duffym Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Hi folks , I hope that this is in the right place if not Mods please move it The motor in this loco (1st issue from 1999) has developed a fault whereby when power is applied it will barely turn and draw in excess of 2 amps for about 5 seconds and then burst into life properly and behave normally until the next time it is left idle. I have removed the motor from the chassis to eliminate that from the issue and it still behaves the same.A large amount of sparking comes from the brushes/commutator area while this is happening. I think a new motor is required. I will attempt to contact the Bachmann spares Dept but is there a Mashima motor (or similar) which would drop straight in? Any help much appreciated Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Branchlines may well have the right Buhler motor replacement. Do keep us posted on whatever outcome, I have been pounding two of these for over a dozen years now, and there's a 'rustling' noise from one when running, which wasn't there before Christmas... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theakerr Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Will also be following for much the same reason as 34 etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duffym Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 right I have had a reply from Bachmann which is posted below. I think I'm going to go for this and see how much surgery is required to fit the new motor. I'll update once I have had a look at the new motor and cradle. "Thank you for your enquiry: we can supply a motor and cradle for £17 plus £2 postage The current motor is slightly longer and it will be necessary to lengthen the motor cavity in the body slightly" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duffym Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 still waiting for the new motor and cradle so decided to have a tinker with the old motor. I sprayed the interior of the motor with a solvent based brake cleaner (used on cars) and washed a lot of carbon dust out of the commutator/brushes area. Once it had dried again I lubricated the motor bearings again. Result is that the motor now behaves perfectly and is currently back in the chassis being tested with a train. How long the "fix" will last is anyone's guess as the brushes must be well worn down by now but worth bearing in mind if your can motor is failing with similar symptoms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60526 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I had the same problem with my WD and bought a new motor and cradle from B'mann. After some initial problems with the fit, by gradually filing out the body at the front and back of the firebox I got there and it works very well now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duffym Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 I had the same problem with my WD and bought a new motor and cradle from B'mann. After some initial problems with the fit, by gradually filing out the body at the front and back of the firebox I got there and it works very well now. do you recall how much longer the new motor is? I have now received the new one but not yet dismantled the loco to compare them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I have decoder fitted a later example of the WD with the Bach 3 pole motor. From the notes I took, the Bachmann motor, and thus the cradle it sits in, is 2mm longer over the bearings, 29mm; as opposed to 27mm for the Buhler motor. What Bachmann did to accomodate this slightly longer motor is move the motor cradle forward until it nearly butts up against the cast upstand on the chassis in which the pinion gear is mounted. That would clear inside the old model bodyshell opening, except that the Bachmann motor shaft protruded about 0.8mm on the rear of that example (and there's likely to be some variation on that shaft protrusion) such that on the newer model the casting that forms the footplate has been cut back about 0.5 mm at the rear of the motor aperture into the body. It was still a tight fit, the motor passed in and out of the body opening with a 'wiggle'. So provided they haven't altered it any further... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duffym Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 thanks for the info - I have removed the body and compared old and new motors now. As you say the motor is 2 mm longer but the cradle is 4 mm longer so i suspect that a fair bit of carving will be required to the body if/when i install a later motor. For now the old Buhler motor is performing well so I'll leave it alone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallmodelspares Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I also heard some earlier Bachmann models have a canon motor in them has anyone found these fit into the Bachmann models? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold highpeakman Posted February 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2014 I have decoder fitted a later example of the WD with the Bach 3 pole motor. From the notes I took, the Bachmann motor, and thus the cradle it sits in, is 2mm longer over the bearings, 29mm; as opposed to 27mm for the Buhler motor. What Bachmann did to accomodate this slightly longer motor is move the motor cradle forward until it nearly butts up against the cast upstand on the chassis in which the pinion gear is mounted. That would clear inside the old model bodyshell opening, except that the Bachmann motor shaft protruded about 0.8mm on the rear of that example (and there's likely to be some variation on that shaft protrusion) such that on the newer model the casting that forms the footplate has been cut back about 0.5 mm