Lochgorm 4mm LNER Cov B Van

[Mallard60022]

Good evening. Has anyone built any Loch Gorm 4mm van or wagon kits (LNER Cov B is the first one I have to tackle)?

If so, are there any things I need to look out for?

I have done a search and there are some references, however the only build appears to be a Highland 6 wheel Brake

Many thanks, Phil @ 36E

[Portchullin Tatty]

however the only build appears to be a Highland 6 wheel Brake

 

Now that would be me but I have also done the van kit they do................!!

 

It is actually a pretty good kit to learn to solder with, I think. It has a number of different tasks to do, from folding up the edges of the fold up body box, sweating together laminated sections and on to some fine work. The kit is good, to the degree that it goes together as you would expect but it does require you to use these different techniques.

[Mallard60022]

Cheers Tatty. That sounds promising. Did you use a RSU as recommended or just sweat (as I will when doing the wee bits)?

Turns out it's actually 3 of the same wagon I'm having to sort out! Wonder if the third will be better than the first? However, maybe my recent Isinglass builds/5522 will have prepared me for 'a number of different tasks'.

Actually this is a neat way of introducing techniques for wagon building and a clever idea by 5522/Loch Gorm; thanks chaps.

Nice 6 wheeler by the way tatty. There's been loads on here recently about the ways to get 3 axles to cope with curvy track .

36E

[Portchullin Tatty]

No I used a traditional soldering iron; I own an RSU and almost never use it - I now many will consider this sacrilege but I have just never got into it. You will need a lot of heat for the sweating of things together.

 

Having just seen your B set pictures, there will be nothing in the Lochgorm stuff that need frighten you!

[Kenton]

You will need a lot of heat for the sweating of things together.

Just what the RSU is best at doing!

[Portchullin Tatty]

Just what the RSU is best at doing!

 

I know, must get more into it!!!

[45609]

Good evening. Has anyone built any Loch Gorm 4mm van or wagon kits (LNER Cov B is the first one I have to tackle)?

If so, are there any things I need to look out for?

 

Hello Phil,

 

I've made one of these as a D2079 built for the LMS. A photo of the result is attached. I still have another unbuilt etch that is destined to become a Cov B with automatic vacuum clasp brakes. I can't remember every detail of the build as it was done a long time ago but if I remember correctly it was advertised as a beginners etched kit. To be honest I recall finding one or two aspects of the kit rather tricky and at the time I felt I was a couple of rungs above the "beginner" level. Folding the square end braces was one especially difficult task as there was very little metal to get hold of. Using a scrawker or triangular file on the fold lines will help. In fact this would help with all fold lines in the kit as the hand drawn artwork means the etched lines are not always as crisp as frets produced from CAD artwork. I found an RSU was essential for attaching the small details like the door runners and stops. I didn't use the W irons provided as I'm not an advocate of compensation. Instead I used a Masokits sprung underframe along with MJT axle box/spring castings. Sprung buffers are MJT also. Brake gear and vacuum cylinder are ABS castings.

 

Obviously having said all this a nice model can result and it certainly seems to be good VFM.

 

Cheers....Morgan

[Mallard60022]

Thanks Morgan. The Instructions now strongly recommend scrawking the half etch lines; maybe your experience and that of others helped with this?

Great looking van and thanks especially for the tips. I too will be using MJT axle stuff.

P @ 36E

[Wizard of the Moor]

Regarding bending the end stanchions on this kit, or any other etched parts that fold into a narrow 'U' or 'C' shape, don't try to make 90 degree bends in sequence.

 

Instead, bend one side of the stanchion to about 50 degrees. Then bend the other side to roughly the same angle.

 

Now place the part between the jaws of your bench vice, with the bent sides parallel to the jaws, and gently squeeze the two sides of the stanchion together.

 

Use a packing piece of wood (lolly stick or match) in the middle of the stanchion to prevent crushing it, but with care this is not a difficult operation.

 

As Morgan said, deepening the fold lines with a scrawker (Tamiya or Olfa plastic cutters work for me) will help a lot.

[45609]

James,

 

What a really good idea for doing the end stanchions. Duly noted for future reference. I have to say that this little nugget is one of the real benefits of participating and discussing stuff on RMweb.

