layout planning help

[bluedepot]

hi

 

can anyone help with a layout plan or suggest a website with plans on it?

 

i want the layout to be HO scale, portable, and it will be dcc (but if it can operate as both dc and dcc that would be good)

 

i am thinking end to end because round and round would take up a lot of space. i just want a small country station (typical french structure), maybe with a passing loop and a few sidings, a small shed or goods shed...

 

the trains operating will be diesel or steam.  diesel autorails or trip freights for sncf era 1980s - today, or steam tank engine and a few coaches for operating as a heritage line.

 

what type of track do people recommend?

 

any suggestions gratefully received!

 

 

tim

 

 

 

[bluedepot]

this is the idea i have currently... any thoughts?  would you use a double slip like that in a small rural goods yard?

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

That trackplan is not saying France to me. But track layouts do vary from region to region so it would help to know where you have in mind.

What you may find helpful is that many French termini are set out like through stations. So you can save space by starting as a terminus and extend later.

Nothing really wrong with double-slip in goods yards but less likely in rural areas. Goods yard usually same side as station building.

Peco75 is a good track option. But take a look at Tillig and Shinohara too.

[Fat Controller]

This line is a tourist line at weekends and public holidays, but carries SNCF traffic as well (ballast):-

http://cftb.free.fr/present.htm

As is this one:-

https://sites.google.com/site/cftva01/

Similar operations exist near Perpignan, and probably elsewhere- most French preservation groups only lease the track from RFF/SNCF, and can be somewhat transient in nature.

I wouldn't bother with the double-slip; as Joseph said, they're uncommon in rural France. Indeed, I'd even consider not having the headshunt(tiroir) ; I've seen lots of small yards without them.

You ask elsewhere about four or six wheel coaches- the most likely ones you'd see would be ex-DR 'boites de tonerre' six-wheelers, taken as part of war reparitions. The Monts-Lyonnais line has them. You might find them in the Arnold or Piko ranges.

[bluedepot]

cheers guys for the very fast replies!

 

that's very useful info.  the idea is that it's a through station by the way, with a fiddle yard (or maybe cassettes) at each end). it is not location specific. i am hoping to go to france again this year to Geneva, and also maybe to the Alsace-Lorraine area again, so i will look out closely at any rural stations.

 

i will re design to move the goods yard to the same side as the station, and remove the double slip.

 

re the prototype, that's very useful to know about the weekend leasing of lines by heritage groups as this can be my backstory as well!

 

Cheers for coach advice too, I'll google some DR coaches!

 

Best wishes and thanks again

 

 

Tim

 

 

 

 

[Orinoco]

The railways of France have a very strong regional flavour with an atmosphere and track layouts very different to those in the UK.

 

I suggest you spend time absorbing more of the flavour before designing a layout.

 

Try this site for starters........

 

http://roland.arzul.pagesperso-orange.fr/index.htm

 

It contains lots of period images, a few drawings and information about stock.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Not sure how much space you have, Tim. You might like to look at some stations in the Jura: Morez is a particularly good location with two lines converging and what should have been a cross-border route into Switzerland.

[SNCF stephen]

You may want to have a look at the plan of my N Gauge layout (see the link below in my signature) as it is pretty similar to what you are doing. There are a whole host of different configurations that rural stations have/had in that area. So I would echo what other people have said and absorb the different prototypes. Then have a think about what the sidings might have been used for in the past as that will  have a big impact on how they might look (on my layout they were used for the local farmers to get their goods into the cities but have more recently been adapted for use as timber sidings but mainly function as an area where the maintenance crews can work from). 

[Armchair Modeller]

If you want something compact you could look at track layouts for French metre gauge lines. These were often built to main line standards and some were even converted to standard gauge in later life.

 

Examples include the Reseau Breton - an excellent book is available in the Oakwood Press range with track plans, drawings of buildings and photos.

 

Also, there are web sites - though many require huge amounts of time to wade through.......

