How to signal this layout

[ColHut]

G'day guys.

 

After some time time I bought my son a train set.  At least I'm sure it was for him

Anyway It started with a simple oval with some extra track to make it double track and a few bits and pieces on a 6'x4'.

 

With atts and dets it is now about 7'x 41/2' or so.  Whilst recognising this was a starter set it has grown well beyond original ideas.  Down the track we are looking at a much longer and narrower end to end.  Until then We have worked within the following constraints.

 

Board cannot be made bigger

doble oval track to watch the trains moving (especailly the Flying Scotsman).

branchline for some small engine mixed work and run arounds.

space for at least three long coaches on the main platforms

goods yard and turntable.

 

The below layout is as set up.  There is a 3D snapshot (although the terrain interference is greatly exagerated by the software).  The branch line sits on a 1 in 40 bank. Conceptually I imagined (rather after the fact!) that it be treated as an end to end layout with the track starting to the east of the main line platforms, continuing through the tunnel meeting the branch line junction with mainline goods yards off the down main.  I have attached a jpeg of the layout stretched out for easier thinking.

 

I would love to know how to signal this as best as I can within the space constraints  (thus the use of the double slip and triple point).

Period is really LNER late 30s. (Although a GWR tank and Southern 'Schools' class lurk in the sheds as well at the moment!)

 

I imagine the branchline running as one engine in steam, and controled only at the final station if required, the two intermediate platforms being barely halts.  I am guessing that all the points could be locally controled with shunting signals not withstanding i have drawn full signalls (6 to 8).

 

I have set only a stop where the branch meets the main (3) , as movement against the flow onto the up main in not permitted.  Perhaps it should have a distant for the station beyond?

I am guessing that (5) protecting the down main would have 'norma'l as the line to the down main, and maybe a subsidiary signal for the turntable.

 

I have not included what I guess would be a myriad of ground signals for the yards.

 

In general I suspect that freight would normally only be worked on the down line.  But it is possble to back and fill from the up, although I really should put and engine-sized head shunt  just west of point (5) (fitted for but not with at this stage!) 

 

How many signal boxes would I need?

 

How can I improve the signalling?

 

I would appreciate any assistance in this matter.

 

reagrds

 

Colin

 

[ColHut]

Errr *Bump*.  'Tis very dark here and would be grateful for any illumination.  Was the question too broad?

 

regards

[The Stationmaster]

Errr *Bump*.  'Tis very dark here and would be grateful for any illumination.  Was the question too broad?

 

regards

Not really.  The problem lies in avoiding forests of signals on a layout of this sort where a lot of railway is in a relatively small area and the second point relates to what make of signals you intend to use and how you want to work them (if you want to work them that is - bearing in mind that your son might want to do that?).  So as usual with signalling questions are answered with questions - sorry.

 

But progressing beyond that what you have drawn in is pretty good with only one area that's rather unclear and that is the branchline where it appears trains are signalled in one direction but not the other (except at the junction) - you need, I think, to put that right first and it's clear that you have sufficient understanding of the basics to do so.  My only other query with what you have done so far relates to the use of full size running arms to read into sidings - e.g the turntable - but you might prefer that to having nothing at all?

 

And yes, steer clear of ground signal is I think a sensible policy.

 

Signalboxes - one by the level crossing, one at the branch junction, and one at the branch station.

[ColHut]

Dear Mike,

 

Many thanks for your comments. 

I intend to control the main points at least and all non-shunting signalss from a lever frame swithch set up, probably using Hornby-type lever switches.  Coloured appropriately I hope

 

In looking at the double slip from the branch line[3] I looked at a number of plans, and they seemed often to have only a single stop before the junction.  I supposed that the signals from the branch would be locked so that a train could only move onto the down main in this case.  Would this be okay?

