Advice for an Amateur

[Matloughe]

Good Afternoon all!

 

I'd like some advice if its at all possible, I have been thinking on signalling for my layout the problem I have is I am not sure if my ideas for signalling are viable or workable for the layout plus each time I think I solve a question - it only turns into another question - so if no-one minds I'd like to ask a few questions on here

 

This is the layout - its a standard Minories plan from the Fiddleyard entrance/exit.

 

Now my construction skills aren't amazing I admit this freely - however I do want to attempt working signals linked to a frame at the front left of the board. I've been looking at the various options and was thinking of using the Ratio Signal kits for this layout purely because I've used them before so am vaguely familiar with their construction and it is something I can work on and once its done step back and say "I did that." one pivotal thing I can't remember - nor can I measure is the height of the signal from a kit which may either make or break the plan before it starts, however:

 

The first question I have is an operational one namely when shunting on the layout for example attaching or removing stock from formations I have been doing all shunt moves via the Down Line using an imaginary 'Limit of Shunt' off scene is this relatively normal practice? The layout is a steam era Southern Railway/Region if that makes much difference to the answer.

 

From this question it leads onto the starters, I know I need three one for each platform however - would the starters have a subsidiary signal beneath them to purely control shunting movements as far as the limit of shunt or would the main signal be used in this fashion? The station will have its own signal cabin controlling the station and surrounding area. Furthermore the parcels bay/pilot loco siding surely this would require a signal to control access onto the up line as well? Some sort of ringed shunt signal or would a ground disk suffice?

 

The entrance & exit to the station is covered by a road bridge - however I would like a home signal here roughly at the top of the up line arrow. Now the problem I have here is 1) Surely the overlap& sighting issues would see the signal on the 'off scene' side of the road bridge, 2) If a signal was here I am assuming it would be a three doll bracket signal reading to each platform and with a 'calling on' subsidiary signal as well for running locos onto coaching stock prior to departure and as such most likely beyond my experience to build and height limit (The layout folds in half, so I have about 10-12cm to play with for the height of the signals.)

 

I've been on the MSE website several times and looked at the products on their - I've also seen that Ratio signals are considered a little bit fragile - so I am open to suggestions. The lure of MSE means I could sneakily add in a LQ LB&SCR ringed shunt signal from the parcels road... however perhaps the next layout will feature this.

I know the far board has a loco release crossover and I am assuming that this would be protected by a disk signal facing the crossover each way - If I add these I would most likely make them non-operational for the issue of jumping control of the signals across the boards because the layout is portable. All points on the layout are manual 'finger' operated as I never considered making them remotely controlled so any signals I'd like to control from a small frame as an experiment.

 

Any views would be greatly appreciated, I have only a limited budget for modelling each month so if I am wasting my time with Ratio signals please do be honest. I have built one before on a photo plank but I sold the plank not long after completion, I don't recall any issues with it.

Thanks to all!

~ Gary

[beast66606]

The parcels bay really needs a trap point.

 

Shunting along the down line, which is the right line (i.e correct for normal running) would not be to a limit of shunt, it would probably be to a starting signal, limit of shunts are fixed reds, so no trains can pass them, they are only used for moves against the normal flow of traffic.

 

It's likely this would be the normal run forward, set back line.

 

It's also likely that each platform would have a straightforward stop signal, just a stop arm on a post/bracket/whatever you want to make!, the wrong line move would not be signalled, that also applies to the parcels bay.

 

The station home could be where you indicate you want it as there could be an outer home (440yds before it) for acceptance purposes - as it's off scene it's not an issue to assume there is, however when running to the modelled signal make sure no shunt moves/departures from the two left hand platforms takes place until the approaching train is at a stand. Your assumption about it's form is correct, you could also use a mechnical route indicator rather than 3 dolls, make this dummy and you've solved the build problem - a straight post signal, with a main and a call on arm, and the dummy route indicator.

 

A lot of companies used ground frames for engine release roads, I've not got any Southern diagrams with me to see what the LBSCR did.

 

hth

[The Stationmaster]

 

I'd like some advice if its at all possible, I have been thinking on signalling for my layout the problem I have is I am not sure if my ideas for signalling are viable or workable for the layout plus each time I think I solve a question - it only turns into another question - so if no-one minds I'd like to ask a few questions on here

 

This is the layout - its a standard Minories plan from the Fiddleyard entrance/exit.

 

Now my construction skills aren't amazing I admit this freely - however I do want to attempt working signals linked to a frame at the front left of the board. I've been looking at the various options and was thinking of using the Ratio Signal kits for this layout purely because I've used them before so am vaguely familiar with their construction and it is something I can work on and once its done step back and say "I did that." one pivotal thing I can't remember - nor can I measure is the height of the signal from a kit which may either make or break the plan before it starts, however:

 

The first question I have is an operational one namely when shunting on the layout for example attaching or removing stock from formations I have been doing all shunt moves via the Down Line using an imaginary 'Limit of Shunt' off scene is this relatively normal practice? The layout is a steam era Southern Railway/Region if that makes much difference to the answer.