 

Having mined in the loft this evening for the other etch and instruction sheet (dated 2002) there are a couple of things to add. I had actually forgotten how comprehensive the instructions were and, as Phil pointed out, the comments about scoring the half etched lines is mentioned a few times. I have also noticed that the W irons provided give a compensated or sprung underframe option. However the sprung option requires extra effort in filing out the bearing slots along with the challenge of soldering on 4 individual W irons and getting them square. The writer of the instructions also suggests using just Masokits springs with these. I can see now that I went for a complete Masokits set up because it was, by design, guaranteed to be square and less work to assemble. The most interesting bit of the instructions is the quote below from the Acknowledgements section....

 

".....in the face of considerable objections to this venture from certain members of other 4mm societies who ought to know better. The only thing these Luddites succeeded in doing was delayng this venture. They know who they are, and the egg is on their faces....."

 

I wonder who they were but who really cares 9 years on? Anyway despite the self correction from my first post I stand by what I said. It's a decent kit, good value for money and I suppose now that I have got it out the loft I had better build it.

 

Cheers.......Morgan

[Mallard60022]

James,

 

".....in the face of considerable objections to this venture from certain members of other 4mm societies who ought to know better. The only thing these Luddites succeeded in doing was delayng this venture. They know who they are, and the egg is on their faces....." This is what instructions need - more humour!

 

Anyway despite the self correction from my first post I stand by what I said. It's a decent kit, good value for money and I suppose now that I have got it out the loft I had better build it.*

 

Cheers.......Morgan

 

Oh ar*e that means I've got to start mine soon or be made to look like exposed as someone who spends all their time looking at this Forum . I do have loads of coaches to do first though - honest!

P @ 36E

[Mallard60022]

I have started the LNER version of this kit; at the week end when SWMBO was away & after the rugby when I needed to calm down . I'm also 'between coaches' at the moment.

Rather like Morgan I have found some parts challenging, but I am but a simple fellow!

I should also have come back to this thread and looked at Morgan's lovely picture of his build as it shows the position of some things really well (but his is the LMS version).

Now I am no doubt daft, but for example I couldn't find an indication of where the door latch should go. OK so my guess was right about it's position on the door (logic) but I would have fitted it incorrectly without Morgan's picture for reference.

I may post a couple of pics of the part build tomorrow? I am however, rather ashamed of some of the errors I have made because I did not get a good set of pics of the prototype to help me out and I have not translated the instructions /diagrams very well.

If you go for this kit I would suggest it is a must to have pics unless you are an expert on how wagons should look/go together.

Many folk recommend starting with an etched wagon kit before going on to do metal loco's and coaches. I started the other way round and this is my first metal wagon and don't I know it

I am doing two part builds of this kit so the next will /should be easier, but there are still some parts that I will just not be able to get together properly. I'm just too 'ham fisted' .

My conclusion about this kit is that it is a very good etch, there are many small and 'fragile parts' but it will make up into a good looking wagon.

Whether it could be termed a 'beginner's kit' is something I would debate, but that is but my opinion.

As a challenge and for fun it is recommended as it is expertly designed and so the bulk of the kit goes together very easily. One or two extra hints and tips in the instructions and another one or two sketches would be very helpful. One also needs to be ready to sweat a geat deal, both physically and technically

P @ 36E

[Mallard60022]

Here it is! Oh dear, the more I look at it the more I think.... why?

[Guest Max Stafford]

Worry ye not sir, it looks like you've done most of the hard work already! I have two of these to do myself. I might even dig out the RSU. I've had it for a year and never used it, so maybe now's the hour!

Does the LMS variant require vac. gear? I would assume from the bauxite livery that this would be the case, but it's obviously a different set-up from the LNER type.

I think I may well do both as the LMS variant, seeing as Bachmann have covered the LNER version in a very competent fashion now.

 

Dave.

[Blenheim]

I have also noticed that the W irons provided give a compensated or sprung underframe option. However the sprung option requires extra effort in filing out the bearing slots along with the challenge of soldering on 4 individual W irons and getting them square. The writer of the instructions also suggests using just Masokits springs with these. I can see now that I went for a complete Masokits set up because it was, by design, guaranteed to be square and less work to assemble. The most interesting bit of the instructions is the quote below from the Acknowledgements section....

