New products for 00-SF -- and 5 pages of silly arguments about it

[martin_wynne]

See: http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=346_375_376

 

See: http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28398

 

 

(this is for info -- I have no connection with either business)

 

Martin.

[blueeighties]

Very interesting indeed.

[backofanenvelope]

Hmmm, yet another distraction... thx Martin.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Martin 

 

On the Model Rail forum you commented on the crossing angles, mainly it is not 1 in 8. I found the angle of the diamond is 1 in 5 and the other crossing for the slip are 1 in 8.

 

 

The concept is an excellent idea for those looking for point kits.

[alangdance]

DO WE HAVE ANY IDEAS  WHAT THE PRICES WILL BE.

 

ALAN

[Rowsley17D]

Has anybody any experience of ordering stuff from DCC in Australia? I am wanting 00-SF gauges and although C&L are going to stock them there's no sign of them yet.

[Dominion]

Has anybody any experience of ordering stuff from DCC in Australia? I am wanting 00-SF gauges and although C&L are going to stock them there's no sign of them yet.

I have used lots of DCC Concepts loco decoders, cobalt switch motors, accessory decoders, rolling road, loco lamps etc. All have arrived on time and worked well.

 

I have a question about 00-SF, as I am planning a new layout and thinking about track options. I have a Golden Age 00 A4. It works well on my 30 inch minimum radius peco curves, and the inside curve of peco curved streamline points, also 30 inches. This is tighter than Golden Age had vouched it would work on, so I have felt lucky so far. It now occurs to me that it may not go through 30 inch tunrouts or slips if choose to go 00-SF. Any ideas ?

[Dr.Glum]

Comment for Tom King,

I'm surprised you were OK with a curved Peco point. I measured one up and transferred it to CAD and found the only radius that would fit between the straight bits was about 24 inches. (From memory - might have been 26) I wasn't that surprised - you only have to look at the point and you can see the sharpness of the curve. Another case of the manufacturer quoting what circle the point would fit into rather than the ruling curvature? If you're moving to 00-SF and building your own then might not be an issue, but  . . . .

[martin_wynne]

I have a question about 00-SF, as I am planning a new layout and thinking about track options. I have a Golden Age 00 A4. It works well on my 30 inch minimum radius peco curves, and the inside curve of peco curved streamline points, also 30 inches. This is tighter than Golden Age had vouched it would work on, so I have felt lucky so far. It now occurs to me that it may not go through 30 inch turnouts or slips if choose to go 00-SF. Any ideas ?

 

Hi Tom,

 

00-SF is a derivative of EM. In both cases, 750mm (30") is regarded as the bottom end of the usable range of radii. Below 750mm curves are normally described as "train-set" sizes and you would be better sticking to conventional 00, which has the necessary gauge-widening built in (00-BF).

 

However, 3-point gauge tools are available for 00-SF, see: http://00-sf.org.uk (to be available in future from C&L). These automatically create gauge-widening on sharp curves when track-building, and allow 00-SF to be used for curves below 750mm. This is normally assumed to be for use on branch and secondary lines, in yards and sidings, etc. Whether the widening introduced would be sufficient for a large main-line A4 locomotive you would need to determine by trial and error.

 

Since 00-SF does not require any modification to the wheels, you can mix 00-SF and 00-BF on the same layout. Use 00-SF for the gentler curves, and 00-BF where sharp curves make it necessary. The same check gauge tool is used for both.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

edit for typo

[Rowsley17D]

Hi Tom,

 

00-SF is a derivative of EM. In both cases, 750mm (30") is regarded as the bottom end of the usable range of radii. Below 750mm curves are normally described as "train-set" sizes and you would be better sticking to conventional 00, which has the necessary gauge-widening built in (00-BF).

 

However, 3-point gauge tools are available for 00-SF, see: http://00-sf.org.uk (to be available in future from C&L). These automatically create gauge-widening on sharp curves when track-building, and allow 00-SF to be used for curves below 750mm. This is normally assumed to be for use on branch and secondary lines, in yards and sidings, etc. Whether the widening introduced would be sufficient for a large main-line A4 locomotive you would need to determine by trial and error.

 

Since 00-SF does not require any modification to the wheels, you can mix 00-SF and 00-BF on the same layout. Use 00-SF for the gentler curves, and 00-BF where sharp curves make it necessary. The same check gauge tool is used for both.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

edit for typo

 

 

I hope Martin does not mind me making it clear that you can no longer order 00-SF gauges from www.00-sf.org.uk. I am waiting for C&L to stock them but unable to wait for ever, hence my question about ordering a set of gauges from Australia.