 

Normally shunts are likely to be made towards the Down Line in a situation like this as it preserves some flexibility in accepting trains towards the terminus so you're spot on with using that line. BUT there is no need for any sort of 'Limit Of Shunt' sign (imaginary or otherwise because the move takes place - initially - in the right direction and an ordinary stop signal could well be there to stop the moves going to far (and serve another function as well in that it would protect entrance to the next block section).

 

From this question it leads onto the starters, I know I need three one for each platform however - would the starters have a subsidiary signal beneath them to purely control shunting movements as far as the limit of shunt or would the main signal be used in this fashion? The station will have its own signal cabin controlling the station and surrounding area. Furthermore the parcels bay/pilot loco siding surely this would require a signal to control access onto the up line as well? Some sort of ringed shunt signal or would a ground disk suffice?

Typical Southern practice would be to use co-located discs on the platform starting signals, quite likely mounted off the rail built signal post. But you need to think why you would have them and the likely reasons are -

1. For shunts to be made to the Up Line towards a Limit of Shunt board, and/or

2. For a second train to shunt onto the Down line towards one which is already standing there.

You don't need them for anything else so think about how you intend to work the station and base your decision on that (but one would be useful on the starting signal from the left hand - as seen in the pic - platform to go towards a Limi of Shunt so that a train can shunt out of that platform while a train is departing from either of the others.

 

The entrance & exit to the station is covered by a road bridge - however I would like a home signal here roughly at the top of the up line arrow. Now the problem I have here is 1) Surely the overlap& sighting issues would see the signal on the 'off scene' side of the road bridge, 2) If a signal was here I am assuming it would be a three doll bracket signal reading to each platform and with a 'calling on' subsidiary signal as well for running locos onto coaching stock prior to departure and as such most likely beyond my experience to build and height limit (The layout folds in half, so I have about 10-12cm to play with for the height of the signals.)

 

The Home Signal would have to be no closer to the crossover than being level with the toes of the trailing point in the Down Line to ensure correct clearance but in that position it would be no use for train acceptance if a train was passing through that trailing crossover - so there would most likely be an Outer Home 440yds in rear of it - i.e 17ft 6" away in 4mm scale so well and truly off scene and probably beyond your fiddle yard.

You could legitimately - as you've been thinking - place your Home Signal in rear of the bridge which would put it off scene and solve two problems - firstly you wouldn't have to build it and secondly it would give you more actual flexibility in working the layout prototypically or prototypically to a timetable. BTW a 3 doll bracket is possible but I would consider a signal with a route indicator far more likely in the situation you are portraying - so just one stop arm, a Calling On arm, and a big round topped 'box'.

 

 

I've been on the MSE website several times and looked at the products on their - I've also seen that Ratio signals are considered a little bit fragile - so I am open to suggestions. The lure of MSE means I could sneakily add in a LQ LB&SCR ringed shunt signal from the parcels road... however perhaps the next layout will feature this.

Nothing like a Pre-Group signal to create a sense of place and add a touch of class!

 

I know the far board has a loco release crossover and I am assuming that this would be protected by a disk signal facing the crossover each way - If I add these I would most likely make them non-operational for the issue of jumping control of the signals across the boards because the layout is portable. All points on the layout are manual 'finger' operated as I never considered making them remotely controlled so any signals I'd like to control from a small frame as an experiment.

Just as likely to be worked by a 3 lever ground frame and therefore no signals - simples

[burgundy]

For Brighton signals, as well as those available from MSE, you might want to have a look at those from EBM at

http://www.mjwsjw.co.uk/page26.html

Best wishes

Eric

[Matloughe]

Thanks for your input,

 

Its nice to know I was roughly on the right track for signalling (if you'll pardon the pun) - even if I was over engineering the solution a little.

 

For the Parcels Bay/Station Pilot siding yes I need a trap point - there was a reason I didn't have one but I honestly can't remember what it was now, it was either cost or space to fit it in because I know that particular line is Set-Track whilst the rest is Streamline flexi. Thanks for the tip on the loco-release crossover its one potential issue that I don't have to worry about too much. I think I am going to investigate the Ratio Kits for the Starters, I have an idea to 'convert' the Home & Distant kit by re-profiling the Distant Arm into a subsidiary signal which could grace the end of the left most platform.

 

I just wonder what I've let myself in with by setting this challenge. At least it'll be good fun in the end.

Thanks to all! I shall be drooling over LBSC LQ Signals in the meantime.

 

~ Gary

[Flying Pig]

Typical Southern practice would be to use co-located discs on the platform starting signals, quite likely mounted off the rail built signal post. But you need to think why you would have them and the likely reasons are -

1. For shunts to be made to the Up Line towards a Limit of Shunt board, and/or

2. For a second train to shunt onto the Down line towards one which is already standing there.

You don't need them for anything else so think about how you intend to work the station and base your decision on that (but one would be useful on the starting signal from the left hand - as seen in the pic - platform to go towards a Limi of Shunt so that a train can shunt out of that platform while a train is departing from either of the others.

Only possible during departures from the rightmost platform as departures from the middle platform block the throat. Perhaps signal shunts to the Up Line from left and middle platforms?