HeavyDuty Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I'm looking for prototype and model inspiration for typical small coal yards as they would have appeared in the early 1960s. My inspiration has been what little I can find about White Swan Yard in Great Yarmouth, but I'd like to broaden my search a bit. I've seen hints that there may have been a large thread about this topic on the last incarnation of RMweb, but I've had no luck finding it. I'm trying to come up with a plausible concept for a small 7mm layout. Would it have been likely or possible for two or three small coal merchants to be using the same small coal yard at the same time? (I'm assuming they would have separate bins and facilities.) Also, I believe I've seen photos of coal merchants bagging coal from wagons at a cobble surfaced yard, possibly a former goods yard now being used for household coal - would this have been common? Any pointers to prototype or model threads would be a great help! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vin Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Hi heavy duty, Scarborough welbeck coal yard is a good prototype as it on curve and the yard site makes a good corner back drop. Regards Vin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted October 7, 2012 Author Share Posted October 7, 2012 Thank you, Vin - searching for info now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I think you may find this old thread of interest http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13253 although I have an aversion to the use of the word "staithes" to describe the coal bins or pens, as staithes are completely differnet animals! There are four pages of replies, so I suggest having a good read to sift out the wheat from the chaff, and there are some excellent photos both within the text and supplied with external links. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 It was quite usual for several coal merchants to use the same yard; also for them to have no facilities apart from some storage bins for different grades of coal. 'Offices' would quite often be the merchant's wife answering the 'phone at home; this was certainly the case with Mr Nurse, our coal merchant in Llanelli. In most towns and villages, coal and general goods would have been dealt with in the same yard; the coal traffic would be handled on a track where the wagons could stand for some time, and where the dust/slurry wouldn't get over things that needed to be kept relatively clean. One thing that has cropped up in a thread on freight on the 'Far North' line on here in recent days is a photo of a couple of coal wagons standing against a loading dock to be unloaded. This was so a JCB 'Backhoe' could be used to unload them into a tipper truck for transport to the coal merchant's premises- JCB's would have problems reaching inside a wagon from ground level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Something I've wondered about is how the door on a loaded 16- or even 21-tonner is/was safely opened... There must be several tons of force (mixing units but you know what I mean...) on the door and when the securing bolts/lugs are knocked back, the door could open with some violence, not to mention spilling a ton or two of coal. Thanks, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Something I've wondered about is how the door on a loaded 16- or even 21-tonner is/was safely opened... There must be several tons of force (mixing units but you know what I mean...) on the door and when the securing bolts/lugs are knocked back, the door could open with some violence, not to mention spilling a ton or two of coal. Thanks, Bill A lot of merchants would make a stack of full bags, or empty pallets in front of the door, on which to rest the door when it opened. The opening technique would be to stand to the side, and thump the end of the cotter pins- no-one would stand in front of the door, at least not twice.. Similar techniques were used to open containers of pre-packed butter that had crossed the Irish Sea in mid-winter... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 Nick, that's exactly the kind of thread I was looking for - it will make good reading tonight after work. Thank you! Brian - by facilities I was thinking more a small shed for tools and such. I'll track down the Far North thread. Was there much regional variation in these? I'm looking to model something in East Anglia. I have read that drops were common in the Northeast, but that's out of my area of interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Dread Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 You may wish to consider the bulk method of coal delivery. Here on my last layout "Brockley Green SE4", the Q1 has just arrived with five loaded 21T hopper wagons. It will exchange them for the five empty wagons in the other road. Wagons are discharged through their bottom doors and the coal is carried away by a conveyor belt system to an adjacent hopper for loading into road vehicles. In practice, once the empty wagons have returned to the fiddle yard on the other side of the backsceen, a sliding door is opened at the rear of the shed. Then the plastic coal covered loads are removed with a forked tool which fits into a couple of holes drilled into the plastic. The wagons are deemed to be moved along by a rope and capstan system. The loads are dropped into the just arrived empty wagons, the loco and brake van change ends and the process starts all over again. As always I hope this helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Nick, that's exactly the kind of thread I was looking for - it will make good reading tonight after