 

One compact site with 2 termini is here http://www.atelier-crabe.com/H28.html

 

Google searches on phrases like "plan gare" etc will produce other results.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Mention of metre-gauge gives rise to consideration of the southern branch of the CFBS - dual gauge and some interesting trackplans although not particularly compact. The interchange station at Noyelles has seen steam specials in recent years bringing people to CFBS special events.

[shortliner]

If you read French, I have two suggestions [url=http://teamtrack.xooit.com/f15-LAYOUT.htm and http://blog.ptitrain.com/

[bluedepot]

cheers for all the replies!

 

yes i think more research and looking at pictures to find a good track plan and location is definitely needed!  i'm not wanting to build a 100% accurate layout, but it does help it to look more realistic if based roughly on a real plan and location...

 

thanks for all the links and suggestions!

 

stephen, i like your n gauge layout track arrangment.

 

best wishes

 

 

tim

[JeffP]

Gogle maps: Autun gare, have a look. It has everything, small french station, yard, passing loops, little 1/4 roundhouse.....

[dowot]

Hi there, just joined so I give some help, as I am about to commence a SNCF station and finding ideas was difficult.

 

French railway magazines are available from many station kiosks as well as some department and super stores. Recomended are Loco Revue, which usually has a monthly plan/layout in much detail, plus the normal construction and review items, all in better detail than some UK mag. Yes you need to understand French, but the pictures help.

 

In the December2012 edition there is a particularly pleasing and different brach terminus, based on Northern France prototype. Reseau Gilles-en Picardie. Some pictures of this layout are available on line, but the mag article shows a lot more.

 

Then there is RMF, (Rail Miniature Flash), Le Train and for more prototype info, Vois Ferrees. There are many others, but these I have found to be best.

 

All are available to view on line.

 

Loco revue also offer a range of handbooks, covering planning, operation, signaling among others.

 

None of these are cheap, most mags being in the 8 to 10 euro price band.

 

Some old copies are available on ebay, with some being available to buyers from the UK.

 

Using a web search brings up some French model layouts,, or reseau, but is also invaluable for prototype information, the French are happy to discuss all and every fine detail of the workings of the SNCF with copious picture links.

 

Try "Gare Argy", LR Presse, Les trains de l'histoire, Rouen RD. This last a very nice tunnel to platform through station with a wonderful range of stock over the years. (Search images)

 

Finally my first rough outline for a small junction terminus, with a small embranchment to a wine factory.

 

Good luck and enjoy the research. France is full of rail history.

 

 

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I only know of one place in France with a sector-plate for loco release: Boulogne-Maritime which is certainly not in wine-producing country. There's a good brewery there though.

[Foulounoux]

There is an hor series of one of the magazines that is basically a guide to pro type French layouts, junctions, stations etc ill see if I can find it and if it can be ordered over internet

[Foulounoux]

Loco revue hor series no 15 from 2009

http://www.lrmodelisme.com/accueil-boutique/bien-debuter---modelisme-trains/650-hslr15-hors-serie-3-2009-comment-tracer-votre-reseau.html#menu_centre

 

A good guide to real life French practice

 

Colin

[Pacific231G]

I'd be a bit cautious about using French layouts as a guide to prototype French station design unless they're based on actual locations. A fair number of otherwise very well modelled layouts have track plans that seem a long way from any real practice.

 

Fortunately, the French practice of leaving closed railways intact for years- sometimes decades- before formal abandonment means that quite a lot of useful information can often be gleaned from Google Earth or Geoportail though for actual trackplans you may need to delve a bit futher. Similarly where stations are still open but with services reduced to perhaps a railcar shuttling along a line you quite often find goods yards and the rest of the layout still intact even if gently rusting away. I have noticed though that dismantlement seems to be happening rather faster these days than it used to.