 

As for the branchline.  You are correct.  I signalled it one way and then stopped. as I wondered if they would signal it at all like that or would there just be ground signals where one engine in steam was operating.  I'm guessing that the two halts befor the station in the loop would not even have starter signals.  If the signals for the junction remained I would prefer to use short signal arms for the sidings (Likewise for the turntable).

 

I did think that perhaps the whole area without the branchline might be one block.  I think perhaps lose the splitting distant [1], and add a shunting signal (near the 'n' on 'down' so that a rake can back onto the main down from the yard, then move forward and across to the up main through the double slip, and back into the station.

 

Probably remove the distant from [4] and place it  well to the rear too.

 

Does this all make sense?

 

regards

 

Colin

[phil-b259]

One very big problem is the distinct lack of a run round for the branch service in the mainline station area. In the modern era, with unit operation this is not so much of a problem however it would be very unusual for a steam era track layout not to have some sort of provision (even if the branch trains were normally auto coaches). Said provision could be as simple as propelling the branch train back into the goods yard to run round in there but signalling provision will obviously be affected by this, and looking at your plan though I don't see an easy way of doing it. The other thing to consider is once a train has arrived from the branch in the DN platform of the main station - how does it get back onto the branh again - at the moment this move is not signalled and neither is the option of sending a branch train into the 'UP' platform (i.e. wrong direction working) to allow it to take advantage of the 'UP' signals giving access to the branch.

 

As regards the goods yard / engine servicing area, access to or from these areas will be via shunt discs or miniature / ringed arms (depending on company) - not full sized arms (though no doubt someone on here will be able to produce some exceptions to the norm)

 

The only other observation is that there is very little point having your splitting distant signal on the 'UP' where it is - the actual junction signal will be in view by that point - It would be better being moved back to the tunnel entrance on the 'UP'  Also just be careful with the signal placement round the junction (I know the planning software may be to blame) because as drawn the signals are far to close to the point tips or leave insufficient space to between a train waiting at said signal and a crossing move from the branch say.

[ColHut]

Dear Phil,

 

looks like our posts crossed. 

 

Thankyou for your observations.

 

The lack of a run around at the station is tricky.  I can reverse in to the goods yard, put an engine sized shunt ahdead of the curve leading into the  turntable.  Either way a relieving engine would then be necessary to  back and fill onto the up main and reverse down to te station.  I was trying with a might and main to avoid extra points in the station area.  

 

Would it be acceptable to run from the branch the wrong way (if signalled correctly) to the up main platform?  Trouble there is the engine is still at the wrong end.

 

So perhaps I put a loop in at the station permitting the  the down train to be run around, then pushed back and forward on the up main.  Presumably shunting signals would be used for this?

 

regards and thanks

 

Colin

[The Stationmaster]

Dear Mike,

 

Many thanks for your comments. 

I intend to control the main points at least and all non-shunting signalss from a lever frame swithch set up, probably using Hornby-type lever switches.  Coloured appropriately I hope

 

In looking at the double slip from the branch line[3] I looked at a number of plans, and they seemed often to have only a single stop before the junction.  I supposed that the signals from the branch would be locked so that a train could only move onto the down main in this case.  Would this be okay?

 

As for the branchline.  You are correct.  I signalled it one way and then stopped. as I wondered if they would signal it at all like that or would there just be ground signals where one engine in steam was operating.  I'm guessing that the two halts befor the station in the loop would not even have starter signals.  If the signals for the junction remained I would prefer to use short signal arms for the sidings (Likewise for the turntable).

 

I did think that perhaps the whole area without the branchline might be one block.  I think perhaps lose the splitting distant [1], and add a shunting signal (near the 'n' on 'down' so that a rake can back onto the main down from the yard, then move forward and across to the up main through the double slip, and back into the station.

 

Probably remove the distant from [4] and place it  well to the rear too.

 

Does this all make sense?