work. Thank you! Brian - by facilities I was thinking more a small shed for tools and such. I'll track down the Far North thread. Was there much regional variation in these? I'm looking to model something in East Anglia. I have read that drops were common in the Northeast, but that's out of my area of interest. The coal merchant would possibly only have some scales (often, the set on the lorry would suffice), a couple of shovels, and a sledgehammer; it's not a trade that needs a lot of technology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Brian, I don't know if you have seen this? http://www.gauge0guild.com/Small_layouts_1-02.pdf Page 20 - 1st item on page,which might be what you want and the old OO Airfix coal office is very generic http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/index.php?component=content&topicid=13751&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20 about the 4th post down Best Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanuts Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 i have a thread on the coal concentration depot at chadderton near oldham look up chadderton ccd Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chubber Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I remember coal being bagged-up by a merchant at North Camp station in the late 50s, one method was to park the lorry [a Bedford IIRC] next to the wagon, the waggon side door opened when loads of coal and dust would cascade onto the flat bed of the lorry where two men would use huge shovels and a pair of scales to bag up. Then the door was lifted, the lorry moved up a bit and more coal pushed out onto the lorry until no more room was left to do that. The rest was shovelled out onto the ground and bagged up. They included a folded sack on the scale weight platform. The coal didn't seem to cascade out in an endless stream, it had to be 'helped' out. I remember they used to supply coal to my school. This link to Bodmans might help you.... http://www.lambournvalleyrailway.co.uk/pages/Bodmans/bodmans.htm Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chubber Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Brian, I don't know if you have seen this? http://www.gauge0gui...ayouts_1-02.pdf Page 20 - 1st item on page,which might be what you want and the old OO Airfix coal office is very generic http://airfixtribute...start=20��about the 4th post down Best Jack Wow! What a link, Jack, that's this evening's reading sorted, pity I didn't have it before Strictly Come Dancing was foisted on be this weekend by SWMBO and her visiting Deputy SWMBO! Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Glad to have rescued your evening Doug - the Book 1 (on the net) is now out of print - but there is a book 2 (Large A3 format with card cover), which is available from the O Gauge Guild (and possibly Amazon), if you want more reading! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pobrien Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Two photos of the small coal yard at Lawrence Hill, Bristolhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/5132591414/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/5400478649/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 You may wish to consider the bulk method of coal delivery. Here on my last layout "Brockley Green SE4", the Q1 has just arrived with five loaded 21T hopper wagons. It will exchange them for the five empty wagons in the other road. Wagons are discharged through their bottom doors and the coal is carried away by a conveyor belt system to an adjacent hopper for loading into road vehicles. In practice, once the empty wagons have returned to the fiddle yard on the other side of the backsceen, a sliding door is opened at the rear of the shed. Then the plastic coal covered loads are removed with a forked tool which fits into a couple of holes drilled into the plastic. The wagons are deemed to be moved along by a rope and capstan system. The loads are dropped into the just arrived empty wagons, the loco and brake van change ends and the process starts all over again. As always I hope this helps. A fascinating arrangement, Your Honor - sadly my available space is too tight for something that complex. Gorgeous modeling! Brian, I don't know if you have seen this? http://www.gauge0gui...ayouts_1-02.pdf Page 20 - 1st item on page,which might be what you want and the old OO Airfix coal office is very generic http://airfixtribute...start=20��about the 4th post down Best Jack Jack, was that directed at me? If yes, that's the trackplan that set this all in motion - the description led to searching out more information on White Swan, which led to an appreciation of things GER in general, quite a change from my past interests. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 Thank you all for the input - I'm busy scouring through my few UK books looking for information. The chase is sometimes the best part! