trent Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Hi guys Been thinking about modelling the great Nine Elms MPD and wondered if the collective experience here could assist with some questions. First off the massive coaling stage. Does anyone know if this was a one-off construction or modelled on a design used elsewhere? Secondly, same question on the 'old' and 'new' sheds - one-off's or design's that could be seen elsewhere? I ask as I'm at the beginning of a long journey with this and although I've spent a couple of weeks scouring the web for photos, understandably the photographers focussed on the loco's and not the infrastructure so without the ability to walk round the place on foot it's not straight forward to always work out what the background of the photos taken depict relative to the orientation to the site and buildings. Besides photos all I've got so far is a basic site plan depicting the layout from 1910 on but this doesn't tell me thing's like how deep track wise the 'new' shed was, the height of the coaling stage, where ash was placed and so on. I did a Google on NIne Elms model etc and given the stature of this depot was somewhat surprised to not find any links so I assumed no-one's attempted modelling it before? I'm in contact with John McIvor from the Nine Elms Locomotive Shed website and Andy from the Nine Elms Dedication Forum but any further help and advice member's can give will be much appreciated! Tks Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 You must have one helluva space to fill to get it all in, if your going to include the 2 rail entrances into the shed yard, 'Old' & 'New' shed (24 tracks in all), and the turntable by the main road gate with the infamous gatehouse. As far as I know all the 'cenotaph' style coaling towers on the SR were all one-off designs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trent Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 Tks for the reply Paul. Yes space is an issue, my plan is 00 but moving to N would make things easier from a size perspective, it's just those Hornby rebuilt Bulleid's are so nice! Initially I'm planning gate side with TT, coal tower and the 10 road 'new shed' with scenic end just past this or just past the stonemasonry works. I've been looking at the Bachmann/Hornby coaling stages to see if they would work with alot of mods but I think the Nine Elms version is just too different so will have to be made from scratch. Interesting comment you make about the gatehouse. Silly question perhaps but why was it considered infamous? Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 From my earliest days of 'spotting, 'till April 1965 when Nine Elms was downgraded to a glorified signing on point, it was always difficult to get in the shed by the main gate as they (the gate men) were very hot on deterring 'spotters, and all ('spotters) knew about it at the time. In April 1965 they were made redundant, and entry was no problem, 'till then if you wanted to gain unauthorised access you carefully went via the stone works. After the closure of my favourite shed, Willesden, in September 1965, I spent at least a couple of hours most Saturdays at Nine Elms right up to closure. And I agree with you about the Hornby rebuilds, and I would love to see a model of Nine Elms especially circa 1959/60 after the Kent coast reallocations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trent Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 Very interesting, did you take any photos? And more importantly, can you help with advice on site layout? One of the items that seems a nightmare to work out is how many inspection pits were built as they seem to be all over! Then there's understanding the process of engine's being shed of ash, i.e. where did it happen, did they just pile the ash up and how was that removed together with trying to understand the construction of the new shed - exactly how long was it and again how many inspection pits were built into it. Also currently trying to work out how the coal stage worked and what the consituant parts of its construction are. I guess some detailed plans my exist somewhere but I've got no idea where to start on that. Martin PS - looking to model the period sometime 60-67 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenway Park Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I assume you know of the Nine Elms web site which contains history and operations etc. www.svsfilm.com/nineelms/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trent Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 Tks guys, yes, as stated in my first post, I'm in contact with John McIvor who runs that website. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Very interesting, did you take any photos? And more importantly, can you help with advice on site layout? One of the items that seems a nightmare to work out is how many inspection pits were built as they seem to be all over! Then there's understanding the process of engine's being shed of ash, i.e. where did it happen, did they just pile the ash up and how was that removed together with trying to understand the construction of the new shed - exactly how long was it and again how many inspection pits were built into it. Also currently trying to work out how the coal stage worked and what the consituant parts of its construction are. I guess some detailed plans my exist somewhere but I've got no idea where to start on that. Martin PS - looking to model the period sometime 60-67 As a school kid at the time, my 'spotting forays were financed by a paper round, and most money was taken up with train fares leaving little for anything else, I had a cheap box camera that I used a few times but the quality of photography was poor, I took a few at '9E', the best of which I could scan and post later. But what I can remember, inspection pits were in the shed buildings, the 'Old' shed ( I think !) being demolished early in the 1960's. Also by the '60's, the disposal of ash became unimportant, and it was just dumped anywhere, with an open wagon being propelled round the yard (more often than not by a standard 2-6-4T) to clear the worst up if it became too much. The 'New' shed (built on the old coal stack yard) was a little shorter than the old shed by about one or two tender loco lengths, with a machine shop at the end. Many times, in the last few years, I stopped to watch, and talk, to Mr Shepherd at work in there. The coal hopper was built in a hole, and called as such, on a wet day it was entertaining to watch loaded locos leave, especially the 'spam-cans'. Another source of info to try is author/publisher Kevin Robertson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 A selection of the better (?) pics taken with a cheap box camera, please excuse the quality it was just point and click, no obvious concern about the 'railway photography rules'. Gives you an idea of the full height of the coaler, excuse the crane jib sticking out of the tender. The road in the immediate foreground is coming out of the 'Hole'. The remains of the 'Old Shed' by 1967. In the centre of the 'Old Shed' Between coaler, and turntable (1) Between coaler, and turntable (2) Outside the 'New Shed'. As for a site layout, the bottom map on the plan page on the Nine Elms web site , although not perfect, will give you a good idea. On that plan you will see the location of the second rail entrance via the tunnel from the goods depot under the 'E' in 'Main Line Viaduct'. http://svsfilm.com/nineelms/hoath2.