at the rear of the motor aperture into the body. It was still a tight fit, the motor passed in and out of the body opening with a 'wiggle'. So provided they haven't altered it any further... I am having problems with my WD that sound similar. I cannot remember when I purchased it although it was some years ago. The annoying thing is that it has spent most of it's time in it's box. I tested it on a rolling road after having got it out of store and it seemed to run just fine. I oiled and greased the bearings/gears and cleaned the contacts on the wheels as well as the wheels themselves. I then fitted a decoder and when test running it suddenly became very jerky when slow running. It also made a slightly weird noise. I suspected the chip (A Lenz Silver) and so converted it back to DC and it did the same thing. Suddenly it seemed OK and ran just fine again, both fast and slow. I refitted the decoder and everything performed well - for a while, then back to bad running. After converting back to Dc again and then another, different, decoder fitted followed by fits and starts of good/bad running I have to think it is the motor itself. It seems to arc a lot around the brushes when playing up.(plus a "warm" smell). Before ordering a new motor I would like to ask a couple of questions about your post please. When I measured my motor I get 29mm, from cradle end to cradle end - is that the dimension you are quoting? Does this mean it is the later motor and not the Buhler? The model number is 32-252A and motor is shown as 300-004 on the service sheet. So should the "new" motor fit straight in? Can you please advise on removal of the motor from the cradle? It looks as if it should just prise out but I am a bit concerned about damaging the cradle. I would like to have a go at cleaning it as you describe above. Any help advice would be appreciated. Thank you. Don Edit: Have just found a picture of a Buhler motor which appears to be a can motor? If that is the case then are all later "open" motors of the same Bachmann type in the longer cradle? Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60526 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Whilst making my mind up about a new motor we removed it and made it a failure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theakerr Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Highpeakman, Over the past number of years (although I haven't seen anything for at least two years so maybe it is sorted) there have been a number of posts about Bachmann motors with possible oil on the commuter and around the brushes. The description is similar to yours. On occasion (as was the case with my DMU) the motor will actually smoke and make the horrible smell suggesting the motor is fried. The solution seems to be either, let it run rough and stall but eventually the oil will burn off and all will be well, get some spray on evaporative electrical cleaner and spray it around the brushes armature etc. Don't forget to dry it off with a hairdryer despite it being advertised as self evaporating or you can get a rather spectacular flash and puff when you put power to the motor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold highpeakman Posted February 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2014 Highpeakman, Over the past number of years (although I haven't seen anything for at least two years so maybe it is sorted) there have been a number of posts about Bachmann motors with possible oil on the commuter and around the brushes. The description is similar to yours. On occasion (as was the case with my DMU) the motor will actually smoke and make the horrible smell suggesting the motor is fried. The solution seems to be either, let it run rough and stall but eventually the oil will burn off and all will be well, get some spray on evaporative electrical cleaner and spray it around the brushes armature etc. Don't forget to dry it off with a hairdryer despite it being advertised as self evaporating or you can get a rather spectacular flash and puff when you put power to the motor.[/quot1e] Thanks for that. I'll spray it with cleaner tomorrow and give it some more running to see what happens. I did oil the bearings but very carefully using a needle point oiler and am well aware of dangers of overdoing it. However I am very happy to try what you suggest. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 ..Before ordering a new motor I would like to ask a couple of questions about your post please. When I measured my motor I get 29mm, from cradle end to cradle end - is that the dimension you are quoting? Does this mean it is the later motor and not the Buhler? The model number is 32-252A and motor is shown as 300-004 on the service sheet. So should the "new" motor fit straight in? Can you please advise on removal of the motor from the cradle? It looks as if it should just prise out but I am a bit concerned about damaging the cradle. I would like to have a go at cleaning it as you describe above. .. Edit: Have just found a picture of a Buhler motor which appears to be a can motor? If that is the case then are all later "open" motors of the same Bachmann type in the longer cradle?... The 29mm dimension I have a note of (don't actually own one of these Bachmann motored WD's, was modifying it for a friend) is over the bearing ends, the plastic cradle over the ends where it clamps the motor will be approximately the same length. (Since I don't have it to look at there may be moulded on protrusions that I am unaware of, that make the cradle longer than the motor overall.) Removing any motor from the plastic cradle that Bachmann use on many of their steam models. Ease the non-worm end of the cradle away a little, and lever up the motor. The cradle is made in a good tough polymer