[martin_wynne]

I hope Martin does not mind me making it clear that you can no longer order 00-SF gauges from www.00-sf.org.uk. I am waiting for C&L to stock them but unable to wait for ever, hence my question about ordering a set of gauges from Australia.

 

Hi Jonathan,

 

C&L announced on 10th February this year:

 

"OO SF Gauges - we have taken over the manufacture and distribution of these gauges and have them on order. We are hoping that they will be available from next week."

 

I don't know the current situation, but they can't be far away. Have you asked them?

 

The DCC Concepts 00-SF gauges are not yet listed at: http://www.dccconcepts.com/index_files/DCCgaugetracktool.htm#Track%20gauges so there may be some delay for either.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

edit for typo

[Rowsley17D]

Hi Martin, Pete at C&L has had serious back problems although things seems to have settled down now. Still no sign of the 00-SF gauges though. I would send another email but he is behind with replies and at this stage I don't want to add to the backlog. I may try another email next week to see what the situation is.

[Rowsley17D]

Just received the following email from DCC Concepts in Australia:

 

yes, we have OO-SF gauges. They are exceptionally high quality and tolerances. We are also about to release a wide selection of pre-cut and pre-etched copper-clad to make up all common forms of point-work.

 

3 point gauges (with removable handles) are $AU29.95. two pcs of roller gauges, also with handles, are $24.95. In both cases, local 10% tax is removed for export making the prices  $27.22 and $22.68

 

post TBC, but quite reasonable as they are small items.

 

My order will be going in this weekend.

[martin_wynne]

I don't know the current situation, but they can't be far away. Have you asked them?

 

C&L have posted today:

 

"As well as our own, we will be introducing a new range of standard OO gauges and OO SF gauges this week. Watch out for details over the next couple of days."

[Rowsley17D]

Just when I have been advised that mine are on the way from Australia.

[Dominion]

I was re-watching Norman Soloman's Terriffic Trackwork DVD again last night. He says in the C&L plastic chair section that he is building to 00 fine, but then uses a wider check rail gauge than is used at the flange way at the crossing V, to allow more stock to run well.  I guess this is a different pratice to achieve some of what 00-SF running and visual appearance but at 16.5 gauge if I understand correctly. I guess it is assymetric flange ways, 1mm to improve running and appearance at the crossing v, but wider for the check rails to allow out of the box back to backs. Anyone know what woudl then be done at a crossing or a slip ? Does that create a conflict with this approach ? I suppose building track this way would not use any of the new 00-SF gauges from C&L or DCC Concepts, but teh current normal C&L gauages, except for check rails. Is that correct ? Thanks for any thoughts and experience on this.

[martin_wynne]

He says in the C&L plastic chair section that he is building to 00 fine, but then uses a wider check rail gauge than is used at the flange way at the crossing V, to allow more stock to run well.  I guess this is a different pratice to achieve some of what 00-SF running and visual appearance but at 16.5 gauge if I understand correctly. I guess it is asymmetric flange ways, 1mm to improve running and appearance at the crossing v, but wider for the check rails to allow out of the box back to backs.

 

Hi,

 

Norman is using the equivalent of 00-SF with permanent gauge-widening from 16.2mm to 16.5mm. When you widen the track gauge, the v-crossing flangeway gap (frog gap) remains the same (1.0mm), and the check rail flangeway gap increases by the same amount as the gauge widening, form 1.0mm to 1.3mm. Yes, this makes the flangeways asymmetric.

 

So that the all-important check gauge then remains the same at 15.2mm. Consequently there is no difference to the acceptable range of back-to-backs, it stays the same as for 00-SF (14.4mm for RTR, 14.3mm MIN).

 

If you use the 00-SF gauge tools from C&L (available soon, formerly from Brian Tulley), the check gauge is a separate tool, so it is very easy to do the same as Norman. Set the check rails using the check gauge tool, but set the running rails with an ordinary 00 track gauge (16.5mm). Normally for 00-SF such gauge-widening isn't needed above about 750mm/30" radius, so there is no advantage in following Norman's method unless you are using curves sharper than this. It doesn't make any difference to the acceptable wheel back-to-backs.

 

If you use the 00-SF gauge tools from DCC Concepts, it is more difficult to do because the check gauge is combined into same roller gauge as the track gauge. In my view such multi-slot gauges are all but useless for pointwork, but the trade love them.

 

Assymetric flangeways are fine for plain turnouts, but cause problems for more complex formations. Such as tandem turnouts and parallel wing crossings, where the check rail for one V-crossing merges with the wing rail for another. Obviously that can't happen if the gaps are not the same. Also at K-crossings (at the centre of diamonds and slips) you normally want the narrowest flangeway possible to avoid mis-tracking of the wheels. So for anything more complex than plain turnouts it is better to stick to 00-SF without gauge-widening. Complex formations are not normally constructed on sharp curves, so there is no need for it.

