BR Maroon Mk1 - crests and 'No Smoking' triangles

[Metr0Land]

I've just started worked on the first of my Hachette Mk1's and realise my knowledge is lacking in a couple of areas.

 

(Assume this is for maroon Mk1's in the Home Counties 1960-62 if it makes any difference, mainly on LMR)

 

a/ The application of cicrcular coach crests on the lower body sides seems indiscriminate.  Most of the pics I can find seem to show  very few maroon Mk1's in a rake have crests at this time.  Is this correct?

 

b/ On the Hachette coach which compartments were most likely to have red 'no Smoking' triangles?

 

Thanks

[Il Grifone]

a/ The crests were originally intended for named trains, but by the early sixties would have got mixed up.

 

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

(Scroll down to "BR Lettering of Coaching Stock")

 

b/  Originally the two compartments next to the centre corridor (or the separate saloon of two bays at the end remote from the toilets on an open second).

 

By the mid eighties, the three compartments next to the toilets had also become non-smoking.

[uax6]

I'm guessing that the crest only appeared on 1st class carriages (in much the same way as the LMS crest only appeared on 1sts..

 

Andy G

[Metr0Land]

a/ The crests were originally intended for named trains, but by the early sixties would have got mixed up.

 

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

(Scroll down to "BR Lettering of Coaching Stock")

 

b/ I'll check and get back.

 

Thanks.  Actually the page you pointed to gives some diagrams which include smoking/no-smoking diagrams.

 

Interestingly I have a Bachmann SO in red/cream (which is naturally a diff diagram from the Hachette) and the model has 2 N/S bays whereas the diagram only shows one.  I realise this could have changed over time and with passenger demands (I don't think they had customers in those days).

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Metroland

 

"BR Emblem drawing No. D.V.97.

Required on motor vehicles of multi-unit electric and diesel trains.

Also loco hauled vehicles running in named trains.

This emblem should be placed on the bodyside as neare as possible to the centre of the vehicle whilst preserving the blance of the lettering, etc."

page i of "Lettering and numbering of coaching stock"http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRCoachLetteringIssue.pdf

 

That is what was laid down, but in practice did not always happen. Many named trains did have coaches with the emblem, some did not. The WR chocolate and cream coaches were only supposed to be for named trains, therefore they should all have the emblem. There were chocolate and cream coaches without the emblem. Trains were reformed from time to time which meant coaches with emblems ended up on ordinary trains. Added to this the LMR seemed keen on bunging it on any old coach at random which passed through works. On the SR the only Mk 1 coaches with the emblem were on the Royal Wessex train but when this formation was broken up they appeared in various trains. On the BR coaching stock Yahoo group, http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRCoachingStock/ there was quit a long discussion on these emblems. A group well worth joining.

 

The non smoking triange was applied to the two compartments either side of the central door on Mk1 SK coaches when new. As time went by so more compartments were made non smoking. It would not appear on the windows of the corridor side of the coach, but would be on the on the corridor compartment window which could not be obscured by the siding of the compartment door. See page 4 of the Lettering and Numbering book in the link above.

[YK 50A]

Here we go... 

 

Il Grifone got this spot on!  But not only did coaches get mixed up and transferred, apart from the SR and WR, the application of roundels on maroon coaches became more widespread in the 1960s.

 

I've been researching this and it's a thankless task as coaches weren't often the primary subject of the photographer.  What I can say is that E(?)24477 (1969), NE25838 (1966), E25024 (1967), NE24225 (1967) and E24379 (1969) all had roundels.  NB, as per the photograph, E24379 has the roundel in a non standard position on the corridor side at least.  Also, NE25838 was built with Commonwealth bogies, not BR1s as fitted to the Hachette coaches.  One further complication is whether an individual coach had roundels applied or removed (or neither) if and when the coach ends were painted maroon.

