GWR Signals

[rickgwr]

Following on from the many similar requests, and extremely helpful responses -

 

I have used a part of a Peco Planbook plan to create my layout. It is taken from the centre pages of the book, which shows a large layout, but I have only used the middle section.

 

 

The layout is set in the later stages of WWII, and is a quite busy setting somewhere between Birmingham and London - totally fictitious though. Traffic consists of local suburban, branch line, and passing express passenger services, passing both up and down. There is a good deal of freight - coal etc making its way south, and also some WD type transport taking tanks and other "materiel" to the south coast, and naturally plenty of empty stock going north again. For my purposes north, or down, is to the right as you look at the layout.

 

I accept that (as The Stationmaster quite properly points out) the Plan is for a "Model Railway" not for a "model of a railway", and as such may not be accurate compared to the real thing. Nevertheless, I would like to add signals which are as representative as possible of common practices - but like so many other "amateurs" am easily confused by the subject!

 

Here's hoping you stalwarts can make something of it, and suggest which signals might go where!

 

Rick

[The Stationmaster]

Actually Rick it's not too bad as a 'model of a railway' with the biggest shortcoming being the (as usual) lack of trap points and sidings coming off running lines instead of spreading out from a single running line connection; a few minor changes could improve that no end. If the plan above represents what you are actually modelling the first thing you need to do is move the signalbox (marked as 'SC') to the end of the station where all the pointwork is.

 

Now a few questions - the line at the bottom 'south' of the island platform is presumably a branch and presumably has passenger trains? And equally I presume you are leaving the good shed where it is drawn?

The other question concerns the line on the 'north' side of the further platform - is it a passenger line or a goods line and is it a through line or now just a siding? And are you going to keep the facing entrance to those two long sidings or make them trail off that line?

 

Once we know the answers I can do a suitable signalling sketch although because of the non-prototypical elements I've mentioned there will be one or two oddities in the signalling (the worst things is having the siding by the goods shed coming separately off a running line in a facing direction - ugh!!)

 

Going off at a slight tangent the strange thing about layout plans like this is that they could very easily be made much more prototypical with very few changes and a bit of applied 'railway sense' (although trap points would still be omitted I think - that might be going a bit too far for 'simple' layouts or beginners). I really can't see the point of not getting minor things like this drawn correctly in plans which are otherwise very useful for introducing folk to layout planning and construction.

[rickgwr]

Thank you so far Mike.

The signalbox can indeed can go at the "correct" end.

You are right about the branch line (bottom 'south'), though I thought it could additionally handle specialist goods traffic too - part of the massive movement of war goods to the south coast ready for the invasion! Maybe assume there is an armaments factory or some such in that direction...

The other line ('north' side) is indeed a through line, and I'm using it for both goods and passenger traffic at the moment. Sort of dependent on what's at rest on the main platform lines, as there isn't a relief road (is that the correct term?).

Space restrictions mean I can't connect the sidings other than in the plan - the actual layout is slightly offset from the plan to fit available space.

Now - at the risk of having scorn directed at my ignorance, but pleading "I like it" as an excuse, I'll reveal that the Goods Shed has been redesignated the Engine Shed, and the Cattle Dock is now the Goods sidings. The Engine Shed is instead a secure military facility occupied by a Transport Corps facility, engaged in repairing military vehicles including tanks. It is fenced and gated.

The other non-designated siding I have kept as a carriage siding.

All the through lines and branch line actually lead to my "fiddle yards" where I can either run trains round again or turn them to return in the opposite direction, storing them in the meantime.

 

I do hope I am making some sense! As ever there is an element of "should have thought of the signalling before building the layout" - but I am where I am! And very grateful too for all input. (I have had tremendous help too from MERG members, as my knowledge of electronics is at least as bad as it is of operational railways!)

 

Rick.

[rovex]

I hope you don't mind but I've redrawn your plan diagrammatically, having hopefully understood your comments from your last post.

 

 

I have made one minor amendment to the plan which hopefully takes account of Stationmasters comment about the old goods shed (now engine shed) being accessed directly off the branchline. In this drawing access is from the loop rather than the branch line - If I'm correct that would deal with Stationmasters concerns about this.

 

I don't know the planbook you refer to so I don't know if there is another crossover shown of the other side of the station.