 

Here is this diagram again:

 

 

A is the check gauge. It is the most critical dimension in pointwork. If this dimension is too small, wheels running from left to right can hit the nose of the vee and very likely derail, or at least bump. If this dimension is too large, the wheel backs will bind or jam on the check rail. To make sure it's correct, the check rail is set using check gauge tools. For 00-SF and 00-BF this dimension should be 15.2mm, so you can use the same check gauge tools for both standards.

 

B is the crossing flangeway gap. It's also important. If this dimension is too small, the wheel backs will bind or jam on the wing rail. If this dimension is too large, the gap in front of the nose of the vee will be too wide, and the wheels may drop into it with a bump. This gap is set using a small piece of metal shim called a crossing flangeway gauge shim. For 00-SF it should be 1.0mm thick. For 00-BF it should be 1.3mm thick.

 

C is the track gauge. It shouldn't be less than the specified dimension, but can be wider. It is often widened on sharply curved track to ease the running of long-wheelbase vehicles. The track gauge is normally set using roller gauge tools, or alternatively using a 3-point gauge tool, which automatically widens the track gauge on curves. For 00-SF this dimension shouldn't be less than 16.2mm. For 00-BF it is normally 16.5mm.

 

D is the check rail gap. The width of this gap doesn't matter*, providing it is wider than the wheel flanges. It's whatever you end up with after setting A and C correctly.

 

*But where the check rail is combined with a wing rail in complex formations such as a tandem turnout (i.e. in parallel-wing V-crossings) it must be the same as B. This means that it is not possible to have gauge-widening through such formations.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Dominion]

Many thanks Martin, much appreciated. Yes that is what I had thought from reading yours and other materials. It still makes me wonder what flange way gaps Norman used for that diamond in his video around the knuckle and Vs, as it was 16.5 gauage 00 fine he said, with widened check rail gaps on the turnouts to allow 14.5 b2bs to run too he said. So if I piece things togeteher correctly he must have a workable compromise for the diamond and so perhaps at the diamond he would use symetrical gaps, so wider than than at the turnout wing rails but more narrow than at the turn out check rails.  That would be 00-BF wouldn't it? And be a different set of gauages ? And that combination in the turn out and crossing in his demonstartion would cope with the 14.8 b2b he mentioned and also 14.5 with good running and appearance through the turn out and oo-bf running in the crossing, and allow 16.5 easy joins to flex track ?

Sorry for the novice questions. I need to get started building something to try it and build experience (bf, sf, or this blend) and am just trying to figure out which gauges to get.

[martin_wynne]

I need to get started building something to try it and build experience (bf, sf, or this blend) and am just trying to figure out which gauges to get.

 

The only way to be sure what gauges Norman was using, for what wheels, is to ask him.

 

As for choosing gauge tools, it is not too difficult:

 

1. If you want to use ONLY RTR wheels, with widest range of back-to-backs, and not too concerned about the appearance of the flangeways -- use 00-BF / DOGA Intermediate. Kit wheels will be bumpy. Gauges are available from Markits and DOGA, but NOT from C&L.

 

2. If you want to mix RTR with kit wheels such as Markits, Alan Gibson, Ultrascale, and get good running from all of them as supplied, with improved appearance of the narrower flangeways, and you are willing to reject any rogue RTR wheels which don't comply with the standards -- use 00-SF. Gauges are available from C&L (soon) or DCC Concepts.

 

3. If you want good running from kit wheels but insist on retaining 16.5mm gauge -- use DOGA Fine. Wheels won't run as supplied, they will all have to be widened to 14.8mm back-to-back. Gauges are available from C&L.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Andy Reichert]

Since 00-SF is derived from the flangeway of EM, (eighteen mm (+0.2mm) gauge) I wonder why it was was not labelled SM gauge (sixteen mm (+0.2mm) gauge).

 

At least then it would be more apparent that it uses a different gauge than 00. That would save a lot of head scratching from new people coming across it.

 

Andy

[martin_wynne]

Since 00-SF is derived from the flangeway of EM, (eighteen mm (+0.2mm) gauge) I wonder why it was was not labelled SM gauge (sixteen mm (+0.2mm) gauge).

 

At least then it would be more apparent that it uses a different gauge than 00. That would save a lot of head scratching from new people coming across it.

 

Hi Andy,

 

For years it was called "EM minus 2". I needed a shorter name in Templot so I called it 00-SF (00 Special Fine) -- because folks run 00 models on it. Not calling it 00 would be far more confusing.