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted October 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2012 coal merchant's yard, in part of the goods yard at kirkcaldy: http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/images/l/595609/ the coal merchant was the one which i presume had the house and garage on bennochy road (up to the right of this picture, on the main road which went over the railway on a bridge. modern google streetview here: http://goo.gl/maps/IjJ9m the house is obviously still there, although i wonder if it was just used as offices etc in later days of the merchant - i remember it having stickers in the windows for 'coalite' and such! the modern bungalow on the left is on the site of the 'garage' - had black, foldy wooden doors on the front with a name painted above, certainly big enough for a flat-bed lorry. to the right of the old house was a road access to the down goods yard, now a pathway to the car parks which cover the whole former goods yard area. this access road can be seen in the old pic, sloping down from right to left in front of the factory. both the loading bank and track-level areas would have been reached using this road, as well as access off to the left, near the station Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 9, 2012 A few years before our branch lost its freight a coal merchant set himself up at one of the intermediate stations, not long after another set himself up at the other intermediate station. The second one did bring in an old garden shed as his office, the first had absolutely nothing on site except his lorry - with scales and sacks - plus he built a few cells to store coal - the other just stacked it in the yard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingsignalman Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Something I've wondered about is how the door on a loaded 16- or even 21-tonner is/was safely opened... There must be several tons of force (mixing units but you know what I mean...) on the door and when the securing bolts/lugs are knocked back, the door could open with some violence, not to mention spilling a ton or two of coal. Thanks, Bill I remember being told by a Shunter that they used shunting poles to lift the catches on 16t wagons. The Shunter was at pains to make sure I understood that the end of the shunting pole should be between your body and your arm so that the force of the door opening wouldn't knock you flying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
28XX Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Something I've wondered about is how the door on a loaded 16- or even 21-tonner is/was safely opened... There must be several tons of force (mixing units but you know what I mean...) on the door and when the securing bolts/lugs are knocked back, the door could open with some violence, not to mention spilling a ton or two of coal. Thanks, Bill I volunteered on the Talyllyn in the early '70's. They had coal delivered by standard gauge rail to Wharf station. It was just as you imagine. To get the door open we used a hammer, standing as far to one side as we could till eventually the door slammed down onto the wharf, burying us ankle deep at least in coal. We then spent the rest of the day shoveling it onto an electric conveyor / elevator to make a nice tidy pile. There was a considerable gap between the wagon and the wharf so once the wagon was empty we went down onto the BR track to clear the wheels, then moved the wagon with a pinch bar before shoveling the spilled coal up onto the wharf. 'Elf n Safety bods note: * Aged 13 * No track side training * No HiViz * No toetectors * 240v electric supply to elevator via two extension leads across a rainy yard without an RCD. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyDuty Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 My copy of "Diesels in East Anglia" arrived Tuesday, and it shows White Swan with stacks of filled coal sacks. Good information! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenng Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 have a look at this web site. http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw001878 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
90171 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Obviously there must be regional variations on the method of coal delivery. In the 1970's and 1980's my work took me to most railway depots in Yorkshire, and almost without exception, coal cells or drops were the norm. Walls of brick or stone divided spaces equal to a wagon length on the track spanning them, and coal was dropped from the wagons' bottom discharge doors. Sometimes the track was only 8 feet above the adjacent yard and then the coal would drop to a heap at ground level. A more sophisticated type of coal cell could be used where a greater difference in level could be engineered. Here coal was dropped into a hopper, and from the hopper small chutes could be used to bag the coal directly by gravity. The photo shows this hopper type in a model I made in the 1980s, based on a photo of some coal drops west of Huddersfield -- perhaps Longwood or Golcar. I have often thought that coal cells are under-represented in railway modelling; possibly because they were rarely in public view, and so less known about. However domestic coal delivery was hugely important. Prior to the 1970's, of course, almost all houses were heated by domestic coal, not to mention workplaces, hospitals etc. Small villages in the Moors had 4 or 6 coal cells. A small town such as Market Weighton in East Yorkshire had 12. Large towns such as York had dozens of cells. Of course the construction of the coal cells harks back to a slightly earlier time when most places were lit by gas and domestic electricity had yet to be installed - hence there were not too many power stations.. In the 1930s, the LMS alone hauled 70 million tons of coal and coke per year, and much of this must have been for the domestic market. Clearly in a sizeable yard, more than one coal merchant would be active, and I well remember coal cells being let to merchants indiviually. However I don't know whether they bought coal by the wagon (ie it was then discharged to 'their" cell) or whether coal was weighed out as the merchant left the Yard across a weighbridge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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