Bulleid 34003 Plymouth Work West of England?

[robmcg]

Hi All,

 

Could anyone speculate on the veracity or likelihood of 73B Bricklayers Arms Bulleid Light Pacific 34003 running west of London in a grimy state as pictured below, after rebuild in 1957 but before speedo fitting in 1960 and AWS in 1961?

 

Maybe I should change name and number to 70A 34018 'Axminster' or Exeter Shed's 34062 '17 Squadron' but I'm not sure about some of the details like tender, for around 1959 when the glories of the ex-LSWR main line were still alive.

 

Of course,I could pretend the pic was somewhere on the way to Ramsgate and just change headcodes, but I do rather want to depict the LSWR line to Exeter.

 

All suggestions welcome.

 

 

Regards to all,

 

Rob

 

 

[geoffers]

Hi Rob

 

Please keep the photos coming!

As far as your question is concerned. As a Bricklayers Arms loco I don't know if she would have ventured west to Plymouth

and photographic evidence would be needed to prove so. Personally I guess not. The silence since your post rather suggests no-one else does either.

 

However, Plymouth moved on to Salisbury on 10/2/1961 (Derry's Book of the West Country and Battle of Britain Pacifics) and there would be every chance

she would have gone to Exeter and, after the road to Plymouth was strengthened in 19??, she could have even gone to Plymouth (I guess you knew all

this anyway so forgive me if you have). I think the rebuilds were too heavy for all routes west of Exeter apart from Plymouth after strengthening. Others

far more knowledgeable than me on this forum will have a better idea.

 

Tenderwise 34018 was rebuilt 27/09/1958 and had tender no 3340 (5500 galls and this stayed with her until the end in 1967)  In 1959 she

was ay Nine Elms.  34062 rebuilt 28/03/1959 with tender 3271 (4500 galls and this stayed with her until her end 08/08/1964). Plymouth

had tender no 3325 on rebuilding in 28/09/1957, another 5500 gall tender. (All info from Derry).

 

Geoff

[Forester]

Easy enough to fit a speedo, battery box and new shed plate -

- and your Plymouth has red plates which is correct for your later period. They were black from new and for most of its time at Bricklayers Arms.

 

 

 

Edit: I mean black nameplates from newly rebuilt, of course

[Guest Belgian]

I have in front of me a lovely colour picture of 34003 on shed at Exmouth Junction on what is probably 7th April 1963 in almost the condition you show, obviously with AWS and speedo, but these aren't on view as she was pictured right side on and has overhead warning symbols at the base of the deflector.

 

She's amazingly clean for so late in the day, almost exactly as depicted by Hornby. She's facing the shed and blowing off so is apparently prepared to return eastwards being in reverse gear and with the driver looking backwards so she's off to Central to pick up a train.

 

JE

[robmcg]

Ah, thankyou, all. Belgian, your photo of a 1963-condition loco makes the adding of battery box and speedo and warning flashes a good option, retaining the red plate. However might also re-number to 34018 'Axminster' and in pre-AWS and keep the pre-1960 era.

 

Then again, my photos in many books show Bulleid rebuilds in generally quite clean condition before the early-mid 60s...  maybe that was partly because photographers tended to choose clean engines on sunny days?!

 

I also have a 34008 Padstow in pristine condition ...

 

Anyway, first things first, I think I'll paint the name and numbers to 'Axminster' first, a bit of licence, having only one black and white pic from Derry to go from...   red nameplate, I think, and the coat of arms doesn't look too tricky. Essentially I love the various descriptions of the ex-LSWR main line as described by many, up, down, well-maintained, 80+ mph in the dips, marvellous.

 

Oh, if I went to post-1961 I'd have to change the red-cream Maunsells too....

 

edit; furthermore I did venture into more dramatic smoke effects yesterday with the distinctive Bulleid shape of exhaust curling over the smokebox, but was a bit unsure. I modified and painted from pictures I have seen here and there, and certainly if I imitated the picture no.47 in Colin Gifford's 'Eash a Glimpse' of a light pacific 34095 'Brentor' leaving Winchester, I wouldn't have to worry about the colour of the carriages!

 

 

Rob

[robmcg]

..now I have 70A Nine Elms 34018 'Axminster' at speed on the LSWR line somewhere in Wessex,  coat of arms courtesy Google, numbers and other things courtesy PSP6 paintbrush.

 

I think 34018 was in this condition for the summer of 1959. 

 

Thankyou all for your replies.

 

 

Rob

 

 

[robmcg]

or, a warm day, with good coal, a good crew, and favorable signals, climbing a grade didn't always mean smoke...

 

 

 

 

...after all, the sun was always shining in Dorset and Somerset in 1959. We have photographs you know...

 

 

 

[Guest Belgian]

Robbie, you may enjoy the book in which 'Plymouth' appears, it's called 'Men, Machines & Maintenance at Exmouth Junction' and went to the printers yesterday for Noodle books. It should be available within 2 to 3 weeks, is 96 pages long and costs £14-95. (end of plug!)

 

Jeremy

[robmcg]

Thankyou Jeremy.

 

Seems that Noodle Books have brought some very nice material into being recently, I have the 'Exmouth Junction Fireman' book, the G F Heiron 'Waterloo to Ilfracombe' book and the rather sad 'Artist Among the Ashes' David Shephard book. 

