Londontram Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 I think I did ask before some where else on this forum but has any one got a track plan for Loch Tay or any photos as well they could scan for me. I have quite a few but am always on the look out for more. Thanks Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 ... a track plan for Loch Tay .... OS 25" map of Loch Tay (then zoom in) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
souwest Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 There was a wee booklet published many years ago on the line. Also the Caledonian Railway Association ran a feature on the line, with station buildings, track plans and a detailed history. I cannot recall the issues of the True Line, but the Association itself may be able to provide copies, or the Mitchell library. I daresay there may be fellows here that coudl rustle up a copy or two. Loch Tay would be an excellent model in any scale. A Glasgow club had a model of a combined Loch Tay/ Killin under the name of Bredalbane in 7mm some time ago - featured in BRM - a stoatin' model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Stewart Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Steve, This was also covered in one of the very early Airfix Model Train magazines (sorry can't remember which one) Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 <p>Hi chaps, thanks for the help this is very much in the early stages yet and I blame the wife for all this let me explain. As you may guess from the user name my interest has been trams mainly London ones and I,m working on a small one at the moment but I do/have modeled Railways most of my life as well mainly the midland area during the change over period ie 1958 to 1968 a period I can remember. my last big model was a free lance midland round house depot in he loft off my old house. First kid then a divorce took up all my time </p> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clecklewyke Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I look forward to seeing this develop. I am afraid that I cannot help you with photos but have you seen the Layout Design book by Barry Norman, published by Wild Swan? I'm pretty certain it has a design based on Loch Tay - or else it was one of his designs in MRJ. I am interested in this as I regularly have a sailing holiday on Loch Tay and often have tacked my dinghy up to the site of Loch Tay station. There's not much of it left, the site now being in private hands, built up with chalet-type houses, and the jetty having disappeared. I think a model of the station would be delightful. If built in 2mm scale there would be room for lots of scenery, and the pier sticking out on the loch would be very effective although how you would uncouple a train reliably might be a problem? Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 sorry the pc went down mid message now my wife said to me one day can we build one together and how about somewhere like here holding up a copy. of peoples friend with Loch Tay on the front and there it was the deed was done But the more I looked into it the more sense it made. It would have to be compressed into say three boards of say 4' by 3' making it 12' long by 3 ' deep plus fiddle yard in 4mm scale any less than 3 ' wide and there would be no room for the jetty any more and you will have storage and transport problems (I want to show his one) if you look on the map that Graham down loaded it would cover the area from say just beyond the engine shed where the power station is now to the spit of land that juts out in the direction of Killin junction. I might use a bit of licence and bring the ruin of Finlarig castle closer to add a bi of interest to that end. It would be set about 1910 when the Caledonian was at its hight and at that period there was no road serving the communities further up the loch so there was a lot of goods in and out including coal for the boats (maybe a nice puffer) and for the communities further up the loch, lumber for the saw mill seen in the plan near the station and finished timber going out by rail and at this time holidays in Scotland had become very popular to the post Victorians so steam ship trips (again with a bit of licence a paddle steamer) were very popular . So there is plenty of scope to run a range of different trains to serve all of this and all this from the cover of peoples friend! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCJACOB Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Suggest an excellent article in Railway Bylines September 1999 and sorry to say no idea of the reference for the plan. Rather a large collection covering the whole line so e mail me if you want hard copies Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCJACOB Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 While having a rummage in the garage found lots of things I didn't know I had. This was in a book Caledonian Railway Livery J MacIntosh No idea why I've got this as normally a North British fan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 14, 2013 Author Share Posted September 14, 2013 Thanks Doc I'm sure glad you had it though, I've never seen the station from this angle before and for the first time ever I now have an idea of what the house pos. farm on the hill looks like up till now its just been a plan on the map but you can now see its a white two story building with at least two or three chimney stacks and a lean to at this end with a barn like building at right angles to it, much to important to leave out as it overlooks the whole station . Also small details like the point and signal rodding running along the front of the track and platform edge and even down to the fence on the foot path that climbs up to the house behind the train. yes a photo like his can tell one so much and fill in a load of gaps any more? Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 14, 2013 Author Share Posted September 14, 2013 I thought at first that it might have been taken at the same time as this photo but the coach combination is different but if you blow it up it looks like the same class of engine one of the 0-4-2 Killin pugs http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?sa=X&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=635&tbm=isch&tbnid=4ouZuSiLXDUOjM:&imgrefurl=http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo%3Fgroup%3DCrewe%26objid%3D1996-7316_CR_MC_104&docid=Mrbkgf9vIOwItM&imgurl=http://www.nrm.org.uk/img/nrm/worksphotos/Crewe/1996-7316_CR_MC_104.jpg&w=678&h=558&ei=Vag0UqSwOYLN7AayyoC4Bw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:0,s:0,i:82&iact=rc&page=1&tbnh=184&tbnw=207&start=0&ndsp=12&tx=116&ty=59 wish I had plans of these coaches they would make great modeling projects the brake with itts american style caboose is to die for Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 16, 2013 Author Share Posted September 16, 2013 Being bed bound with just my lap top for company after a serious operation (sound of playing violins please) has given me plenty of time to research Loch Tay and sometimes it can throw up more questions than it answers, any way this turned up when I was looking at the signalling at Loch Tay. KILLIN RAILWAY. LOCH-TAY (KILLIN PIER.) Engines are not to be allowed to pass on to the Timber Pier at this place, and Loaded Wagons are to be run down the North Loop, and Empty Wagons taken out by the South Loop. These instructions appeared in the appendix to the working time tables dated 1st August 1888 On the pier there are two lines that come together near the end of the pier by a crane. The south line on the edge of the pier and the north more near the center line of the pier so I can understand the limit on the south loop due to weight limitations near the pier edge but it’s the top part s confusing as it seems to restrict loco access to the pier which begs the question how did they move the loaded wagons 100’ or so? There seems no provision for horses either in the paper work or on the plan and photo’s, there’s no powered method like pulleys or capstans and I cant believe they used man power alone to move them the length of the pier so how was it done? The pier at Loch Tay was built on wooden pilings and was not solid but I always thought it could take the weigh of say a Killin pug so dose one invoke the old modelers license again and ignore the rule for operating purposes if so how far can you go before its no longer a copy of the prototype? What do you think chaps. Next question the whole Killin branch is controlled by tokens of staff’s from Killin junction to Killin and then Killin to Loch Tay with the provision to lock trains in the Loch Tay section but at Loch Tay in the early days was a seven lever ground frame controlling signals and interlocking points on both the station passing loop and entry to the pier sidings. The question is if the section from Killin is controlled by a staff which also unlocks the ground frame the line rule states that only one train either one engine in steam or two coupled together at any one time then there is no provision for more than one train to be on the branch at any one time so making the need to have signalling on the branch unnecessary maybe that’s why it was all taken out in the twenties. The signals all seem to be home signals mounted on round solid posts with ball and spike finals in the Scottish style (Not Caledonian lattice type posts) but then the Killin branch was an independent built and owned branch until the grouping and was just operated by the Caley. Your views welcomed chaps. Regards Steve http://www.oban-line.info/lt2/lt2.html This is the link to the signaling info page on the layout at Loch Tay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 ... how did they move the loaded wagons 100’ or so? There seems no provision for horses either in the paper work or on the plan and photo’s, there’s no powered method like pulleys or capstans and I cant believe they used man power alone to move them the length of the pier so how was it done? ... Loose shunting to put wagons onto the pier (plus the shunter running alongside the brake lever); a pinch bar aided by the gradient to take them off? Or horses, even if there's no stable on the plan. Maybe it was subcontracted to a local carter, given that there would hardly have been enough traffic to keep a railway horse busy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted September 18, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 18, 2013 some pics later in life at: http://www.railbrit.co.uk/location.php?photographer=&loc=Loch Tay&offset=0 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 19, 2013 Author Share Posted September 19, 2013 Cheers Keefer keep them coming, I have seen these but you never know what detail they will throw up, one of the best in this bunch IMO is the one bottom row on the first page second left even though its taken 6 month after the line closed its the only photo that I'v seen that shows the water column and the railings to the bridge over the beck and look beyond the column there's the fire devil brazer still there, please correct me if I'm wrong as I'v not seen