which is sufficiently elastic to recover. I wouldn't attempt the job on a very cold model though, let it warm up to a comfortable room temperature. The limits of my knowledge on motors fitted to the Bachmann WD : what I have are early versions fitted with a closed can motor 27mm long over bearing ends, and clearly stamped 'Buhler' on the can. Clearly at some point Bachmann switched to their own 29mm long motor design. They may well have installed other makes/designs of motors on this model - for example on the A1 they used Mashima motors for a spell - but I simply don't know whether it's just the two types of motors we know about already, or more; if necessary I would suggest that you enquire of Bachmann service via the e-mail contact on their site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold highpeakman Posted February 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 28, 2014 The 29mm dimension I have a note of (don't actually own one of these Bachmann motored WD's, was modifying it for a friend) is over the bearing ends, the plastic cradle over the ends where it clamps the motor will be approximately the same length. (Since I don't have it to look at there may be moulded on protrusions that I am unaware of, that make the cradle longer than the motor overall.) Removing any motor from the plastic cradle that Bachmann use on many of their steam models. Ease the non-worm end of the cradle away a little, and lever up the motor. The cradle is made in a good tough polymer which is sufficiently elastic to recover. I wouldn't attempt the job on a very cold model though, let it warm up to a comfortable room temperature. The limits of my knowledge on motors fitted to the Bachmann WD : what I have are early versions fitted with a closed can motor 27mm long over bearing ends, and clearly stamped 'Buhler' on the can. Clearly at some point Bachmann switched to their own 29mm long motor design. They may well have installed other makes/designs of motors on this model - for example on the A1 they used Mashima motors for a spell - but I simply don't know whether it's just the two types of motors we know about already, or more; if necessary I would suggest that you enquire of Bachmann service via the e-mail contact on their site. Thanks very much indeed for that information. I think it confirms the fact that my WD is fitted with a Bachmann motor so that if I have to replace it it should be less of a problem. I also appreciate your comment on removal of the motor from the cradle - I will now be slightly less apprehensive if I have to go that far! I will try the cleaning advice first and go from there depending on results. I know that storage will affect grease and oil so all models are cleaned up, carefully oiled and greased and then test run in on a rolling road when I come to use them again. However, as a general comment, I have found it very disappointing that several Bachmann locos that I have purchased over the past few years, after having been test run only when new and then stored in their original packing, have been found wanting now that I have started to use them on the layout that I am in the process of constructing. The worst is the 04 diesel which is now a totally unusable model as the axles have decayed over 5 or 6 years (I know that is a well known problem) but several others including this WD appear to need remedial work of varying degrees before working properly. Just last night I discovered that my Ivatt Tank's front truck jumps off going over leading points (code 75) so I need to look at the springing of it. There are a couple of others with similar minor problems. It is just that I don't seem to have this problem with other brands - even my old Triang locos from the 60s still work even if the quality of running is hardly brilliant by modern standards. I really do think that Bachmann make superb looking models and I really like the running quality when all is going well but I am finding a lot of niggling problems which seem to be time related rather than wear. Perhaps I am just unlucky? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold highpeakman Posted February 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 28, 2014 Using the above information I have removed the motor and sprayed some cleaning stuff around the brush area. After letting it dry off I reinstalled the motor and the loco now runs perfectly again. I am pleased with the result although now left wondering how long it will run like this. Anyway the advice offered has saved me the cost of a new motor and I am very grateful for that so Thanks to everyone for the help and advice. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 ...I know that storage will affect grease and oil so all models are cleaned up, carefully oiled and greased and then test run in on a rolling road when I come to use them again. However, as a general comment, I have found it very disappointing that several Bachmann locos that I have purchased over the past few years, after having been test run only when new and then stored in their original packing, have been found wanting now that I have started to use them on the layout that I am in the process of constructing. The worst is the 04 diesel which is now a totally unusable model as the axles have decayed over 5 or 6 years (I know that is a well known problem) but several others including this WD appear to need remedial work of varying degrees before working properly. Just last night I discovered that my Ivatt Tank's front truck jumps off going over leading points (code 75) so I need to look at the springing of it. There are a couple of others with similar minor problems. It is just that I don't seem to have this problem with other brands - even my old Triang locos from the 60s still work even if