Oil tank wagons and traffic on post-WWII GWR

[BenL]

Hi there,

 

I model the post-WWII GWR and I've been trying to find out what type of oil tank wagons and what degree of oil traffic would be appropriate for the region and period. To my novice eye, a lot of the available RTR oil tanks look a little too 'modern' for the mid to late 1940s but I would be very grateful if anyone can point me in the direction of any RTR wagons that are of appropriate design and livery for the period. For eg, would the set of 3 weathered Shell/BP oil tanks recently offered by Model Zone/The Signal Box be appropriate?

 

And what was the nature of the oil traffic at the time? Was it mainly block trains running between refineries and ports and major cities or would one have seen the odd tank or two on a provincial mixed goods? I model Cornwall myself and I've seen a few post-war GWR photos from the Dutchy that appear to show a couple of tank wagons in a mixed goods, but I'm not certain if they are oil tanks or not. Any info and guidance would be much appreciated!

 

Cheers,

 

Ben

[Kenton]

The GWR (and AFAIK other companies) were not known for their oil tanks.

Thw GWR tanks were used to carry water, gas, creosote, and very late just pre WWII paints, varnishes and other chemicals for ICI. It may have been these that were observed.

 

The first "conventional" tank (single cylinder) design was built in 1895 (Diag DD3) They held 3108 gallons and were built on wagon department frames with the tanks built by the loco dept. A single lot of 47 were built - A second lot was ordered but never built.

 

I guess that there was little call for bulk oil/liquid transport or that it was transported in smaller containers, barrels, cans, in opens.

 

One other thing that may be relevant to your period is that after WWII and just before nationalisation some contemporary milk tanks were converted under Diag. DD7 for use in oil traffic. They were for some inexplicable reason given GWR building plates. Perhaps it was these that were seen. I have no idea how long they lasted or how many were converted.

[The Stationmaster]

At that period there was at least one Govt strategic reserve oil depot in GWR territory (Flax Bourton) plus Padworth at Aldermaston and both would have received whole or part trainloads. There were other terminals/unloading points taking fuel for aviation purposes as well. As far as my knowledge stretches most other petroleum traffic ran to small terminals in or near goods yards and they would take only a handful of tankcars at a time - those cars would most likely be conveyed in ordinary freight trains as just a part of a very mixed panoply of traffic. Oh and of course the late 1940s saw some GW loco depots taking fuel oil in tankcars.

[Fat Controller]

Don't forget that Britain's first major refinery was on GWR territory- Llandarcy, latterly operated by BP, was opened in the 1920s. The original operating company was the Anglo-Persian Oil Company- the BP logo and title didn't appear until 1954.

[Kenton]

OK, just had to get the reference books out on this one ...

it just didn't seem likely that only 47 tanks would cover ALL liquid traffic up to nationalisation.

 

but this seems to be partially true and continued to be the case well into the late 50's.

 

I say "partially" because that is the sum total of the "GWR" tanks (excluding, the cordons (gas) the water tanks, creosotes and the milk tanks (which as said above were late GWR (glass lined) and some converted - BTW these frequently ran in passenger trains.

 

There were an unknown quantity of private owned tank cars both mounted and demountable. So the ones referred in the OP could well have been these. There is a couple of inspirational photos in "GWR Freight Wagons and Loads" JH Russell ISBN 0860931552 ff 324-325 the first dated 1962 (so too late) though to describe these as GWR is really inappropriate. ff324 shows a row of tanks marked Shell and BP

 

I don't have all the "private owner" books, perhaps further detail can be obtained from them?

[The Stationmaster]

Tourret's book is, of course, the best source but alas I don't have it. In the post WWII period tank cars might still have been running in pool status - I don't know when that finished - and presumably all the US bogie cars had been taken out of service in Britain by then as they had principally been here to serve US bases during the war. I think the big questions will be establishing when the wartime pool working finished and what liveries had been introduced, or could still be found, during that period. Bachmann have done plenty of pre-nationalisation liveries but some are definitely pre-war and I've no idea how accurately their tank cars portray any of the RCH designs which would have been in use at that time.

My best advice is to have a search for Tourret's book - or find somebody who has got one There are also 'preserved' tank cars at a number of sites including both the 1911 and 1930 RCH designs but I don't know if they are in authentic liveries.