 

 

This second plan shows the sidings arranged the other way round to deal with Stationmasters comments about a facing point into the good yard. I've swapped the goods sidings and private sidings around. I've probably made more errors in doing so though so don't take this as gospel until those who are in the know have commented.

 

I obviously don't know your space constraints but might be worth seeing if you could work with this.

[The Stationmaster]

Thank you so far Mike.

The signalbox can indeed can go at the "correct" end.

You are right about the branch line (bottom 'south'), though I thought it could additionally handle specialist goods traffic too - part of the massive movement of war goods to the south coast ready for the invasion! Maybe assume there is an armaments factory or some such in that direction...

The other line ('north' side) is indeed a through line, and I'm using it for both goods and passenger traffic at the moment. Sort of dependent on what's at rest on the main platform lines, as there isn't a relief road (is that the correct term?).

Space restrictions mean I can't connect the sidings other than in the plan - the actual layout is slightly offset from the plan to fit available space.

Now - at the risk of having scorn directed at my ignorance, but pleading "I like it" as an excuse, I'll reveal that the Goods Shed has been redesignated the Engine Shed, and the Cattle Dock is now the Goods sidings. The Engine Shed is instead a secure military facility occupied by a Transport Corps facility, engaged in repairing military vehicles including tanks. It is fenced and gated.

The other non-designated siding I have kept as a carriage siding.

All the through lines and branch line actually lead to my "fiddle yards" where I can either run trains round again or turn them to return in the opposite direction, storing them in the meantime.

 

I do hope I am making some sense! As ever there is an element of "should have thought of the signalling before building the layout" - but I am where I am! And very grateful too for all input. (I have had tremendous help too from MERG members, as my knowledge of electronics is at least as bad as it is of operational railways!)

 

Rick.

 

No problems there Rick although Rovex has sketched something much nearer the ideal track layout if you can make any alterations. The branch and the second through line are both ok as you describe them so can you make even minor alterations or is the trackwork already set in stone (or pva)?

[rickgwr]

Thanks to you both for the helpful advice so far. Rovex's first plan is the one we will have to run with as I can't (too much upheaval) do the changes to get me to plan 2 (as you surmised, everything's in and ballasted!). Though I am going to see about adjusting the Engine shed points to conform better to prototype.

There is another crossover, but it's off the main layout - to the left as you're looking at the plan - which allows me to bring trains frrom the fiddle yard into the branch platform.

Can we run with this?

 

Rick.

[RJS1977]

I think the revised location of the loco shed is better - if it's primarily for the branch locos, it makes sense for it to be on the branch side of the station. Likewise, having the goods sidings all on the same side makes the yard much more workable.

 

As regards signalling, while I think I can see what needs doing, I do have a couple of further questions:

 

1) Are the through platforms to be signalled for bi-directional working, or just one for up working and one for down (with the top platform being signalled bi-directionally for access to the yard)?

 

2) Will locos be routinely uncoupled from trains in the station and run to/from the shed, or will most main line loco changes take place in the fiddle yard?

 

3) Is the loop on the branch bay purely a run-round loop, or is it also intended to be used for a goods train to pass a passenger train?

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks to you both for the helpful advice so far. Rovex's first plan is the one we will have to run with as I can't (too much upheaval) do the changes to get me to plan 2 (as you surmised, everything's in and ballasted!). Though I am going to see about adjusting the Engine shed points to conform better to prototype.

There is another crossover, but it's off the main layout - to the left as you're looking at the plan - which allows me to bring trains frrom the fiddle yard into the branch platform.

Can we run with this?

Rick.

 

Right - fairly simple step to Rovex's first variant.

 

The other crossover and the resultant 'bang road' working really is a no-no for the period you are modelling - not too bad for late 1960s and quite ok early 1970s onwards buta real sore thumb for a layout prior to then - especially a Western layout (the layout thread 'somewhrere in Devon' shows the proper way to do it for the Western.

 

As the facing crossover is off scene I think the simplest step is to just forget it for running branch trains in the wrong direction.

[rickgwr]

Right then - future plan will be to adjust the layout to better conform, and do away with the apparent 'bang road working' to get down-trains into the branch platform (hope I'm using the right terminology!). But for now can we go with Mike's 'simplest step'?