 

".....in the face of considerable objections to this venture from certain members of other 4mm societies who ought to know better. The only thing these Luddites succeeded in doing was delayng this venture. They know who they are, and the egg is on their faces....."

 

I wonder who they were but who really cares 9 years on? Anyway despite the self correction from my first post I stand by what I said. It's a decent kit, good value for money and I suppose now that I have got it out the loft I had better build it.

 

Cheers.......Morgan

 

Nicely observed and finished D2079 van, by the way.

 

I have a couple of these kits stashed away waiting for some workshop time. I think I purchased at least one set of Masokits stainless steel springs to use with the W-irons in the kit, but there's always the option of redoing the axle guards with the Masokits version as you did. I built a BR-fitted LMS D2079 version from the now-withdrawn Parkside Dundas kit, but the roof is too short and I messed up the transfers.

 

I believe the comment in the Acknowledgements section was a reference to a few? people on the e4um mailing list at the time, but that's about the limit of my knowledge as I have never been a member of that mailing list. (Mr Wright would know, of course!)

[Mallard60022]

Worry ye not sir, it looks like you've done most of the hard work already! I have two of these to do myself. I might even dig out the RSU. I've had it for a year and never used it, so maybe now's the hour!

Does the LMS variant require vac. gear? I would assume from the bauxite livery that this would be the case, but it's obviously a different set-up from the LNER type.

I think I may well do both as the LMS variant, seeing as Bachmann have covered the LNER version in a very competent fashion now.

 

Dave.

Thanks Dave; I have the knitting of the vac brake stuff and axle gear to tackle next!

It would seem that the LMS version does not require the vac gear but I've no idea what happened to them in BR days . The RSU will be very helpful - honestly.

Re. the Bachman version; this is a 'part build' for a good lady who when told of these as an alternative.... 'would not be having the plastic things - wash your (my) mouth out with soap etc.' (as she put it). She wants two of these as well! Good on her but I'm the mug building them!

Good luck with yours & Blenheim I think personally that the Masokits sets would be a good alternative and maybe easier?

P @ 36E

[Portchullin Tatty]

I have the knitting of the vac brake stuff and axle gear to tackle next!

 

There is a very good drawing of the underside of the LNER vac break scheme in my father's book - LNER Wagons (the original ones, either the OPC or Pendragon versions). This will be repeated in volume 4 of the Wild Swan books but the publication date of this has not yet be set - but it is likely to be soon.

[45609]

Hi,

 

Very nice progress on the van Mallard and I'm glad my photo has helped out. It is also interesting to see that your comments aren't too far away from mine. I do worry sometimes when posting honest feedback in reply to questions about quality and DFA (design for assembly) of kits. The designer could be lurking waiting to jump on what you have said with any of a range of possible responses. Perhaps I should add my comments are just my personal opinions. Take then or leave them as you see fit.

 

I think some of the other questions have been more or less answered but I'll add my thoughts anyway.

 

Does the LMS variant require vac. gear?

AFAIK all the LMS examples were built unfitted with single sided Morton brake gear. Very basic and in keeping with the wartime economies under which they were built. LNER ones had full vacuum clasp brake gear, otherwise known by the LNER as AVB, from new. Later on (not sure of the dates) some of the LMS vans were rebuilt with fitted double sided Morton vacuum brakes which needed a tie rod between the W irons. This is how I have represented my model and it is based on a photo (Plate 105) in LMS Wagons Vol 1 by Bob Essery. However there is a deliberate mistake/piece of modellers licence on mine that is different from the photo. Anyone care to have a guess?

 

By the way Plate 104 in this book also shows a photo of the "as built" LMS version complete with 3 link couplings and LNER axle boxes.

 

Nicely observed and finished D2079 van, by the way.

Thank you sir.

 

I think I purchased at least one set of Masokits stainless steel springs to use with the W-irons in the kit, but there's always the option of redoing the axle guards with the Masokits

Go for the latter option. I tried using the W irons supplied in the kit and whilst it looks like they will work I found that the Masokits springs didn't fit properly and would bind when compressed. Far easier to use the parts that have been designed by the same chap.

 

Cheers....Morgan

[Blenheim]

[Hmm, I couldn't get Multiquote to work, so this may seem a little out of context. (Firefox with NoScript on Win XP...)]