the quality of running is hardly brilliant by modern standards. I really do think that Bachmann make superb looking models and I really like the running quality when all is going well but I am finding a lot of niggling problems which seem to be time related rather than wear. Perhaps I am just unlucky? I can make that comparison, since although I largely buy models which are going to go on the layout and run, there is also a stash of locos bought for sparing and projects which after testing then sit immobile until required for some purpose or other. What I have found is that the stored locos often need a littleTLC to resume running as well as they went into the box, and to match the identical specimen which has seen continuous service. There are good reasons why they differ from earlier and simpler models. First, the multistage plastic gear train: this is a large part of what delivers the more refined running, as compared to an older design with a worm driving directly on an axle. But it is also more prone to lubricant drying/thickening on the gears and making them 'imperfect' in form. That takes a while to clean up as fresh lubricant circulates and the gear train is worked. Second, the material choices for the current pick up wiper and wheel. Oxidation naturally occurs to any non-noble metal surface, and this appears to happen slightly more rapidly on current product, so pick up from the track is compromised when first run after some years stored. (Directly powering the motor for a couple of minutes to repolish the wiper tips and wheelback contact tracks is a good quick way to get through much of this trouble.) The split chassis mechanisms as in your 04 and Ivatt tank, these are continuing trouble whether run or not! It's a slightly different problem set for each state: the best thing to do with them is keep them running, when used they wear out no faster than when sitting in storage in my experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold highpeakman Posted March 1, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2014 I agree with your comment that the best practice is to use the models - the same as cars I have found. Unfortunately that has not always been possible as I have only recently had the opportunity to construct a layout whereas, over many years, I have tried to collect models to run on the principal of "one day I will build...." and obtaining the models I want while they are available (becoming more difficult with seemingly limited availability these days). I also took advantage of some good offers when they were available (again, less frequent these days). My recently built layout is a modest end to end so no long runs are possible. Having purchased locos that I like and which are (mostly) correct for the modelled location I still have far too many to run them all at any one time so many are going to still wait their turn in boxes. So I guess the problems will continue - such are the trials (and sometimes fun) of being a modeller! I am slowly working my way through the stud now, cleaning and fitting decoders where needed so that is why I am discovering problems as I open the boxes of each model. My Aussie is still running perfectly today but today's "fight" was with a Hornby 8F so perhaps my words about Bachmann a couple of days ago were unfair and the comments in your post above are the principal answer. Thanks again for your helpful comments. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 I have just obtained a second hand N class mogul. On testing the motor did nothing. Hot wire to the motor, still nothing. I then turned the worm (smothered in white grease) and applied power. It burst into life. It will start sometimes. In certain positions it will not re-start. Can the brushes be replaced or is it a new motor job. I have a 2251 in my donor box with the same motor. I'll swap them over and how it goes. Tips and suggestions appreciated, Thanks in advance Ernie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 I have just obtained a second hand N class mogul. On testing the motor did nothing. Hot wire to the motor, still nothing. I then turned the worm (smothered in white grease) and applied power. It burst into life. It will start sometimes. In certain positions it will not re-start. Can the brushes be replaced or is it a new motor job. Whilst it could be a brush/commutator interface issue, it is just as likely that a poor connection between the commutator and one of the armature windings is to blame, either broken (no connection) or dry (intermittent connection). If a motor is in the correct position it will start and continue to run (but with less torque) with one winding out of circuit, but if it is in the wrong position it will just refuse to start - s*d's law says that the armature will almost always come to rest in that wrong position. The only real solution for that is a new motor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Whilst it could be a brush/commutator interface issue, it is just as likely that a poor connection between the commutator and one of the armature windings is to blame, either broken (no connection) or dry (intermittent connection). If a motor is in the correct position it will start and continue to run (but with less torque) with one winding out of circuit, but if it is in the wrong position it will just refuse to start - s*d's law says that the armature will almost always come to rest in that wrong position. The only real solution for that is a new motor. The 2251 motor didn't have the little 2 pin plug as the N so didn't swap to test. I have been in contact with Bachmann and a new motor with cradle has been paid for £17 + £2 postage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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