I have a query - in pre-nationalisation GWR working (1940s), would a train be able to use a spare through road to pass a stationary train in the station, even though this would mean it running for a short distance in the 'wrong' direction? If this is a 'no-no' then I'll not do it through the main station. Otherwise I have to look to signalling for working both ways I presume (RJS's first point), and I guess must do for the 'top' platform. And, thinking about it, if a local service were to terminate at the station, using for instance a Railcar, would it have been in order for it to set off back the way it came, and cross over to the correct road at a suitable point, or must it move forward past a crossover and then reverse onto the correct road?

As for RJS point 2 - I haven't given that much thought, but maybe I should - in which case I would expect there to be occasional changes of locos (branch and other 'local' traffic maybe?), for interest sake.

And point 3 - the latter, i.e. I'd like occasional goods trains to be using the branch line.

 

Hope we're getting somewhere (and that you're all forgiving my ignorance, and accepting I am keen to learn!).

 

Rick.

[The Stationmaster]

Right then - future plan will be to adjust the layout to better conform, and do away with the apparent 'bang road working' to get down-trains into the branch platform (hope I'm using the right terminology!). But for now can we go with Mike's 'simplest step'?

I have a query - in pre-nationalisation GWR working (1940s), would a train be able to use a spare through road to pass a stationary train in the station, even though this would mean it running for a short distance in the 'wrong' direction? If this is a 'no-no' then I'll not do it through the main station. Otherwise I have to look to signalling for working both ways I presume (RJS's first point), and I guess must do for the 'top' platform. And, thinking about it, if a local service were to terminate at the station, using for instance a Railcar, would it have been in order for it to set off back the way it came, and cross over to the correct road at a suitable point, or must it move forward past a crossover and then reverse onto the correct road?

As for RJS point 2 - I haven't given that much thought, but maybe I should - in which case I would expect there to be occasional changes of locos (branch and other 'local' traffic maybe?), for interest sake.

And point 3 - the latter, i.e. I'd like occasional goods trains to be using the branch line.

Hope we're getting somewhere (and that you're all forgiving my ignorance, and accepting I am keen to learn!).

Rick.

Making headway and hopefully you're learning - that's what this is all about and it's the best way; just keep asking questions .

1. I think going for the 'simplest step' is a good starting point on this one (you'll find out why some of the other things have been suggested when you start operating it if the signalling is correct - you very quickly learn what a track layout won't let you do, it's called 'gaining experience'!!).

2. At a station of this (small) size bi-directional working would have been extremely un usual in the 1940s and running line facing crossovers (between lines going in opposite directions) on the Western were a child of the mid-late 1960s, very unusual before then. Effectively you have a loop in one direction to allow 'overtaking' (in itself only really something which became a lot more common for wartime traffic levels in other than the busiest sections of route) and nothing in the other direction - trains just had to take their place in the queue, and they did.

3. As far as reversing a railcar is concerned the situation could be either of those you suggest. If it takes place regularly hopefully the signalling would have been altered, or installed, to allow the car to leave from the platform and cross back through the crossover but if this pattern of working post-dated the signalling there might not have been time or money to alter the signalling and it would have to shunt to the 'correct' line in order to depart as a passenger train. Examples of both could be found so either is right but it would be wrong to start back from the arrival platform as a passenger train if it was not correctly signalled (even in wartime).

4. As far as loco changes are concerned you haven't got much scope in the track layout - it is possible on branch trains of course and it is feasible on trains on the mainline going from west to east (right to left) but that's your lot - the track layout needed to do it simply doesn't exist in the opposite direction except for changing in an emergency at the Home Signal.

[rickgwr]

Gotcha! What a lot to learn! My guess is that when time eventually permits I shall do a reworking of the layout.

Meanwhile is it possible to have some suggestions for signals - albeit the result may be anathema to purists!

 

Rick.

[The Stationmaster]

Gotcha! What a lot to learn! My guess is that when time eventually permits I shall do a reworking of the layout.

Meanwhile is it possible to have some suggestions for signals - albeit the result may be anathema to purists!

 

Rick.

 

No problem Rick - I'll knock one up (probably in the morning now) on the basis of Rovex's first variant which is a simple alteration of what was there originally but immediately looks a lot better and i will allow for a passenger train to reverse and head back east from the 'north' platform. The signalling will all be correct and shouldn't upset any purists whatsoever (except possibly the ones who don't know what they're talking about?) even though it will include one slightly unusual (but wholly prototypical) feature which is a consequence of a less than realistic track layout. No trap points of course - can't be helped.

