Cattle Wagons and Limewash/Whitewash

[LNWR lives on]

Hey all

 

I am making up some kits for cattle wagons which are for the period circa 1926. Wagons which will be modeled are LNWR medium and large mainly with some MR wagons intermixed and also some early LMS ones.

 

My question is when was limewash/whitewash stopped in use on the wagons as a disinfecant? Information on this seems scarce/varied, some information says WW1, some as late as 1944 a notice was published, so does anyone have anything definitive please?

 

Cheers

 

David

 

 

[lyndonsdad1]

It states in one of the comics,and I can't remember which one, but it was around the time of the grouping.

[lyndonsdad1]

Try Model Rail July 2003, use of lime as a disinfectant was discontinued around 1924.

[The Stationmaster]

It was prohibited to use limewash under the Animals (transit and General) Order of either 1924, 1926 or 1927 - regret that I can't find the originals to trace which of these it was but I suspect judging by GWR amendments that it might be 1926.

[buffalo]

In the parliamentary debate of 27 Feb 1924 on the Diseases of Animals Bill, Mr Clayton asked

 

"...There is also the question of disinfecting railway trucks, docks, stations and markets. At present the principle in most cases is simply to whitewash, which is absolutely useless for the purpose. I would suggest that the Ministry look into the question of seriously disinfecting..."

 

and Major Steel asked

 

"...Has the Minister taken step to approach the railway companies with a view to getting them to disinfect and clean out the cattle trucks far more thoroughly than they are in the habit of doing in ordinary times?"

 

The speaker's responce to Major Steel was

 

"I have to remind the hon. and gallant Member and the House that, on the Third Reading of a Bill, the discussion is confined to the contents of the Bill, and is not of the same width as the discussion on the Second Reading of the Bill. I do not think the powers conferred by this Bill include the matters just referred to by the hon. and gallant Member, namely, the destruction of sacks and the cleaning of the railway trucks."

 

From which it seems reasonable to assume that limewashing was then still current. As Mike has written while I am typing, the Animals (Transit and General)(Amendment) orders or 1924, 1925 and 1926 are proving difficult to trace online, but the Transit of Animals Order 1927 24 (i) says

 

"The floor, roof, sides, of the inside of the truck, and the sides, ends,, and fittings of the outside of the truck, and all other parts thereof with which any animal or its droppings or other excretions, have come in contact shall be scraped and swept, and the scrapings and sweepings, and all dung, sawdust, litter and other matter shall be effectively removed therefrom; then the same parts of the truck shall be thoroughly washed or scrubbed or scoured with water; and then be disinfected by being thoroughly coated or washed with an approved disinfectant."

 

Nick

 

edit, had to nip out for a few minutes so finished that too abruptly. "Approved Disinfectant" is defined as:

"...either a five per cent. solution of standard phenol, or a disinfectant approved by the Minister for the purposes of the Diseases of Animals (Disinfection) Order of 1926, if used at the dilution at which such disinfectant is so approved."

 

So, it looks like the 1926 order is probably the origin of the 5% phenol solution as a replacement for limewash. Unfortunately, that order  has not been digitised so is not available online.

 

Much of this legislation appears to stem from outbreaks of foot and mouth in the mid twenties.

[Kenton]

"limewash" and "whitewash" I have often wondered if there was a difference.

 

Although quite apart from the rules on the railways, I can remember summers in the late 50's and 60's being given the job of cleaning out and whitewashing the cattle pens on the farm. The stuff was made by pouring a lim/plaster into a buckets and adding water. The resulting suspension had to be regularly stirred and heated itself to near boiling. One then proceeded to use a long handle brush to smear it over the walls and just about everywhere else.

 

Perhaps this was a more animal friendly material and replace the original outlawed "limewash". It might also explain photos later than 1926 where white was evident. Didn't white paint at the time (and even for many years into the 1960's) contain very high levels of lead (the principle whitening agent) - hardly animal friendly itself.

[LNWR lives on]

Ok, so the stock I am modeling is around the time the use of whitewash stopped, so in that case what advice would you guys give for painting the internals of the wagons as white is now gone, so would it be a patchy white on the walls where the limewash is fading out slowly? Dark brown behind it to represent the wood sides?

 

I did read somewhere the floors were covered in pitch/tar to make removal of excrement and straw easier but there was no date on it

[wagonman]

The floors of cattle wagons, at least when new, were wooden with transverse battens to stop the animals sliding about. I don't know about tar - it may have been a later addition.

 

Limewash is slaked lime in water (which is exothermic, hence the heat) much like whitewash though the latter usually has chalk and other additives.

 

I'm pretty sure the date of the change was indeed 1926. All traces of limewash would soon have been removed by the required washing leaving a bare wood surface inside the truck. Most wagon paints in those days were lead based so you didn't want your cattle licking that off the inside of the truck!