Addendum - Paul Bartlett's site might also be worth a look for wagon types (although not for 1940s liveries)

[Guest dilbert]

Prior to nationalisation, was the transport of petroleum based products a part of the common carrier remit of the railway companies ? OK for internal requirements, but there seems to be no significant railway company orientated building programmes, PO tankers being built by third parties for non-railway customers ... dilbert

[The Stationmaster]

Prior to nationalisation, was the transport of petroleum based products a part of the common carrier remit of the railway companies ? OK for internal requirements, but there seems to be no significant railway company orientated building programmes, PO tankers being built by third parties for non-railway customers ... dilbert

 

Certain stuff was covered by the standard Conditions of Carriage and the Scale of Rates & Charges but they only allowed for small quantities - in fact in most cases I seem to recall that they specifically limited such stuff to small quantities. This suggests to me that if any some types of such traffic was presented in greater quantities then special packaging arrangements (e.g a tank car) were needed. As far as I'm aware for as long as they were Common Carriers the Railways could not refuse to convey vehicles which complied with RCH requirements, including colour schemes in the case of tank cars conveying petroleum products.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Google "rail oil tank wagons" and have a browse through what come up there. You should find something interesting.

 

You ask about the Modelzone 'Shell, tanks. Yes the wagons are fine for your time slot for Class B products but you may need more research on whether the livery is right for your time (it probably is). IIRC (from reading, not from personal experience) the mandatory colour for Class A tanks was changed from buff to silver with red solebars just before the war but then everything went dark grey for the duration. Silver came back after the war but this was change to grey, still with red solebars, in the 50s.

 

The Arifx / Hornby 20 Ton tanker is also appropriate for your time.

 

As the SM says, Tourret's book is an excellent source although it can sometimes be difficult to date the photos. HMRS also do a book about the rail transport of oil products.

[Oil-burner]

Leafing through the HMRS book "Oil on the Rails" confirms that there is a dearth of photographic evidence there to assist the OP in his specific request, but there are a few pointers. An b/w aerial shot of Avonmouth Depot in 1946 shows the rail sidings but is taken from such a height that the only thing one can safely derive from it is that the rail tankers vary in colour from light to very dark so if they were painted a uniform overall admiralty grey in '39 they didn't stay very uniform.

 

Of a little more use are the shots of Avonmouth in '49 and a Power Petroleum depot 'about 1940' which both have an end view of a rail tanker. In both cases (both b/w shots of course) they appear to be an Admiralty(ish) grey overall with black numerals on the end. As to whether they carried a red stripe on solebar or tank in wartime I am open to input from other RMWebbers who may know better but I've not seen any evidence of that in the HMRS book or when I looked through Tourret a couple of years back - not easy to pick out on a b/w shot in any case. I don't believe they would have carried any branding (ie Shell or Power etc) once the Petroleum Board took over in '39 until it's dissolution in June '48 but again open to correction on that.

 

Allegedly there were 7635 rail tankers owned by the oil companies in use in '38 of which about 6000 were in the range of 10 to 15 tons so fait to assume that the majority of tankers taken over by the Petroleum Board would have been 14 tonners, with a few 1927 pattern 20 tonners. From the photos in the HMRS book again you could use 14T RTR tankers with wire ropes which loop around the filler, holding down bands and transverse braces, but you would be best to steer clear of tankers with side ladders and top platforms for the period quoted as they seem not to have been common till the mid 50s judging by the book, though the 1927 pattern apparently were fitted with small platforms in the 40s.

 

John Isherwood of Cambridge Custom Transfers does a set of markings for 12 Petroleum Board 14T Oil tank wagons (sheet BL86) which contains a sequence of end numbers, tare markings and the necessary 'For repairs contact the Petroleum Board' legends (no connection etc).

 

As to make up of trains, wartime saw an end to individual tank wagons in mixed freight trains to supply the smaller depots, block trains were very much de rigeur in wartime with special oil trains of between 20 and 56 railcars "depending on the route, the longest being on the Great Western", by the mid 50s there were still around 80 of these block train movements per week....and increasing numbers of road tankers.

 

Just a wild thought.....If you are really into your block trains and want something to rival Pendon's long coal you could bulk two oil trains together, say 80 -90 tanks, with a brake at each end, barrier wagons, and double head them as was apparently done in adverse weather.

[Poor Old Bruce]

you would be best to steer clear of tankers with side ladders and top platforms for the period quoted as they seem not to have been common till the mid 50s judging by the book, though the 1927 pattern apparently were fitted with small platforms in the 40s.

I am fairly sure I read somewhere that the ladders and platforms started to be fitted during the war but it would probably have been only a 'modification' (that's a 'retro-fit' to youngsters) as and when repairs or overhauls were undertaken. That doesn't mean that there were no ladders before the war or that all were ladder-fitted after.

[BenL]

Many thanks to you all for your very helpful replies, I've learnt a great deal.