 

You are making the common mistake that the track gauge dimension is in some way sacrosanct. Even Network Rail have two gauges currently in use -- 1432mm and 1435mm. 0 gauge in the UK currently has several gauges in use, all prefixed 0-.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Andy Reichert]

Hi Andy,

 

For years it was called "EM minus 2". I needed a shorter name in Templot so I called it 00-SF (00 Special Fine) -- because folks run 00 models on it. Not calling it 00 would be far more confusing.

 

You are making the common mistake that the track gauge dimension is in some way sacrosanct. Even Network Rail have two gauges currently in use -- 1432mm and 1435mm. 0 gauge in the UK currently has several gauges in use, all prefixed 0-.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

For those here who don't know me, I'm a based in the USA, passionate Proto:87 fan. So my idea of what constitiutes "fine scale" wheels and track are numerically somehat different from those expressed here, but that's a personal preference and not a gauge related concern.

 

My practical circumstances are that I have a largish HO ( AKA as "00" for the track gauge) test track for commissioning Proto:87 vehicles, that for the time being has no turnouts installed. Since the gauge for all HO wheels and the exact scale (maybe "finer" by your nomenclature?) P:87 wheels are the same, I can run all my pre-converted and post converted RTR vehicles on the same track, at the same time and even mixed together, which makes identifying and sorting out any vehicle and/or track problems an absolute doddle. And still allows for a good deal of enjoyment all thru the conversion process.

 

Then when all my vehicles are converted, (probably going to be a long drawn out job due to the quantities involved) I won't have to relay any of my track. I can also consider putting some mix of HO and P:87 turnouts in place for temporarily running trains to both standards where the routes won't conflict and merely swap out the crossings and check rails when I'm ready to make that route to the finer standard.

 

Certainly that's not a likely typical UK, "going fine scale" (WTM) scenario, except that I have a bunch of UK vehicles that I can (and do) run occasionally  the same track. And I can gradually put P4 wheels on those when I wish (using the same BB and as my P:87 flangeways are compatible) and so still run them pre and post conversion too. BTW, for those of you in the UK that don't mind the gauge not being to 4mm scale, that seems to me to be a much overlooked, yet very practical option.

 

So that's why I wouldn't call 16.2 mm gauge either HO or "00".  I couldn't do any of the above using it. And especially note that I couldn't even merely place my "finer" standard HO scale stock onto 16.2 mm gauge track, let alone run it.  It won't even fit on 16.2 mm track because it's a different and incompatible gauge.

 

I hope this explains my comment better. There are pros and cons to all ideas that change the status quo. These are some of mine that may not be necessarily obvious to someone considering that they are going to use just another "no cons" slight variant of "00". So I don't feel following my reasons above as should be considered to be just making a common mistake.

 

Andy

[Rowsley17D]

Well my gauges have arrived from Down Under, just got to learn how to use them now!

[martin_wynne]

So I don't feel following my reasons above as should be considered to be just making a common mistake.

 

Sorry Andy, I should have phrased that better.

 

But I still think you are seeing a problem where none exists. 00-SF, 00-BF, DOGA Intermediate, NMRA H0, and Peco 00/H0 pointwork can all be mixed on the same layout because they can ALL use the same 00 RTR wheels, effectively the same profile as NMRA RP25/110 wheels, see:

 

 http://www.doubleogauge.com/standards/commercialwheels.htm

 

If they all use the same 00 wheels, it makes sense to call them all 00 gauge. You can convert a layout using any of them to 00-SF one turnout at a time and continue running.

 

The advantage of 00-SF is that in addition to those RTR wheels you get much better running from finer kit wheels such as EMGS (RP25/88), BRMSB (RP25/100) and Ultrascale wheels. Plus the improved appearance of the narrower 1.0mm flangeways.

 

No one is pretending that 00-SF is an alternative to EM or P4.

 

The great advantage of the underscale 00 track gauge for UK modellers is that RTR models are the correct scale width over the running gear, bogie sideframes, splashers, etc., for conversion to EM and P4. That wouldn't be the case if they were made to the same gauge as P4 with RTR wheels. I know the rest of the world think we in the UK are mad, but there are good reasons for doing 00 the way we do. Those who devised it knew what they were doing.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Rowsley17D]

Just a word of warning for those ordering 00-SF gauges from DCC Concepts Australia, that they stock gauges for flat-bottomed track and bullhead track so specify the one you want as BH will not go through the FB gauge (ask me how I know). Also they have two back-to-back widths for the roller gauges, 14.5 mm and  14.75 mm so again specify which you want.