 

regards

 

Colin

Colin,

 

One or two choices for you then taking into account Phil's comments as well.  Firstly you are dealing with massively compressed distances hence Phils' comment about the splitting distant for the branch junction - whatever you do will be wrong because of the amount of distance compression so I think you are best advised to do it the way you want to do it and put up with folk like me telling you it wouldn't be like that.  The (better looking=more prototypical) alternative is to completely omit that splitting distant or incorporate it into the stop signal protecting the level crossing (which would mean kit building or hefty hacking about of Hornby signals).

 

Your signalling of the junction is quite ok - although as Phil has observed the signal are a bit on the tight side - there should be space for another train to cross the junction (on its own route of course!)when one is standing at any of the signals.

 

The branch intermediate halts would not have signals - they have no need for them but you could possibly include an Outer Home Signal for the junction if you wanted to - in 4mm scale it would be 17ft 6ins from the signal at the junction so again you will need to compress the distance

 

The branch terminus needs some signals for trains going the other way - just a couple of extra stop signals and I would make No.7 just a simple straight post signal with one arm - it will look more realistic on a branch.  Incidentally as far as running-round the branch train at the double line station is concerned don't worry - just run it past the station  and reverse it into the engine shed area, put an engine on the other end, reverse it back out of the sidings and crossover to the other line then back to the station to return from there up the branch; lots of fun in store getting your lad to work out that move or asking visitors 'playing trains' to solve it without running any trains in the wrong direction.  Have fun.

[ColHut]

Thanks Mike,

 

I'll do some redrafting.

 

as far as running-round the branch train at the double line station is concerned don't worry - just run it past the station  and reverse it into the engine shed area, put an engine on the other end, reverse it back out of the sidings and crossover to the other line then back to the station to return from there up the branch; lots of fun in store getting your lad to work out that move or asking visitors 'playing trains' to solve it without running any trains in the wrong direction.  Have fun.

 

I like this idea but it would be somewhat cheating as conceptually the main line is broken east of the station.  I'll see if I can slip in some points in the station and put in a small loop and post it up tomorrow. 

 

Funny how you miss the obvious until its pointed out to you!  

 

 

I would make No.7 just a simple straight post signal with one arm

 

 

 

So this would be a simple stop signal then?

 

regards and thanks to you both.  It is really helpful.

 

Colin

[ColHut]

Okay considering some of the very helpful comments above.

 

I have added a loop into the main station to enable the branch line passenger to run around at the station and then back and fill the passenger coach to the up main. I suppose (not marked) some disc type ground signals would be used. There only needs to be space for one large or two very small coaches to be run around as the branch station and halts cannot handle anything larger. Changes in blue

 

On the up line

11 is the home ('somewhere' behind is the distant).

12 is the starter

2 is the advanced starter

 

On the down

4 is the outer home (with a distant 'somewhere' behind)

10 is the inner home

9 is the starter

 

On the branch line

3 is an outer home? Permitting travel only onto the main down

behind (in advance?) is a distant. I suppose it would likely be a fixed distant.

6 could be a stop with a subsidiary for the siding or just a ground signal . It should have (oops not shown) a stop signal for protection from the other side

7 is a stop signal, and opposite is the starter for the platform

8 is a stop signal and the end of the station.

 

5 is either a single post with normal set for the main and a subsidiary for the turntable or perhaps a dolly for the subsidiary.

 

Your comments are welcome.

 

As I understand it you only have one distant for a block section, and it signifies that the line is clear all the way through the block. Is that correct? Or was it through the next stop signal only?

 

Regards

 

Colin

[The Stationmaster]

 

Okay considering some of the very helpful comments above.

 

I have added a loop into the main station to enable the branch line passenger to run around at the station and then back and fill the passenger coach to the up main. I suppose (not marked) some disc type ground signals would be used. There only needs to be space for one large or two very small coaches to be run around as the branch station and halts cannot handle anything larger. Changes in blue

 

On the up line

11 is the home ('somewhere' behind is the distant).