 

Branch line termini were rarer than in Britain with most rural lines running between junctions to open up areas of the country. Where termini did appear it was most often when the railway met a barrier such as the coast or mountains. As this often meant that the town served was a resort  many of them had through carriages to and from Paris rather akin to the West Country branches served by sections of the Atlantic Coast Express . Termini were far more common on "Interet Local" lines, roughly the equivalent of our light railways with less stringent regulation, as these were more the responsibility of the local authority than the national government. However,  even narrow gauge local railways often had a main line connection at both ends and many of them were very extensive networks covering hundreds of kilometres.

 

In the design of track layouts the French seem far more fond of parallel lines than do we so sidings are normally parallel to one another and to the main running lines and less likely to be in a "fan".  Most British stations of any size had a coal siding at the back of the goods yard to serve the local coal merchants. This was quite rare in France as the country had far less coal and it was typically used by industry but less so domestically outside the cities.

 

The typical small goods yard that would be worked by the local pick up goods train had a siding for the goods shed and loading dock and another siding further back from the main line known as the "voie de debordement"  where customers shipping whole wagonloads would transfer goods to and from their carts or lorrries. The weighbridge was typically on the track that served the goods shed. Private sidings were quite common to serve facilities such as agricultural co-operatives' silos but the smaller ones might simply be built alongside the voie de debordement. 

 

Signal boxes were less common at smaller stations than in Britain. The Chef de Gare was personally responsible for traffic- without staffs or tokens sending a train onto a single track section could only be authorised by him personally- so the block instruments or telephones were often in his office or with the levers on the platform outside.

French signalling is a vast subject in itself but in general - certainly in the days of mechanical signals- fewer signals were required but they came in a much wider range of types than our basic two - stop/home/starter signals and caution/distant signals. On lightly used lines signalling could be reduced to no signals at all just fixed boards with the chef de gare giving instructions verbally or with flags or portable stop signals.

 

French practice makes a distinction between running lines (voies principales) and sidings etc (voies de service). Except under special  circumstances trains carrying passengers can only run on voies principales and these must be protected from conflicting movements on voies de service by headshunts (sometimes), catch points (occasionally) derailers (most commonly)  or simply by the track layout. Voies principales must not have catch points or derailers on them and in general rolling stock should not be left unattended on a voie principale unless it's a rake of passenger stock sitting on a platform waiting for a return journey. Normally the main lines and all the platform tracks used by passenger trains are classed as voies principales.

 

A lot of modellers place the station in the heart of the town or village often with the weekly market right next to the station and the church and town hall alongside. In reality stations were generally built on the then edges of towns or even half way between two villages some distance from the railway. This led to the typical Quartier de la Gare which might include some railwaymen's cottages, a café or even a hotel, a warehouse owned by a local trader but little else. Often once the railway had arriived the town would develop towards it along the Avenue or Rue de la Gare and quite well to do houses as well as the usual hotels and cafes might well be built very close the station.

 

If I think of anything else I'll add it.

[dowot]

I only know of one place in France with a sector-plate for loco release: Boulogne-Maritime which is certainly not in wine-producing country. There's a good brewery there though.

That is the only one I know of as well although there are some examples, especially of early periods, of turntables (Pont tournee I think.) at the end of platforms. That is the layout of the model I refered to, Reseau Gilles-en Picardie. I just used a sector as I am short of space, something not many prototype stations have a problem with.

 

An examples of a station (Gare) with a small turntable at platform (Quai) end is, Magny en Vexin, I also think that Sceaux Robinson had a turntable at some point in it's history. The photo I have has a 3 way point, and shows a goods shed (Halle de Merchandise?) away from the station building.( Batiment Voyagers)

Plese correct my french, I only include them as it sometimes helps putting the french word in a UK search engine. French platform is not as prolific as Quai de gare!

 

To get hold of old french magazines I have used a dealer on French ebay, mcd8000, (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/histoiredeguerreaviationetc) who seems to be reasonably priced and speedy in supply. I brought 3 magazines, paid and got a postage reduction without asking for it, which was very fair as the postage is not excessive and I know how much French postage can be!

 

Good luck.

[dowot]

Sorry had another thought. Loops, the French like to use loops rather than dead end sidings.