to many Caledonian water columns but that one looks very like a LNWR one. Still supposed to be on bed rest after my foot op but did a bit of measuring yesterday (using an LT pannier and two BR mk 1 coaches and four goods wagons) and still think three 3' x 4' boards are the way to go, board one will be from just beyond the engine shed to just before the pier hopefully I can use he edge of the pier as the join line for the boards as getting a convincing join in water is never easy the next will be where the spit of land that juts into the loch towards Killin so again the minimum of water at that point the last board with more scenery leading to a forth board with the fiddle yard. it means quite a lot of compression and licence but setting it in the 1890s to 1910 period means at least there are no 60' coaches and a Killin pug and other locos from that period are very short and as long as the pier loop holds about 4 to 5 wagons it should make for interesting shunting. To get the pier in it means that the station on board one and the line on the first part of board two will be pretty much tight to the back of the boards and the white house over looking the station on the bank behind will be in low relief but board three should let me swing the line forward a bit and get some useful scenery behind it. Although there isn't one between Killin and Loch Tay (though there is near Killin junction at the other end of the line) I might include a cutting and over bridge to act as the break to the fiddle yard I just hope I can get up and about soon as this laying in bed is driving mad keep the chat going chaps at the moment its all I'v got. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 19, 2013 Author Share Posted September 19, 2013 Got the book "The Killin branch railway" by Colin Hogarth today of Amazon, only small but full of some very useful information and some good clear photos. One showing the station in 1931 shows that by this time the signals were the Caley lattice type in the 1886 photo there round wood posts another showing the pier and the goods crane on the end, all in all a very useful book Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 Steep learning curve here chaps so I need to pick your brains again please. I'm still trying to get my head round the Caledonian railway system of numbering there loco classes, its a bit strange to say the least, anyway back to the question. On the Killin branch the two pug's were replaced in about 1898 with two 4-4-0 tank engines designed by Drummond which staid on the line for the next thirty years or so. Their CR numbers were 1177 and 1175, 1177 became LMS number 15103 which was the engine that was shedded at Loch Tay. What class were they as all the 4-4-0 tank engines I can find information on are much bigger. They almost look like a 4-4-0 version of the LBSC Terrier (now that's an idea worth looking into, remove the rear axle extend the chassis slightly make and fit a new rear bogie and make a new cab and bunker from plasticard) so any help you can give this ignorant old Englishman would be very welcome. Regards Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clecklewyke Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Although there isn't one between Killin and Loch Tay (though there is near Killin junction at the other end of the line) I might include a cutting and over bridge to act as the break to the fiddle yard Steve, this all sounds very exciting but... It occurs to me that if you model the line as an eye level diorama with Iain Rice-style proscenium arch and wings the problem of disappearing the line to the fiddle yard evaporates - there are plenty of trees around here, so just let the line hide behind trees as the train goes off-stage. If there was an over-bridge, where would the road go to?! And don't forget to include a model of me trying hard not to capsize a dinghy. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flubrush Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Steep learning curve here chaps so I need to pick your brains again please. I'm still trying to get my head round the Caledonian railway system of numbering there loco classes, its a bit strange to say the least, anyway back to the question. On the Killin branch the two pug's were replaced in about 1898 with two 4-4-0 tank engines designed by Drummond which staid on the line for the next thirty years or so. Their CR numbers were 1177 and 1175, 1177 became LMS number 15103 which was the engine that was shedded at Loch Tay. What class were they as all the 4-4-0 tank engines I can find information on are much bigger. They almost look like a 4-4-0 version of the LBSC Terrier (now that's an idea worth looking into, remove the rear axle extend the chassis slightly make and fit a new rear bogie and make a new cab and bunker from plasticard) so any help you can give this ignorant old Englishman would be very welcome. Regards Steve I think you mean 0-4-4 tank locos. :-) This was the 171 class which Drummond designed in 1883 - distinctive for their small size and solid disc bogie wheels. He did design a 4-4-0 tank locomotive, but that was for the North British before he moved to the Caledonian. Lambie designed a 4-4-0 tank after Drummond left the Caledonian - the 1 class - but it was larger and was intended for suburban underground lines. I sympathise with your problems with the indentification of Caledonian locomotive classes. I believe they took the first available vacant number to identify the class and succeeding numbers in the class might not run in sequence. The 171 class numbers were 