12 is the starter

2 is the advanced starter

 

On the down

4 is the outer home (with a distant 'somewhere' behind)

10 is the inner home

9 is the starter

 

On the branch line

3 is an outer home? Permitting travel only onto the main down

behind (in advance?) is a distant. I suppose it would likely be a fixed distant.

6 could be a stop with a subsidiary for the siding or just a ground signal . It should have (oops not shown) a stop signal for protection from the other side

7 is a stop signal, and opposite is the starter for the platform

8 is a stop signal and the end of the station.

 

5 is either a single post with normal set for the main and a subsidiary for the turntable or perhaps a dolly for the subsidiary.

 

Your comments are welcome.

 

As I understand it you only have one distant for a block section, and it signifies that the line is clear all the way through the block. Is that correct? Or was it through the next stop signal only?

 

Regards

 

Colin

one branch one main v3.14mirrorBphase 1.2.jpg

 

A few things to sort out here then Colin - first off you've put in two facing crossovers - they should be trailing crossovers.

 

Re 11/12/2  Well if you have another signalbox at the junction then 2 is its Home Signal

 

On the branch 3 is the Home Signal, the Outer Home would be where you have added the Distant Signal.

 

The points at Signal 6 would most likely be ground frame worked - so no real need for 6 although if you insist you could should do it the way you now suggest.

 

The branch terminus is ok as you suggest it (there are other ways of doing it but the way you have done it is acceptable and looks ok.

 

5 could be either of the two you suggest.

 

You have, in its simplest form one Distant Signal which applies to all the stop signals for that line in the same direction worked from the same signalbox - the Distant cannot be cleared until all the stop signals have been cleared.

[ColHut]

Dear Mike thanks for the above.

 

Having re-read the pages at Thesignalbox.org.  I can see I was still struggling with some concepts. I just twigged that no one person really controls the section betwween the last stop signal from one station and the first stop signal from the next, rather they its shared:  one offers, and if clear, the other accepts.

 

I have amended the layout as suggested with trailing points.

 

As it stands I think I would have:

 

Lower signal box

On the up line

11 is the home ('somewhere' behind is the distant).

12 is the starter, and (cannot resist, a spliting distant combined - a fun project)

 

On the down

10 is the home

9 is the starter

 

On the upper (Junction) signal box

 

2 is home/starter for the up/Branch

4 is the home/starter on the down (with a combined distant distant for 10

3 is home from the branch permitting travel only onto the main down

5 is either a single post with normal (starter) set for the down main and a subsidiary for the turntable or perhaps a dolly for the subsidiary.

13 is an outer home from the branch.

 

Mike - Why would you need an outer home there rather than a distant?

 

6 could be a stop with a subsidiary for the siding or just a ground signal . It should have (oops still not shown) a stop signal for protection from the other side

7 is a stop signal, and opposite is the starter for the platform

8 is a stop signal and the end of the station.

 

I suppose the passenger train for the branch would assemble in the yard and be belled forward ('empty coaching stock?'.  after acceptance it would arrive at the down main platform,  be run around and then pushed beyond the eastern crossover and pulled forward onto the up main.  From there it can proceed wherever.

 

I understand that for a transient shunting move if going beyond the the station limits this ought be signalled to the station in advance or behind as appropriate .  Even with the station limits as there is no real clearing point this ought be signalled to the other boxes.  maybe , as the trains would be very short and the move stransient, (unless waiting for passengers?) this could be allowed under a block specific exemption.

 

regards

 

Colin

[The Stationmaster]

Dear Mike thanks for the above.

 

Having re-read the pages at Thesignalbox.org.  I can see I was still struggling with some concepts. I just twigged that no one person really controls the section betwween the last stop signal from one station and the first stop signal from the next, rather they its shared:  one offers, and if clear, the other accepts.

 

I have amended the layout as suggested with trailing points.

 

As it stands I think I would have:

 

Lower signal box

On the up line

11 is the home ('somewhere' behind is the distant).