 

With regard to the triangular no smoking signs, they were applied (initially at least) in the middle of the window below the ventilators on the compartment side, in the compartment on each side of the centre door.  There were no "no smoking" signs on the corridor windows, but they were applied to each of the internal windows on either side of the sliding compartment door.  If you intend glazing them...

 

I hope that helps - I shall be watching the thread develop with interest!

 

Alun

 

*** EDIT - spelling again ***

[Il Grifone]

I've edited my earlier post to include the no smoking compartments (originally only two compartments or seating bays per coach - the fifties

and sixties were lived in a fog of cigarette smoke!).

 

The crests apeared on both first and second class stock. There is a discussion on this subject on the yahoo BR coaching stock group.

[RuthlessRob]

Hi Metroland

 

"BR Emblem drawing No. D.V.97.

Required on motor vehicles of multi-unit electric and diesel trains.

Also loco hauled vehicles running in named trains.

This emblem should be placed on the bodyside as neare as possible to the centre of the vehicle whilst preserving the blance of the lettering, etc."

page i of "Lettering and numbering of coaching stock"http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRCoachLetteringIssue.pdf

 

That is what was laid down, but in practice did not always happen. Many named trains did have coaches with the emblem, some did not. The WR chocolate and cream coaches were only supposed to be for named trains, therefore they should all have the emblem. There were chocolate and cream coaches without the emblem. Trains were reformed from time to time which meant coaches with emblems ended up on ordinary trains. Added to this the LMR seemed keen on bunging it on any old coach at random which passed through works. On the SR the only Mk 1 coaches with the emblem were on the Royal Wessex train but when this formation was broken up they appeared in various trains. On the BR coaching stock Yahoo group, http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRCoachingStock/ there was quit a long discussion on these emblems. A group well worth joining.

 

The non smoking triange was applied to the two compartments either side of the central door on Mk1 SK coaches when new. As time went by so more compartments were made non smoking. It would not appear on the windows of the corridor side of the coach, but would be on the on the corridor compartment window which could not be obscured by the siding of the compartment door. See page 4 of the Lettering and Numbering book in the link above.

Brilliant links, many thanks, they're very useful as I'm "doing up" some mk1s.

[Il Grifone]

Thanks.  Actually the page you pointed to gives some diagrams which include smoking/no-smoking diagrams.

 

Interestingly I have a Bachmann SO in red/cream (which is naturally a diff diagram from the Hachette) and the model has 2 N/S bays whereas the diagram only shows one.  I realise this could have changed over time and with passenger demands (I don't think they had customers in those days).

 

AFAIIK there was a separate saloon consisting of two bays (ie 2 x 8 seats) designated for non-smoking. The Peco interior has an interior wall here. The diagram number only refers to the interior and the roof ventilators, as externally they shared a body shell. Originally in crimson and cream pre-1956 they were, of course third corridor/opens (TK/TO), though they changed only in name.

 

The Barrowmore diagrams date from the eighties as far as I can see and show the diagrams updated with less smoking accommodation.

 

You are right, we were passengers back then. 'Customers' is some modern PC rubbish! To be pedantic (again!), how could you be a customer of something you part owned?

[YK 50A]

Thanks.  Actually the page you pointed to gives some diagrams which include smoking/no-smoking diagrams.

 

Interestingly I have a Bachmann SO in red/cream (which is naturally a diff diagram from the Hachette) and the model has 2 N/S bays whereas the diagram only shows one.  I realise this could have changed over time and with passenger demands (I don't think they had customers in those days).

 

Just a word of warning regarding going by the diagrams alone.  I cannot find a photograph showing the corridor side of a no smoking compartment on any Mk1 where only one of the internal windows has a no smoking sign.  Both internal windows have signs and no window would have been "obscured" by the sliding door in any case.  The sliding door also had a window, although pull down blinds were fitted to all.

 

For example and relatively recently, Bachmann incorrectly fitted BSO roof ventilators on their Mk2 BFKs.  They went just from the diagram, which was incorrect when compared to the real thing.

 

Alun