All at very reasonable prices. The Heiron book is particularly good, his photos are great, and perhaps the printing in all three doesn't quite live up to very top standards.  Maybe I'm fussy but I published a book of my own photos called 'Christchurch Unseen' in 1988 (NZ and Aus only) with photo offset and it was a bit hard to get good reproduction. My own enthusiastic naievity in editing probably didn't help!

 

Rob

[robmcg]

I have in front of me a lovely colour picture of 34003 on shed at Exmouth Junction on what is probably 7th April 1963 in almost the condition you show, obviously with AWS and speedo, but these aren't on view as she was pictured right side on and has overhead warning symbols at the base of the deflector.

 

She's amazingly clean for so late in the day, almost exactly as depicted by Hornby. She's facing the shed and blowing off so is apparently prepared to return eastwards being in reverse gear and with the driver looking backwards so she's off to Central to pick up a train.

 

JE

 

Thankyou for that, I can imagine such a scene for some future photo. The Noodle book 'Exeter Memories' Exeter Junction Fireman by Richard Parkinson has many evocative photos of late 50s-early 60s steam, and notes that the rebuilt Bulleids were greatly liked by crews...  mind you, the nature things in BR at the time as we all know meant that very few locos of any kind were ever cleaned!  What to do with my 34008 'Padstow'...   hmmm

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

[robmcg]

Easy enough to fit a speedo, battery box and new shed plate -

- and your Plymouth has red plates which is correct for your later period. They were black from new and for most of its time at Bricklayers Arms.

 

 

 

Edit: I mean black nameplates from newly rebuilt, of course

 

Ah!  Black nameplates, Bricklayers Arms it is, London Bridge to Dover via Chislehurst and Tonbridge,  or even, according to my Ian Allan abc 1956/7 reprint, to Portsmouth via Redhill and Horsham...

 

I think I like the idea of a Dover and Ramsgate service via Chislehurst. There were large old trees in Kent, I hope? <g>

 

[Forester]

Now you're really tugging at the Boat Train nostalgia, Rob.

 

Just needs a Pullman Parlour and a Kitchen (12 wheel of course) tucked in amongst the carmine and cream....... 

[Forester]

Interesting how most people these days prefer their rebuilt Bulleids with red nameplates.

 

The early rebuilds' black plates shifted the attention away from the name to the crests which were really beautifully crafted. I always liked the delicate green Plymouth crest as one of my favourites. Red plates overwhelmed most of the crests except the predominantly red and yellow ones like Exeter, Yeovil and Axminster.

[robmcg]

Thankyou Forester, it's nice to try to get these things reasonably 'right', and the black background to the Plymouth nameplate certainly sets off the green crest.  I wonder why these things varied? Whim of paintshop foreman, or plate casting-foundry or BR design rules?

[Jim104]

Thankyou Forester, it's nice to try to get these things reasonably 'right', and the black background to the Plymouth nameplate certainly sets off the green crest.  I wonder why these things varied? Whim of paintshop foreman, or plate casting-foundry or BR design rules?

It was BR policy at the time around 1958 (I am sure someone will correct me ) that all express locomotives had black backgrounds to their nameplates, Eastleigh works repainted the nameplates as locos passed through, if you see any photographs of the time taken at Eastleigh of outshopped Bulleids you can see the black backgrounds. Later however into the 1960's the nameplates started to reappear as red, why this happened I do not know, perhaps someone at Eastleigh had a surplus of red paint :-).

[robmcg]

As to nameplates, I cannot help but think about the way the BR Standard 5MTs received names from withdrawn King Arthurs, and how rarely they (the 5MTs) were cleaned.

 

In view of the rarity of the Riddles designs ever being cleaned while working for the Southern Region, ...

 

this is an antidote to the many thousands of photos in existence with these engines in a thoroughly unkempt state.

 

oops edit; added smokebox side lamp brackets. How could I forget?

 

 

Rob

[Dunsignalling]

It was BR policy at the time around 1958 (I am sure someone will correct me ) that all express locomotives had black backgrounds to their nameplates, Eastleigh works repainted the nameplates as locos passed through, if you see any photographs of the time taken at Eastleigh of outshopped Bulleids you can see the black backgrounds. Later however into the 1960's the nameplates started to reappear as red, why this happened I do not know, perhaps someone at Eastleigh had a surplus of red paint :-).

I'm not sure when (or if) the colour change became official policy and its application may have varied from shed to shed.

 

Red paint seems to have been applied sooner if the loco was allocated to Nine Elms or Exmouth Junction. The practice certainly spread to other sheds but photographs suggest that Bournemouth (for one) continued to prefer black.

 

Very few 'Battle of Britain' locos ever carried red plates, theirs were generally pale blue (somewhat lighter than RAF blue, IMHO)

 

John 

[geoffers]

Regarding the background colours to the Bulleid nameplates - this was something I asked a few years back and there was no definite answer. In my case it was why and when the black background to 34067 Tangmere as then modelled by Hornby changed to light blue. Several WCs, BoBs and MNs had these black backgrounds changed to red or light blue. I found an answer of sorts in R. J. Harvey's Locomotives in Detail 1 - Bulleid 4-6-2 Merchant Navy Class (published by Ian Allan in 2004). On page 95 "....In May 1962, No, 35012 was repainted and this included a red ground to the nameplates. Future nameplate repaints were in this colour and it appears that the shade was the same as that used for the buffer beams...."  So not an answer but it maybe hints at a change of loco works policy, or maybe the need to use up some paint.