[rickgwr]

The layout now looks like this:

 

 

If someone could have a go at "signalling" it for me i'd be really chuffed!

 

Rick

[The Stationmaster]

Why a scissors crossover - for access to the branch?

[rickgwr]

yes! It isn't yet fastened down yet though. I was trying to get a tad closer to prototype, i.e. not have bang road working.

[The Stationmaster]

yes! It isn't yet fastened down yet though. I was trying to get a tad closer to prototype, i.e. not have bang road working.

Alas it really goes the other way - away from the prototype - by introducing a sort of complexity not normally found at stations of this size. A quick bit of (mental) signal sketching gives a 5 doll bracket approaching the scissors from the left end while also introducing an unwanted facing crossover for trains approaching from the right. Fair enough in the approach at low speed to a terminus but definitely very unusual for a smaller 'wayside' station in the period you are modelling.

 

However if you are keeping the curvature at the ends of the layout as it was on the original plan you don't have much choice if you want to have trains make a running movement coming in from the left and going towards the branch. Ideally the easiest way out of it is to use a single slip where the branch platform/loop line joins the main line as this would give a trailing connection into the main line (as per original pointwork) while not creating a facing connection between the main lines and such a formation was not at all unusual at branch junctions of this sort (although the rest of the scissors crossover would be). There is a further alternative - using a diamond instead of a slip and with a separate connection for trains coming off the branch in the opposite direction but it would take far more space although it would, I think, look even better.

 

But you can readily revert to Rule 1 (it's my railway) and you have already said that you are happy (?) to accept some 'model railway' (as opposed to 'model of a railway') features and it can be signalled albeit looking more than a tad excessive for this type of location. The signalling otherwise is relatively straightforward and will not look too bad - at a glance the only 'sore thumb' will be the 5 doll bracket - this (pic below) gives a vague impression of what it would look like although the dolls are not arranged exactly as they would be in your case as the one at extreme left would be at extreme right for you and there would be no lower arm distants or Calling On arms on your signal

 

[rickgwr]

 

ok - if I do the latter will it look like this ('cause I can do it)?

[The Stationmaster]

 

ok - if I do the latter will it look like this ('cause I can do it)?

 

That's much better if you can do (very much better in fact) although ideally - nothing like pushing a bit further every time - if you could move the trailing crossover so you no longer have scissors it would be better still; but if you can't manage that don't worry too much as it's not the end of the world.

[RJS1977]

Mike - just out of interest, where is/was the signal in the picture you just posted? Is it the east end of Carmarthen by any chance?

[The Stationmaster]

Mike - just out of interest, where is/was the signal in the picture you just posted? Is it the east end of Carmarthen by any chance?

Exeter West.

[rickgwr]

Mike - you're right, I just don't have enough space to do any better, but I am encouraged that I have got this far!

 

 

I hope this plan now looks acceptable!

 

Rick

[rickgwr]

 

And just to see whether I have learnt anything at all, does the gantry now look like this?

[The Stationmaster]

 

And just to see whether I have learnt anything at all, does the gantry now look like this?

 

Right the layout is now 'not too bad' so we'll go with it as it now stands - great progress injecting a bit of prototypicality into something like that I reckon and it will be better to work.

 

Now your signal - a very good start but one small error and perhaps one omission. The error is that the arm reading to the Goods Siding should be the shorter (3ft long) variety - look at the difference in size of arms on the pic I posted above, it should also be at a lower elevation than the arm reading to the branch . The possible omission is not having an arm (another short one) at extreme right to read to what was at one time being talked of as a possible loop, and still - I think - sensible to signal it as a route into the loop for engines going to shed - at same elevation as the arm reading to the Goods siding.

 

That's the difficult one out of the way - are you going to have a go at any more now you're getting into the swing of things. Having a good read through this thread might be useful to get you underway - some of it is very specifically GWR/WR and if you get far enough into it I have explained lots of basic stuff as well http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/48504-gwr-signals-and-where-they-go/

[rickgwr]

Mike. (I thought I had posted a reply to your last, but it's not here!)

Thanks for everything so far. I had read the "where they go" thread before I started this one. It still left me with lots of questions, some of which I now see the answers to.

I will re-read everything including the literature I have, and then maybe have a first pass at some signals - though I've got a funny feeling I'm still going to need yours and the other members help!

Rick

[rickgwr]

So... should the gantry at the down approach look like one of these?