare variety of stock being shoved by 47 714 - and not a mk3 in sight!!

 

All you have to do now is find a suitable Bachy mk2!!

 

Bruce

 

 

Hi Bruce,

 

No problem - It's not a hijack - it's a diversion!

 

Yes - I was aware that there were no B/G CO's from information obtained elsewhere - they were all converted and repainted before release to traffic.

 

That's why I want a photo of one with the rest of - or part of - the rake in B/G.

 

However - to your photo...

 

I've looked long and hard at my photos and I have not got anything like this!

 

Not sure if it is a CO though as I am not aware of any at all.

 

It is more likely to be a Mk2C Corridor Composite.

 

A number of FK were converted in 1985.

 

Number range - If I am correct!

 

7550/1/3/8/61

 

Thanks

 

Phil's correct with it being a Mk2C CK, introduced in 1985 by downgrading FK's.  The train is probably a Glasgow-Aberdeen service or Edinburgh-Inverness 'Jacobite' service operating in push-pull mode.  The formation seems to be Mk2F DBSO, Mk2C CK, Mk2D TSO(T)?, Mk2Z/A TSO x2, unidentified coach followed by Class 47/7.  I think I can just make out a stripe above the final window of the coach which would indicate that it is one of the Open Standard (Trolley) coaches.  The next two coaches could be some of the ex Ed-Glas Push-Pull stock - Mk2Z that was converted to air-braked for the PP stock, or Mk2A's which are air-braked anyway.

[Flood]

I reckon the coach by the loco is a BG. Plus I agree that the third coach down is a TSOT.

 

The Aberdeen sets contained BGs from certainly the summer of 1985 to the summer of 1986 (possibly from the start of 1985) so I'd guess it was going to Aberdeen but there is every chance that it could an Aberdeen set on the Jacobite. Probably such a mixed bag because the Mk2 air-con stock was being repainted to ScotRail at the time.