J83 LNER/BR branch line operations?

[GraemeR BR (WR)]

Dear all,

I have been researching J83 operations post-1945 up to their eventual demise in 1962. I have found station pilot duties and freight yard shunting, but am keen to find a branch line that they "regularly" operated. If anyone has a photo of them in action that would be great.

 

As a follow-up to this I'm also looking at suitable rolling stock for this branch line. Am I correct that LNER teak stock from the mainline would have been cascaded down to the branches in the 1950s?

Many thanks for any help you can give me with this.

[GraemeR BR (WR)]

Looking into the North Clyde lines, which apparently were frequently operated by tank engines. Still haven't found that elusive first photograph though.

[GraemeR BR (WR)]

Possible first photograph on:

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/p/penicuik/index.shtml

The photo of Penicuik station by A.G.Ellis shows an 0-6-0 tank engine running around its coaches before making the return journey to Edinburgh Waverley. Could it be a J83?

Its dated July 1950.

[Armchair Modeller]

Looking at the size of the boiler and chimney, to me it is far more likely to be a C15 or C16.

 

I get the impression that only a few J83s were equipped for use in passenger trains and were generally used for station pilot and empty carriage duties. If so, they would only ever be used in an emergency for anything like a branch passenger train.

[GraemeR BR (WR)]

Looking at the size of the boiler and chimney, to me it is far more likely to be a C15 or C16.

 

I get the impression that only a few J83s were equipped for use in passenger trains and were generally used for station pilot and empty carriage duties. If so, they would only ever be used in an emergency for anything like a branch passenger train.

Many thanks Armchair Modeller, and yes you may well be right - I think it was wishful thinking on my part. I fell into the trap of making the evidence fit my required scenario. Still hoping a regular-ish working might exist. Fingers crossed.

[Graham R]

Still hoping a regular-ish working might exist..

 

I have a vague recollection of seeing a photo of Dundee's green-liveried J83 passenger pilot at St Andrews in early BR days ... I don't have time to search it out right now but maybe it jogs someone else's memory?

[Graham R]

I have a vague recollection of seeing a photo of Dundee's green-liveried J83 passenger pilot at St Andrews in early BR days ... I don't have time to search it out right now but maybe it jogs someone else's memory?

 

Of course having started the hare runing in my own head, I just had to go and check... Hadjucki/Jodeluk/Simpson's "The St Andrew Railway" (Oakwood) has a very detailed list of classes and individual locos known to have been seen at St Andrews, and they don't mention a J83 in the post-war period (or at all). So my memory is faulty

 

However, the RCTS Green Bible 8B has better news: "In the early 1940s, St. Margaret's employed No 9830 on the North Leith branch passenger service where it replaced a Sentinel steam railcar. About this time No 9831, by then shedded at Haymarket, appeared on passenger trains on the Corstorphine branch. The hardest turn of the day on this line was the 8-30am from Corstorphine, and this rain wa a sight to behold as it came past Haymarket shed, ten or twelve main line bogie coaches packed with passengers, with a bunker-first J83 sending up an enormous column of smoke and steam and emitting a loud continuous roar. Even in British Railways days, Haymarket often used a J83 on Corstorphine passenger turns, but not on the 8-30am which by then was normally Pacific-hauled."

 

cheers

Graham

[GraemeR BR (WR)]

Of course having started the hare runing in my own head, I just had to go and check... Hadjucki/Jodeluk/Simpson's "The St Andrew Railway" (Oakwood) has a very detailed list of classes and individual locos known to have been seen at St Andrews, and they don't mention a J83 in the post-war period (or at all). So my memory is faulty

 

However, the RCTS Green Bible 8B has better news: "In the early 1940s, St. Margaret's employed No 9830 on the North Leith branch passenger service where it replaced a Sentinel steam railcar. About this time No 9831, by then shedded at Haymarket, appeared on passenger trains on the Corstorphine branch. The hardest turn of the day on this line was the 8-30am from Corstorphine, and this rain wa a sight to behold as it came past Haymarket shed, ten or twelve main line bogie coaches packed with passengers, with a bunker-first J83 sending up an enormous column of smoke and steam and emitting a loud continuous roar. Even in British Railways days, Haymarket often used a J83 on Corstorphine passenger turns, but not on the 8-30am which by then was normally Pacific-hauled."

 

cheers

Graham

From one Graeme R to another Graham R, a huge thank you for taking the time to research that. I'll look into the branch lines you mention, and see if I can find a photo or two. The best news (which I didn't expect to find) is that the branch passenger operations continue into BR days. It just so happens that the J83 I'm detailing at the moment is in early BR green livery. Hurrah, and thanks again. Have a lovely Christmas

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The fact is, that among the RTR models that are available for the LNER, there is not one that is a widely dispersed type used routinely on branchline duties. The nearest candidate is the N2, regularly employed on the KX area branch lines; and even there the N7 was preferred for its lower axle loading.  A J83 roaring along with ten or more corridor coaches to Corstorphine (intriguing name that always sounds more like a cough mixture than a town - derivation?) is hardly 'classic' steam branch line operation, even though it offers a welcome chance to use one for branch line turns.

 

I am a little suprised at Hornby; having knocked out half a dozen quite lovely LNER non-gangwayed coaches haven't bethought themselves of something small and suitable to potter around with two or three in some rural backwater. The J67 to 69 family look ideal candidates to me given their wide dispersion, variety, utterly gorgeous pre-group livery option, preservd specimen tie in...

[Graham R]

...  Corstorphine ( ... derivation?) ...

 

"Cross of the fair hill" (crois torr fionn) according to Wikipedia... or Cross of Torphin, who it seems was a grandson of Malcolm II.