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trent Posted September 25, 2011 Author Share Posted September 25, 2011 But what I can remember, inspection pits were in the shed buildings, the 'Old' shed ( I think !) being demolished early in the 1960's. Also by the '60's, the disposal of ash became unimportant, and it was just dumped anywhere, with an open wagon being propelled round the yard (more often than not by a standard 2-6-4T) to clear the worst up if it became too much.The 'New' shed (built on the old coal stack yard) was a little shorter than the old shed by about one or two tender loco lengths, with a machine shop at the end. Many times, in the last few years, I stopped to watch, and talk, to Mr Shepherd at work in there. The coal hopper was built in a hole, and called as such, on a wet day it was entertaining to watch loaded locos leave, especially the 'spam-cans'. Another source of info to try is author/publisher Kevin Robertson. Thanks for that reply, again, very interesting. From the photo's I have there seems to be inspection pits in nearly almost all of the roads leading up to the old shed entrance. One photo reported as being taken in September 1965 shows the old shed complete but another taken May 1966 depicts just the one 2 road section left adjoining the new shed so the majority of the old shed must have been taken down between sometime Sep 65 to May 66. Your comments on the shed length are confusing as the new shed looks to be about double the length of the old, which looks to be a couple of loco's in length. The coaling stage seems to have pits on each side of the structure so I assumed these were to aid with the removal of ash etc. I've been in contact with Kevin Robertson who couldn't really help. He advised picking up a copy of An Historical Survey of Southern Sheds which I'd already sorted via ebay. He did comment though he remembered the the coal stage was pretty impressive as a full wagon was lifted to the top electically in order to deposit its load into the hopper. Would have loved to have seen that working! Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trent Posted September 25, 2011 Author Share Posted September 25, 2011 A selection of the better (?) pics taken with a cheap box camera, please excuse the quality it was just point and click, no obvious concern about the 'railway photography rules'. Great photos that really capture the atmosphere. That coaling stage was a monster wasn't it! Got to be 100ft high or more. The 1910 plan shows 3 roads passing under it so I assume it could replenish loco's either side dependant on requirement. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 The concrete, and steel 'cenotaph' wasn't constructed 'till the 1930's, what was there before was a wagon ramp type coaler, the old concrete stumps either side of 34019 are part of the remains that were there to 1967. The newer coaling tower had two tracks thro' the 'hole', the one in the foreground in the pic of the 'hole' exit, and another further over just discernable between the two locos (34034 & 35013) in the same pic.The pic of 34019 shows it on that second road on the approach to the turntable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Ah, forgot to add, after severe damage during the Blitz, the length of the Old shed was reduced by about half, hence the discrepency in length, but the pits were still inside the original length.Calling on 45 years+ of memory, both sheds being as long as between 6 & 8( depending on class) tender locos. Watching the coaler working was indeed a spectacle. I suggested you get in touch with Kevin R., because a few years ago he published a book on the history of 9E, and might have some handy s/h titles, but forgot he's 'winding down' looking forward to his retirement, hope you mentioned my name when you contacted him . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trent Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 Aha, that makes sense now as to why there's inspection pits outside - because they were once inside! So if I assume correctly, the depth of the old shed was once the same as the new shed? John McIvor's website eluded to the previous way of filling tenders with coal and once the trays had been removed the plinth's were left behind, but thanks for clarifying, you can never have enough information. When I spoke to Kevin he didn't mention a 9E history book. I've got the book The Heyday of Nine Elms and its Locomotives together with Nine Elms by Buggleskelly Books but is there another? I'll ask Kevin again and mention your name. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I take it that you've seen this;- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P5WITlQISE or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O8LJmCDukA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trent Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 Yep, seen those. Great footage in the first one although it still doesn't give a lot away in terms of the yard. One thing that is clear though and which I've been trying to get more detail on is the lines that drops down towards the hole nearest the shed seems to have a platform looking structure next to it. I'm assuming it just looks like that as the line is dropping below ground level at this point? Kevin Robertson asked me to pass his best wishes on to you. He clarified he'd never published a book on Nine Elms so thought you were thinking of something else. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Yep, probably my excuse is old age, the memory is going - somewhere. But even so kevin is handy to know as he has contact with a few ex 9E drivers. The platform looking structure is indeed 'ground level' for the engine shed, there is another track coming in from the main-line, behind the picture of the 'Hole' , that gives entry to the shed avoiding the coaler, and the turntable, but still needs reversal. Just found this, try the 5th one down on the list. http://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/buggleskelly.php Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trent Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 Thanks Paul. Although I was born the year after Nine Elms closed, I find myself suffering memory loss which I'm sure is age related...well, that's what my wife says anyway! The book in that link I already have (along with 'The Heyday of Nine Elms and its Locomotives') and apart from small references elsewhere they're the only 2 books that seem to cover in any detail. Thanks for the track clarification. This is plan that I'm working to which shows the tracks we're talking about: Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Hi Martin Great Thread, excellent YouTube clips with nice Track Plan ... lol Look forward to seeing more photos... Keep up the good work Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshHamilton99 Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Great minds think alike. I've got the whole MPD, and SW Mainline on the plan. We should compare notes! About to start construction on the coaler, any info on that? Josh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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