 

It seems the Shell/BP wagons I mentioned are probably not appropriate given their livery, esp as BP didn't come about until 1954, which I didn't realise! It also sounds like a couple of oil wagons in a mixed goods would have been rather unlikely, so I may have to avoid oil traffic in the end. I also guess a degree of special equipment would have been required to unload the wagons and that few provincial goods sheds in the likes of Cornwall would have had the necessary equipment?

 

I've got Tourret's book on GWR wagons but I'm not sure this is the book a couple of posters are referring to - has he done one on PO wagons too? If so, I guess that would be much more helpful in getting a better idea of oil tank liveries, which seems to be a tricky topic for this period. Thanks though to 'Oil-burner' for his synopsis of the HMRS work, which sounds like the most helpful source available.

 

Thanks again to you all, very much appreciated!

[David C]

No need to ditch oil traffic on your West Country layout at all! Several GW branch terminii had oil depots: Newcastle Emlyn, Barnstaple, Faringdon and (I think) Cardigan as well. They were small depots and photos show only one or two oil tanks parked there which presumably would have been worked in by the local pick up goods.

 

There have also been a couple of articles in MRJ years and years ago on prototype oil depots (don't ask me which ones!)and they're suitability for modelling. Storage tanks were usually located either some way from the track or even underground, along with the associated pipework. All that was visible were hoses and standpipes to connect the railway tankers to the storage tanks.

 

A bit of research might be necessary but I'm sure you don't need to abandon the idea on your layout.

 

David C

[Fat Controller]

Many thanks to you all for your very helpful replies, I've learnt a great deal.

 

It seems the Shell/BP wagons I mentioned are probably not appropriate given their livery, esp as BP didn't come about until 1954, which I didn't realise! It also sounds like a couple of oil wagons in a mixed goods would have been rather unlikely, so I may have to avoid oil traffic in the end. I also guess a degree of special equipment would have been required to unload the wagons and that few provincial goods sheds in the likes of Cornwall would have had the necessary equipment?

 

I've got Tourret's book on GWR wagons but I'm not sure this is the book a couple of posters are referring to - has he done one on PO wagons too? If so, I guess that would be much more helpful in getting a better idea of oil tank liveries, which seems to be a tricky topic for this period. Thanks though to 'Oil-burner' for his synopsis of the HMRS work, which sounds like the most helpful source available.

 

Thanks again to you all, very much appreciated!

I wouldn't worry too much about sophisticated unloading equipment- motor spirit was often 'siphoned' from the tank wagons into waiting road tankers or jerry-cans in the early days. Access to the loading/unloading hatch would be by a ladder leaning on the tank side- I'm trying to think where I've seen photos of this. Storage, such as it was, would be in a brick building in the corner of the yard.

I've had a cursory glance at 'A Historical Survey of Selected Great Western stations, which has produced the following:-

A plan of Helston shows a couple of 'oil stores' in the corner of the yard;

Kingsbridge shows 'Pratt's petrol store';

Leominster shows 'Spirit store';

Newquay has a 'petrol store'near the cattle pens;

Par has an 'oil tank', next to the line to Newquay;

Bridport shows three oil tanks.

Whilst some of the oil stores might well be for railway lamp and signal oil, others are certainly connected with the storage and distribution of fuel. Bear in mind that the quantities of fuel involved would be relatively small, as motor vehicles were relatively scarce.

A final thought; as everyone seemed to smoke at the time, it's astonishing that fires and explosions seemed to be relatively scarce..

[Poor Old Bruce]

I've got Tourret's book on GWR wagons but I'm not sure this is the book a couple of posters are referring to - has he done one on PO wagons too? If so, I guess that would be much more helpful in getting a better idea of oil tank liveries, which seems to be a tricky topic for this period. Thanks though to 'Oil-burner' for his synopsis of the HMRS work, which sounds like the most helpful source available.

Bob Tourret has done a book on 'Petroleum Tank Wagons of British Railways' (I think that title is something like correct, I'll try to remember to check when I get home) which covers the principles of tank wagon design and fleet descriptions of owners/users. The second edition came out a couple of years ago at about 33 quid but it is a fascinating and (as far as I can tell) comprehensive read although not all the photos are dated to be able to date the various liveries.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Sorry folks, it's 'Petroleum Rail Tanks of Britain' ISBN 978-0-905878-09-6, published in 2009 by Tourret Publishing (i.e. by the bloke wot wrote it).

[hmrspaul]

Many thanks to you all for your very helpful replies, I've learnt a great deal.