[The Stationmaster]

"limewash" and "whitewash" I have often wondered if there was a difference.

 

Although quite apart from the rules on the railways, I can remember summers in the late 50's and 60's being given the job of cleaning out and whitewashing the cattle pens on the farm. The stuff was made by pouring a lim/plaster into a buckets and adding water. The resulting suspension had to be regularly stirred and heated itself to near boiling. One then proceeded to use a long handle brush to smear it over the walls and just about everywhere else.

 

Perhaps this was a more animal friendly material and replace the original outlawed "limewash". It might also explain photos later than 1926 where white was evident. Didn't white paint at the time (and even for many years into the 1960's) contain very high levels of lead (the principle whitening agent) - hardly animal friendly itself.

Limewash appears to have been made from quick lime judging by some of the older vehicle cleaning instructions which say 'clean with a solution of quick lime'.

 

And once the practice was banned that was it and all traces had to be removed - cleaning had to be 'thorough' once the waste straw etc had all been removed.

[buffalo]

I think it's important to understand that this change took place in a wider context than just railway practice. Much of what has been said in the past has been expressed in terms of the deleterious effects of limewash on the animals' feet, and no doubt there was widespread concern for matters like this under the broad heading of animal welfare. The sections in GWR Appendixes that I've seen show that there was concern for the welfare of the animals they transported, perhaps extending beyond the merely financial. However, there had been large scale outbreaks of foot and mouth disease between 1922 and 1924, and this probably was the driving force behind legislation at the time. The the Transit of Animals Order 1927 that I mentioned earlier enshrines the legislation, and perhaps builds on earlier orders (we won't know about those until someone takes a look at the documents at Kew). It's perhaps also worth noting that it covers a wide range of transport, not just rail. What isn't clear is the extent to which there was a wider move towards this change such that the legislation effectively formalised changes in practice that had taken place over the past few years. Certainly, it became illegal to continue using limewash in 1927, but had the practice largely ceased by then? It would be useful to know of any memos, directives, etc., issued within the railway companies on this matter during the years 1924-7.

 

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

I think it's important to understand that this change took place in a wider context than just railway practice. Much of what has been said in the past has been expressed in terms of the deleterious effects of limewash on the animals' feet, and no doubt there was widespread concern for matters like this under the broad heading of animal welfare. The sections in GWR Appendixes that I've seen show that there was concern for the welfare of the animals they transported, perhaps extending beyond the merely financial. However, there had been large scale outbreaks of foot and mouth disease between 1922 and 1924, and this probably was the driving force behind legislation at the time. The the Transit of Animals Order 1927 that I mentioned earlier enshrines the legislation, and perhaps builds on earlier orders (we won't know about those until someone takes a look at the documents at Kew). It's perhaps also worth noting that it covers a wide range of transport, not just rail. What isn't clear is the extent to which there was a wider move towards this change such that the legislation effectively formalised changes in practice that had taken place over the past few years. Certainly, it became illegal to continue using limewash in 1927, but had the practice largely ceased by then? It would be useful to know of any memos, directives, etc., issued within the railway companies on this matter during the years 1924-7.

 

Nick

It had definitely not changed by January 1924 as the amendment to the GWR Appendix of that date makes no reference to any changes.

[Il Grifone]

Quicklime (Calcium Oxide) reacts with water to become Slaked Lime (Calcium Hydroxide) giving off heat in the process.

To sum up, it would appear that limewash was used up to 1924, but had been replaced by Phenol disinfectant by 1927. This, of course doesn't help with an exact date, but it could possibly have been a gradual process?

 

(I trust this is the case or I will have to embark on a cattle truck repainting programme.......)

[Graham456]

Sorry Grifone but I think a repainting session is in order once the law changed regarding lime wash it had to be removed not just allowed to wear off , haveing said that I expect whilst a thorough job on the inside of vans was done, the external paint would have been stained by the alkaline in the lime wash so would have not been so new looking

Lime washing of cow barns walls was allowed to continue because cows don't stand on the walls to dissolve there hooves ! And if they licked the walls the taste would put them off from eating to much, Which is why Kenton can remember lime washing back in the fiftys

[Il Grifone]

Sorry Grifone but I think a repainting session is in order once the law changed regarding lime wash it had to be removed not just allowed to wear off , haveing said that I expect whilst a thorough job on the inside of vans was done, the external paint would have been stained by the alkaline in the lime wash so would have not been so new looking

Lime washing of cow barns walls was allowed to continue because cows don't stand on the walls to dissolve there hooves ! And if they licked the walls the taste would put them off from eating to much, Which is why Kenton can remember lime washing back in the fiftys

 

I was afraid of that! Perhaps I could backdate the layout a year or two. (This would save fitting a few sets of brake gear too....)