12 is the starter, and (cannot resist, a spliting distant combined - a fun project)

 

On the down

10 is the home

9 is the starter

 

On the upper (Junction) signal box

 

2 is home/starter for the up/Branch

4 is the home/starter on the down (with a combined distant distant for 10

3 is home from the branch permitting travel only onto the main down

5 is either a single post with normal (starter) set for the down main and a subsidiary for the turntable or perhaps a dolly for the subsidiary.

13 is an outer home from the branch.

 

Mike - Why would you need an outer home there rather than a distant?

 

6 could be a stop with a subsidiary for the siding or just a ground signal . It should have (oops still not shown) a stop signal for protection from the other side

7 is a stop signal, and opposite is the starter for the platform

8 is a stop signal and the end of the station.

 

I suppose the passenger train for the branch would assemble in the yard and be belled forward ('empty coaching stock?'.  after acceptance it would arrive at the down main platform,  be run around and then pushed beyond the eastern crossover and pulled forward onto the up main.  From there it can proceed wherever.

 

I understand that for a transient shunting move if going beyond the the station limits this ought be signalled to the station in advance or behind as appropriate .  Even with the station limits as there is no real clearing point this ought be signalled to the other boxes.  maybe , as the trains would be very short and the move stransient, (unless waiting for passengers?) this could be allowed under a block specific exemption.

 

regards

 

Colin

one branch one main v3.14mirrorBphase 1.2.jpg

A number of items in there Colin but all, I hope, fairly straightforward but first some basics -

 

1. A signalbox on a line worked by most of the older block systems controls the sections of line in rear of it although the signal to enter that section is operated by the signalbox in rear.  The reason for doing it like that is very simple - only the Signalman where a  train leaves a block section can check that the train is complete with tail lamp and really has cleared the section - so he has control of that section.

 

2. Having an Outer Home Signal creates what is known as a Clearing Point clear of the junction - thus a train from the branch can approach the Outer Home Signal while other trains are signalled to cross the junction on the other lines - it gives you a little bit of prototypical signalling practice in a spot where it makes sense to have that bit of flexiibility.

 

3. Yes, an empty passenger trains would be asked forward ('belled' as you put it) as an empty coaching stock train (ecs).  Empty trains could run in one of two different classes but yours would definitely be an ordinary ecs.

 

4. Any movement into a block section would have to be block signalled - end of story  (except for certain emergency situations).  The reason for doing this, even with a shunting movement, is to ensure that the movement is given the protection afforded by the block system and to prevent other trains being signalled into it.

 

Signals all look good however the distant signal below signal 4 at the junction signalbox is the distant for  10 and 9, not just for 10.

Ideally your station signalbox should be by the level crossing.

[Grovenor]

Personally I would dump signal 6, its at an intermediate halt on a one engine in steam branch, there would not be a signal box there so no-one to operate the signals and point unless the train is there. The ground frame would be locked by a key on the single line staff. To shunt it one of the train crew would unlock the ground frame and handsignal the moves as needed. The signals could be operated from the ground frame and stand normally clear with the ground frame locked, but really they serve no purpose so would not be provided. There can only be one train on the branch.  The signals and box at the terminus are more acceptable as they need working for every train, not just the daily goods so the bobby would have something to do if the service is reasonable frequent.

Regards

Keith

[ColHut]

Thanks Keith.

 

Such points  would be fitted with point indicators of some kind?

 

Alternatively could the signals be controlled by a small cabin at the terminus on the branch with maybe a telephone or whistle being required to call attention (although I suppose it does depend on quite how far away it is)?

 

regards

 

Colin

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Keith.

 

Such points  would be fitted with point indicators of some kind?

 

Alternatively could the signals be controlled by a small cabin at the terminus on the branch with maybe a telephone or whistle being required to call attention (although I suppose it does depend on quite how far away it is)?