171 - 178 and 228 - 231 for the 1883 batch and 222 - 227 for the 1888 batch. It's worth getting a hold of a copy of "Forty Years of Caledonian Locomotives 1882 - 1922" by H.J. Campbell Cornwell if you want a good reference for Caledonian locomotives. It's now out of print, but usually readily available on second hand web sites. I've just checked and Amazon and Abebooks have copies starting at around £7.00. Jim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 Thanks Jim your right it is the 171 class I just had a look on wikipedia ok not always the most correct place to look but until I can stock up on book etc. its all I have. 4-4-0.... Doh!...... how stupid I mean how long have I been doing this, your right it should have been 0-4-4 in my defence I thought the 171 class was an earlier but same sized version of the lg 439 class etc. which always seem to be the ones in all the photos I see on the web. I'll order a copy of that book the wife was only just asking me if I had an ideas for Christmas yet so I can add that to the list. Ian your right too I should keep it simple and as you say just let it run off behind a thick clump of trees if I had used a bridge it would have been just an occupation over bridge so no road would have been needed. as the track at the station would have to run quite close to the back of the base board that is taking the front as being the Loch side so as to make enough room for the pier I was going to swing the line in a bit to the middle of the board on the left (looking from the front) to get a bit of scenery behind it as the loch was starting to narrow at this point so the end board would have very little of the lock on it so having a wing swinging back wouldn't really work. Oh and don't worry I will put you in a little dingy on the loch. a nice old Victorian sloop with you in a striped blazer and straw boater hat (and I mean it - don't forget this will be set about 1900) Keep your ideas coming chaps I've just down loaded some track plan stencels so will get some stock out and have a bit of a check on the room I've got to play with. Regards Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 Hi Jim just orded that book of Amazon cheers Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flubrush Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Steve, If you really want a lot of information on the Caledonian then it is well worth joining the Caledonian Railway Society - http://www.crassoc.org.uk/cra/index.php They have a forum for members which I believe is also "read only" for non-members, so you might get some idea of the information you might get by having a look at that. http://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/ Jim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted September 21, 2013 Author Share Posted September 21, 2013 Well I'm in hogs heaven as DocJacob copied me a load of stuff on Loch Tay and its just arrived - cheers mate its great most of it I've not seen before, the plans of the engine shed and station as well as the views of the front of the station and shed buildings will be a great help (never seen the front of the building before) Thats also the clearest view of the ground frame I've ever seen all usefull stuff. I noticed in the text the writer says the Loch Tay had at one time its own signal box so far I've found no evidence that this ever existed though in reading up on the Calidonian I have seen other ground frames discribed as signal boxes some just having a shed built around the frame. I dont think there was ever one here unless anyone knows otherwise. Any way thanks again I'm just off to have another read. Regards Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted September 22, 2013 Share Posted September 22, 2013 Well I'm in hogs heaven as DocJacob copied me a load of stuff on Loch Tay and its just arrived - cheers mate its great most of it I've not seen before, the plans of the engine shed and station as well as the views of the front of the station and shed buildings will be a great help (never seen the front of the building before) Thats also the clearest view of the ground frame I've ever seen all usefull stuff. I noticed in the text the writer says the Loch Tay had at one time its own signal box so far I've found no evidence that this ever existed though in reading up on the Calidonian I have seen other ground frames discribed as signal boxes some just having a shed built around the frame. I dont think there was ever one here unless anyone knows otherwise. Any way thanks again I'm just off to have another read. Regards Steve I think the signalbox is the small shed-like structure on the line curving off to the pier which is visible in the 1886 photo appearing in several books (eg the two Callander and Oban histories by Thomas and Fryer respectively). The Caley 1915 appendix lists block posts on the line as Killin Junction East, Killin, and Loch Tay, using a single train staff marked Killin Junction East-Loch Tay. Alexander & Nicoll's Register of Scottish Signalboxes lists the signalbox wothout opening date, closing 25 Feb 19291 June 1929 for bridge reconstruction, then closing again for good on 1 Sep 1935 when the branch was converted to one engine in steam operation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted September 22, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 22, 2013 signalbox is shown on the 1900 OS map linked to and shown above: http://maps.nls.uk/view/82898586#zoom=6&lat=5618&lon=6633&layers=BT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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