 

Coucy le Chateau Auffrique is another example of goods shed away from the main station building.

 

The goods shed here is a rather attractive round roofed affair.

[Joseph_Pestell]

231G already mentioned the use of loops (strictly speaking double-ended sidings). Indeed he summed up the whole design philosophy of small French stations quite brilliantly.

 

To some extent, similar considerations apply in other European countries as well so track layout is less of an issue than the buildings (he notes the almost universal absence of signalboxes in France away from large stations) and whether stations are set up for left-hand (most of France) or right-hand running (Alsace-Lorraine).

 

Another consideration at French stations (and elsewhere in Europe) is the usual absence of footbridges or underpasses for passengers. The arrangement of platforms and buildings should be such that passengers can cross the line easily via the boarded crossing without being blocked by a stationary train or by goods wagons on the siding/loop that runs in front of the station building.

 

To those of us who are used to a lot of shunting on UK style layouts, care needs to be taken in designing a French/European prototype layout. All too easy to be realistic but not much of a challenge to operate.

 

Finally, France is a country with a lot of land area and, as 231G points out, stations usually built on the periphery of towns (faubourg de la Gare). Railway companies did not therefore generally need to be careful about keeping stations small which is a problem for modellers. Standard gauge lines such as the Reseau Breton which were converted from narrow-gauge can provide a useful exception to this.

[mickey9]

One French magazine which I have not seen mentioned is "Ferrovissime",which was occasionally available in odd issues from Midland Counties Publishing online mail order but since takeover by Ian Allan group I don't know if it's still possible to order any.If so,it's well worth it as this is a high quality A4 size mag with lots of colour pictures of the real SNCF and sometimes modelling.Used to be only about £8 inc.pp. and with lots more pages,better value than Loco Revue,in my opinion.I believe it may be possible to order from the publisher online,if you can speak French.One odd feature of some SNCF stations,is a line actually cutting through a platform to access a goods yard etc.For modelling ideas I'd look through old copies of Continental Modeller too.Hope this is of help.

[Fat Controller]

Not sure if you can open this link without joining, but if you can, it has lots of good-quality photographs:-

http://voies-ferrees-de-france.xooit.fr/index.php

To the previous suggestion of Autun, I'd add Chatillon-sur-Seine, in the north-west of the Bourgogne region. This was once a 'noued-ferroviare' with several cross-country routes and branches crossing, but is now a de-facto terminus. Traffic includes timber and grain (staples of rural stations throughout France), but also steel coil (Metal Box-Carnaud), scrap and fuel oil. It's on the 'Itineraie Bis' from Troyes towards Lyon, as is Autun; I tend to use this route for the second half of trips by road to Lyon, as 800 km of autoroutes numbs the brain..

A turntable is a 'Plaque Tournante', I believe; 'Pont Tournant' is a swing bridge.

Beaujeu would have been a nice small terminus; being at the bottom of a narrowing valley, the site was relatively constrained. Facilities were simple, though there was a small engine shed (remise), and a siding serving the agricultural co-operative. The track lasted until the beginning of the 1990s, perhaps later, though passenger services had stopped in the 1940s or 50s, and freight in the 1980s. In latter days, freight to the main line junction at Belleville-sur-Saone was worked by a locotracteur.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Most French-language magazines can be obtained through SNCF Society; either borrowed from the Library or via the Sales Officer.

 

Interesting to note that many of the suggestions above are from PLM country. I think that the PLM had the most interesting track layouts to model of  the French main-line companies. Some years ago a book was available that was a reprint of official diagrams of all the PLM junction stations in the early 1900s (junction in this case including interfaces with other main-line companies and narrow-gauge lines).

 

A line running through/across a platform to access the goods yard is reasonably common, always, I think, where platforms have been lengthened at some stage. Ones that immediately come to mind: Albertville, Rivesaltes, Quiberon.

[dowot]

Three simple layouts, taken from my "Le Reseau Miniature" book "La signalisation". pub Loco revue. Yann Baude.