 

Go for the latter option. I tried using the W irons supplied in the kit and whilst it looks like they will work I found that the Masokits springs didn't fit properly and would bind when compressed. Far easier to use the parts that have been designed by the same chap.

 

Cheers....Morgan

 

Thanks -- that is useful to know, and saves me from covering the same ground when I find a round tuit. (I need to remember to scribble a note to self to include with the kit for the future, though.) Fortunately, I have a few Masokits sprung W-irons etches in stock.

 

I used CCT transfers for my Parkside Dundas version, copying the number of the van shown in LMS Wagons Vol. 1, but I found that something in Humbrol thinners (while doing the weathering) disolved the carrier film! My varnish protection was clearly not up to the job. (I think I may have used the original Humbrol acrylic matt varnish, but it was a few years ago...)

[Mallard60022]

Hi,

 

Very nice progress on the van Mallard and I'm glad my photo has helped out. It is also interesting to see that your comments aren't too far away from mine. I do worry sometimes when posting honest feedback in reply to questions about quality and DFA (design for assembly) of kits. The designer could be lurking waiting to jump on what you have said with any of a range of possible responses. Perhaps I should add my comments are just my personal opinions. Take then or leave them as you see fit.

 

I think some of the other questions have been more or less answered but I'll add my thoughts anyway.

 

 

AFAIK all the LMS examples were built unfitted with single sided Morton brake gear. Very basic and in keeping with the wartime economies under which they were built. LNER ones had full vacuum clasp brake gear, otherwise known by the LNER as AVB, from new. Later on (not sure of the dates) some of the LMS vans were rebuilt with fitted double sided Morton vacuum brakes which needed a tie rod between the W irons. This is how I have represented my model and it is based on a photo (Plate 105) in LMS Wagons Vol 1 by Bob Essery. However there is a deliberate mistake/piece of modellers licence on mine that is different from the photo. Anyone care to have a guess?

 

By the way Plate 104 in this book also shows a photo of the "as built" LMS version complete with 3 link couplings and LNER axle boxes.

Thank you sir.

Go for the latter option. I tried using the W irons supplied in the kit and whilst it looks like they will work I found that the Masokits springs didn't fit properly and would bind when compressed. Far easier to use the parts that have been designed by the same chap.

 

Cheers....Morgan

 

Alistair (the kit designer) has very kindly sent me these pics and he won't mind me posting them as it shows just how good these vans can look.

So, my second one should look like the one on the left then

(Oh, I've almost completed the first but found that the good lady had included 14 mm wheels; it took me about half an hour to fathom that out as I struggled with the under-gear; DOH!)

 

Have to recommend these little kits; a good challenge for a rainy weekend.

P @ 36E

[Mallard60022]

Will this ever get to look a little like Alistair's?

[45609]

It certainly looks well on the way and you've done most of the hard work. Having said that I think you may have put the door rollers on the wrong way round. Compare them to my photo.

 

Cheers....M

[Mallard60022]

It certainly looks well on the way and you've done most of the hard work. Having said that I think you may have put the door rollers on the wrong way round. Compare them to my photo.

 

Cheers....M

 

Yes I thought that too but I wasn't going to bother. Now you've mentioned it perhaps I'll whip em off tomorrow and alter the door rollers too . Let's face it I've got to put on some other bits.

P

[Portchullin Tatty]

Yes I thought that too but I wasn't going to bother. Now you've mentioned it perhaps I'll whip em off tomorrow and alter the door rollers too . Let's face it I've got to put on some other bits.

P

 

The hangers for the rollers are on on the right hands, but you have put them on at a slope. The bottom portion (with the rivets) is in fact a corner angle plate. Turn the left hand one so its left side is verticle and it will be correct; mirror image with the right hand one.

 

Two minutes and you will always "know" if you don't!!

[Mallard60022]

The hangers for the rollers are on on the right hands, but you have put them on at a slope. The bottom portion (with the rivets) is in fact a corner angle plate. Turn the left hand one so its left side is verticle and it will be correct; mirror image with the right hand one.

 

Two minutes and you will always "know" if you don't!!

 

'Tis done (well last night anyway!)

Thanks

P @ 36E