 

It seems the Shell/BP wagons I mentioned are probably not appropriate given their livery, esp as BP didn't come about until 1954, which I didn't realise! It also sounds like a couple of oil wagons in a mixed goods would have been rather unlikely, so I may have to avoid oil traffic in the end. I also guess a degree of special equipment would have been required to unload the wagons and that few provincial goods sheds in the likes of Cornwall would have had the necessary equipment?

 

I've got Tourret's book on GWR wagons but I'm not sure this is the book a couple of posters are referring to - has he done one on PO wagons too? If so, I guess that would be much more helpful in getting a better idea of oil tank liveries, which seems to be a tricky topic for this period. Thanks though to 'Oil-burner' for his synopsis of the HMRS work, which sounds like the most helpful source available.

 

Thanks again to you all, very much appreciated!

 

Ben

 

You have been misled by some of the comments on here. If you can find them (please tell us where!) the Modelzone wagons would be fine.

 

Shell and BP formed a joint marketing company in 1932. By 1938 Class A tanks had very large SHELL on one side of the wagon and BP on the other, stone tank and stone solebar. Wartime altered to battleship grey with austerity small numbering and red solebar. After the war the tanks were silverette with large lettering (as before) in green. Class B tanks from 1936 had the SHELL and BP on both sides on the black tank. With some modification this lasted until 1961 (and was carried by most of these unfitted tanks until SMBP finally gave up this ancient decrepit fleet and built thousands of VB and AB tanks). In WW2 this livery was not used, instead black with austerity numbering.

 

The best source of information for your period, with photographs is

 

Fidczuk, Peter. (1993a) Air Ministry tank wagons part 1: The war years. Modellers' Backtrack vol. 3 (part 1) pp 30 - 37.

Drawing Air Ministry 14t class A tank, welded.

 

Fidczuk, Peter. (1993b) Air Ministry tank wagons part 2: Post war service. Modellers' Backtrack vol. 3 (part 2) pp 60 - 69.

Drawings - SMBP (ex AirMinistry) 14t class B tank, riveted and SMBP 16t Bitumen tank wagon.

 

As others have said, there were many places provided with the means to unload such tank wagons so they often worked in just small numbers to these.

 

Paul Bartlett

[BenL]

Thanks very much Paul for the extremely helpful insights and the pointers for further research.

 

I should have bought those Modelzone tanks when I saw them!

 

Cheers,

 

Ben

[hmrspaul]

Thanks very much Paul for the extremely helpful insights and the pointers for further research.

 

I should have bought those Modelzone tanks when I saw them!

 

Cheers,

 

Ben

Yes, an earlier comment on their availability on this site would have been useful! We (Ebor GRM) needed them for Rowntrees Halt, and missed them!

 

Hopefully Bachmann will produce some for themselves. These SMBP tanks are by far and away the commonest tank wagons operating from the early 1930s until c 1965 and it is strange that Bachmann have never done them.

 

Paul Bartlett

[BenL]

Yes, an earlier comment on their availability on this site would have been useful! We (Ebor GRM) needed them for Rowntrees Halt, and missed them!

 

Hopefully Bachmann will produce some for themselves. These SMBP tanks are by far and away the commonest tank wagons operating from the early 1930s until c 1965 and it is strange that Bachmann have never done them.

 

Paul Bartlett

 

We'll have to keep a look out for a set!

 

I've just found an online reference to a similar set of 3 Shell-BP tanks Bachmann did (code 37-699). There have the same basic livery, although a few extra 'labels' that make them look like they might be post-48?

[kevinlms]

No need to ditch oil traffic on your West Country layout at all! Several GW branch terminii had oil depots: Newcastle Emlyn, Barnstaple, Faringdon and (I think) Cardigan as well. They were small depots and photos show only one or two oil tanks parked there which presumably would have been worked in by the local pick up goods.

 

There have also been a couple of articles in MRJ years and years ago on prototype oil depots (don't ask me which ones!)and they're suitability for modelling. Storage tanks were usually located either some way from the track or even underground, along with the associated pipework. All that was visible were hoses and standpipes to connect the railway tankers to the storage tanks.

 

A bit of research might be necessary but I'm sure you don't need to abandon the idea on your layout.

 

David C

 

 

MRJ No. 60 page 40. model of Aberystwyth Oil Depot, preview. Not sure about follow up - Anyone?

MRJ No 141 for 'typical' pre-war Oil depot & follow up No. 144. This one Maud GNSR.

MRJ No. 133 for an early 'mixed' type of tank. The Original 3 in 1 Oil Tanker in 7mm

MRJ No. 139, 141 & 142 for Layerthorpe DVLR depot.

MRJ No. 60 & 61 follow up - Petrol depot. GNR

 

 

Kevin Martin