 

regards

 

Colin

No - just an outdoor two lever ground me Colin, just like the sort of thing shown below although Regional styles varied for both the frame and any adjacent equipment cupboards -

 

[ColHut]

Thanks very much Mike.  Why don't the points get point indicators though.  I would have thought it helped the driver see clearly which way they were set?    (Who knows what way the last driver ledft the points?)

 

I take it the equipment cupboard would hold a telephone in case of problems.  As an aside, were signals and points ever controled remotely, 'on demand' via a whistle or telephone call from such a cabinet to a remote signal box?  sorry for if this seems silly.

 

regards

 

Colin

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks very much Mike.  Why don't the points get point indicators though.  I would have thought it helped the driver see clearly which way they were set?    (Who knows what way the last driver ledft the points?)

 

I take it the equipment cupboard would hold a telephone in case of problems.  As an aside, were signals and points ever controled remotely, 'on demand' via a whistle or telephone call from such a cabinet to a remote signal box?  sorry for if this seems silly.

 

regards

 

Colin

The 'system' would ensure that the points were correctly set for through trains because the ground frame would either be released by the Train Staff or token (you can see the key slot on the back of the blue lever - that's one way of doing it - or a local key could be released electrically from a supervising signalbox through a key release instrument and then used to unlock the frame.

 

Most ground frames of this sort would have had an equipment cupboard of some sort (patterns varied over the BR Regions) for a 'phone and possibly for a key release instrument and in some cases a small hut housing a token instrument if a train could be 'shut in' the siding(s) clear of the running line(s).

 

Engine whistle signals were sent in code depending on what the Driver wanted - sometimes just a warning, sometmes to indicate the engine was clear of points or that it was standing at a signal and wanted to go in a particular direction. There were also handsignals used by Guards and Shunters to indicate to a Signalman that a movement was clear of points.

 

Points in running lines are worked from a signalbox or groundframe - modern (or indeed quite old) power signalling allows points to be worked from miles away - for example Leeds is worked from York - but nowadays communication has to be by 'phone or radio, not whistles or shouting or handsignals.

[RJS1977]

Hmm... not so sure about those station crossovers as the one on the left shortens the length of platform available for branch trains considerably and would require a signal halfway along the platform (though Aberystwyth had one like that!)

 

Alternatively, would there be room to put a double slip on the top of the right hand crossover linking it to the goods line? That way the branch train arrives in the inner platform, drops off its passengers, pulls the empty coaches into the goods line, runs round then draws them into the outer platform.

 

That would also permit a down goods train to re-enter the yard without reversing on the main line, and would permit up goods trains to leave the yard (would require a facing crossover at the top of the plan and possibly moving the yard exit points back by one track section to ease the transition on what would now be a ladder crossover).

[ColHut]

Thanks RJS

 

 

not so sure about those station crossovers as the one on the left shortens the length of platform available for branch trains considerably and would require a signal halfway along the platform (though Aberystwyth had one like that!)

 

It sure does, but fortunately the branch  platforms are restricted to one long or two 4-wheel workman's coaches So I can just get away with it!  The only problems are if I were to run a special mixed passenger and goods set.  Although even then I could shunt the train in halves.  Space is cripplingly short.  Not marked would be ground shunting discs for the relevant paired points for working back across the points.  The signal at 9 gets a shunt ahead signal, and there is just room for an advanced starter beyond (not marked).

 

Alternatively, would there be room to put a double slip on the top of the right hand crossover linking it to the goods line? That way the branch train arrives in the inner platform, drops off its passengers, pulls the empty coaches into the goods line, runs round then draws them into the outer platform.

 

That and your following remarks would be great.  A double slip would nearly fit.  Unfortunately the layout is conceptually not a circuit, it is really imagined as set out as in the stretched out version at the top of the thread so this would be a bit of a cheat as the station would be on both sides of the junction and goods yard if you get my drift.    The arriving down goods, whether from branch or the station 'behind' on the main just back straight into the yard without getting to the station.

 

I hope this makes sense   and thankyou for your constructive comments.

 

Colin