[asarnot]

I also have vague memories of a J83 on a passenger working to Corstorphine, but it would have been in the afternoon, rather than the morning, and was three or four bogies rather than a dozen. Regarding the former, there was a photograph, possibly in 'Trains Illustrated' or similar magazine in the fifties, of a BR lined J83 flat out with an enormous load heading past Haymarket.

On the other hand, I clearly recall one of Burntisland's J83s toddling along the main line from Kinghorn most afternoons with a trip freight which shunted, among other places, the old 'bottle works' sidings at Pettycur. I'm not sure whether it also shunted Kinghorn station yard, but I suppose it would.

[60027Merlin]

The fact is, that among the RTR models that are available for the LNER, there is not one that is a widely dispersed type used routinely on branchline duties. The nearest candidate is the N2, regularly employed on the KX area branch lines; and even there the N7 was preferred for its lower axle loading.  A J83 roaring along with ten or more corridor coaches to Corstorphine (intriguing name that always sounds more like a cough mixture than a town - derivation?) is hardly 'classic' steam branch line operation, even though it offers a welcome chance to use one for branch line turns.

 

I am a little suprised at Hornby; having knocked out half a dozen quite lovely LNER non-gangwayed coaches haven't bethought themselves of something small and suitable to potter around with two or three in some rural backwater. The J67 to 69 family look ideal candidates to me given their wide dispersion, variety, utterly gorgeous pre-group livery option, preservd specimen tie in...

 

I have just come across this interesting thread and write to clarify a point about Corstorphine which is not a town but a suburb in the west of the city. The branch line which was just under a couple of miles in length left the Aberdeen line of the ECML a short distance up from the western end of Haymarket Shed at Balgreen where on entering the branch proper was Balgreen Halt, then about a mile further up, Pinkhill Station which was advertised as the stop for the Zoo and finally onwards to Corstorphine station situated in the eastern side of Corstorphine. The branch was closed in December 1967 much to the annoyance of us locals as the railway was a quicker and cheaper means of transport to get us into town than the Edinburgh Corporation buses (as good as they were). 

 

The original Corstorphine Station built in 1842 was at Saughton Road North on the ECML and in 1902 was moved into the then village where it remained until closure. Around the time of opening an army barracks was planned to be built in Corstorphine and to accommodate this the long platforms were installed however things changed and Army decided that the barracks would be better placed in Redford in the south west of town near Colinton. These long platforms were used to great effect, with for example, the morning train just after 8.10 for the Waverley consisted of 10 coaches which had been cleaned overnight. On arrival at Waverley they were then used for the next Aberdeen service. This all meant a varied working of trains from 0-6-0s to pacifics on the short branch which had the added bonus to local railway enthusiasts of being in close proximity to Haymarket Shed and the quadrupled ECMLines to Glasgow and Aberdeen. 

 

Today most of the line can be walked from Balgreen up to the Forestry Commission building opposite Corstorphine Hospital and the Zoo on the main Corstorphine Road. Unfortunately housing built on the rest of the trackbed and goods yard prohibits further walking into Station Road however, if a person had plenty of time on their hands on reaching the houses, they could always take the path up the side of the Forestry Commission and visit the Zoo! 

[Guest Max Stafford]

From my own observations of published material, it seems that north of the border in any case, 0-6-0 tank classes were rarely if ever used on anything other than yard work, urban goods trips and station pilot work. On the west coast, the situation with the Caley 782s was much the same as with the J83s. Branch passenger work up to about 1959 was more likely to be in the hands of a four-coupled type such as a C16 or 439. Six coupled locos on this kind of work in Scotland almost invariably had a tender on the back. Even if the loco had side tanks in the case of 'The Auld Lauder Light'!

 

Dave.

[Katier]

From my own observations of published material, it seems that north of the border in any case, 0-6-0 tank classes were rarely if ever used on anything other than yard work, urban goods trips and station pilot work. On the west coast, the situation with the Caley 782s was much the same as with the J83s. Branch passenger work up to about 1959 was more likely to be in the hands of a four-coupled type such as a C16 or 439. Six coupled locos on this kind of work in Scotland almost invariably had a tender on the back. Even if the loco had side tanks in the case of 'The Auld Lauder Light'!

 

Dave.

 

Was definitely the same in the NER region. While J71/2's were extensively used as station pilots, actual passenger turns on any NER 0-6-0 (even the J72 which went everywhere - even the BR WR!!!) was rare. 

 

The J79 did a small amount of work for a year on light railway duties, 

 

Some 0-6-2 classes did occasional passenger work, but same as Scotland, the standard passenger tank was normally of 2-4-2 or 0-4-4 configuration alongside the single 4-4-4 class (which was later rebuilt as a pacific tank).

[Graham R]

... it seems that north of the border in any case, 0-6-0 tank classes were rarely if ever used on anything other than yard work, urban goods trips and station pilot work ...

 

In general you are quite right, but for the perverse among us, there were more exceptions than you might think, particularly pre-grouping: apart from the J83s, the NB had classes E and R (J81 and J82) both initially used on passenger work - the 25 Rs were named for the branches they worked on, and some remained on passenger work into LNE days, particularly on the North Leith branch ...  the GNS had class D and E 0-6-0Ts on the "Subbie" Aberdeen-Dyce trains in the 1890s before 0-4-4Ts took over ... the Highland had some passenger turns for the Scrap tanks and Stroudley tanks, on the Hopeman and Dornoch branches - and later the LMS used Fowler 3Fs on Hopeman and (I think) Strathpeffer branches ... and don't forget the two 16xx pannier tanks on the Dornoch branch in the 1950s !