Portchullin Tatty Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 On my present layout thread, I have mentioned that I am making use of a friend's joinery shop, but that the favour was not without a price. Tim and Julian have recently acquired Benfieldside. This rather exquisite layout was built by John Wright and was subsequently owned by John James. If you want to see how good it is, find yourself MRJ 38 and you will see what I mean! The layout is North Eastern, a little prior to the first war and in EM. The guys have only a modicum of stock, so they have a fair of work to go to get it up and running. Benfieldside has a fair number of signals..........................well it did once. Now it has few damaged signals and a number of sites where signals once were. This is where the use of Tim and Julian's joinery shop ceases to be free - my part of the deal is to restore those that remain and provide replacements where they are missing. My brief is restore those that still exist and to set them up for servo operation; when we get to making new ones then I am likely to have a free hand as to what to build (I think, we will see when we get there!). Here are the first three; all of which have different issues. This one has a shattered post and is missing its access gantry/ladder. In addition, the signal arm has become detached and as the signal is slotted (ie the arm is within a slot in the post), this is going to be quite difficult to fix in situ. This one also suffers from problems associated with the slotting - when Martin made this he only used lattice work for the front and back in order to provide a slot for the arm. This however has made the signal very weak. In addition, the gantry and ladder are missing. One of the arms us detached from its operating arm, its ladder and finial are also missing. Fortunately, the North Eastern used Mackenzie & Holland as their signal suppliers as well as the Highland. Therefore, even though I know precious little about the NER's signals, there are similarities and I will get to use my etches! Anyway, the signals have been stripped and restoration has started; a post next week will show how they are coming along. But first a couple of pleas; does anyone have any photographs of similar signals to these or of the layout prior to them being damaged? I have the article from MRJ and this does show the first of these signals fairly well and the third one to a degree; but beyond this I am fairly blind! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I am doubtful as to whether the lattice signal with two dolls is correct in having its arms in slots. NER slotted signals, which were normally wooden, generally had slots which were long enough to hide the signal arm, a throwback to the early days when the arm hidden within the post signified line clear. There has been some recent discussion elsewhere among signalling experts as to whether a slot of that length is practical in a lattice post as it would weaken the post too much. We are aware of a photo of a subsidiary signal with a much shorter arm which works within a slot in a lattice post, but that slot is much shorter matching the short arm, and probably doesn't compromise the strength of what is also quite a short post too much. Otherwise, no one knows of any photos which show NER lattice posts with full length arms working in slots. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I am doubtful as to whether the lattice signal with two dolls is correct in having its arms in slots. NER slotted signals, which were normally wooden, generally had slots which were long enough to hide the signal arm, a throwback to the early days when the arm hidden within the post signified line clear. There has been some recent discussion elsewhere among signalling experts as to whether a slot of that length is practical in a lattice post as it would weaken the post too much. We are aware of a photo of a subsidiary signal with a much shorter arm which works within a slot in a lattice post, but that slot is much shorter matching the short arm, and probably doesn't compromise the strength of what is also quite a short post too much. Otherwise, no one knows of any photos which show NER lattice posts with full length arms working in slots. As a general rule Southern Division signals had wooden posts/dolls, likewise the Central Division, the Northern Division usualy lattice. Both the Southern and Northern Divisions used slotted arms, the Central Division, conventional "Outside" arms. I believe, original drawings survive of the Northern lattice posts and dolls, I will check with a couple of mates. Likewise, I will ask what photo's they have of lattice posts/dolls etc. Certainly several drawings of the Southern Division (my own interest), wooden posts/dolls survive, and I have them here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 As a general rule Southern Division signals had wooden posts/dolls, likewise the Central Division, the Northern Division usualy lattice. Both the Southern and Northern Divisions used slotted arms, the Central Division, conventional "Outside" arms. I believe, original drawings survive of the Northern lattice posts and dolls, I will check with a couple of mates. Likewise, I will ask what photo's they have of lattice posts/dolls etc. Certainly several drawings of the Southern Division (my own interest), wooden posts/dolls survive, and I have them here. Thanks Mick & bécasse, I won't say I am surprised to hear this; partly because the layout features both slotted signals and outside arms. I was a little surprised to find the two mixed up in the same location? It may well be easier to swap the dolls on the lattice signal, I would not be heartbroken to find that the considered opinion is that they are not correct! Having said this, my brief for these three at least is to restore if I can, rather than change/replace. Another puzzle is that the three doll signal is surprisingly small. The arms are less than the size of the other signals and the overall height is relatively moderate. I am not clear if this was an attempt at perspective modelling or whether they really did come a "dinky" signals. On the Highland, the definitely would not have and most of their signals are quite giant! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Thanks Mick, that does at least confirm that you can have a slotted lattice signal. I can see that there is quite a big slot to the arm side of the doll and only a very small one to the lamp side. I will have to do something similar to the lattice signal I have as with just the two sides it is way too sloppy. The first of the pictures also shows that the lens carrier sticks quite some way out from the doll; rather further than I would have expected. This is good as this is how I have done it on the signal I am presently working on (in order to give clearance for the operating wire not to snag. It also shows that the arms are pretty short, much like the triple doll signal. As you said offline, John Wright did know his stuff! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Dear Mark, only too pleased to be of help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinzaC55 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I have a number of photo's of slotted posts here http://www.ipernity.com/search/photo?w=309841&q=slotted and this one is relevant to the 3 doll bracket NER Signal St Peters 1977 par PinzaC55, on ipernity plus this Penshaw Disused Junction Signal 22.3.80 par PinzaC55, on ipernity I really need to get these organised in an album sometime! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinzaC55 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Done http://www.ipernity.com/doc/pinzac55/album/623253 More to be added when I find them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Thanks a load PinzaC55, that is very helpful as the three doll that you have shown is more than a little similar to that which I have (the main exception being that the one I have is a MacKenzie & Holland). In particular it is pretty compact and it answers another question; did they really put the landing in front of the arms, rather than behind - yes is the answer to that one! Mind you, it strikes me as a little precarious on the landing in your photo. I would be hanging on fairly firmly if I was up on that! The lower picture also shows what I had grasped from Mick's earlier photos as to how the lattice worked around a slotted signal and it too must have a landing on the front, otherwise the arm would be obscured by the bridge (ie this signal would have faced to the right). I am not ready to do the painting of these yet, but can I confirm the colours that have been used are correct? The layout's era will be kept as John Wright had had it; the decade before the outset of the first war. Nearly all of it was painted white with the exception of the balance levers, spectacle plates casing and the pivot base which were all black and the landing was probably creosoted? None of these that I have are distants but I think there is one to come, would this have been green at this point? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Done http://www.ipernity.com/doc/pinzac55/album/623253 More to be added when I find them. On a slightly different point, I looked through this album which was interesting in itself but also your wider album of NE stuff; much of which was taken in the 1970's when a lot of the NE/LNER stuff was still about. A valuable resource and well done for doing this. My real interest is the Highland and I know that a number of people have did the same (with the same affect) but they are not quite upto plonking it onto the web as you have so it remains a private resource; hopefully they will learn the computer trick in good time of the HRS do get around to creating a repository for these private collections. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinzaC55 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Thanks a load PinzaC55, that is very helpful as the three doll that you have shown is more than a little similar to that which I have (the main exception being that the one I have is a MacKenzie & Holland). In particular it is pretty compact and it answers another question; did they really put the landing in front of the arms, rather than behind - yes is the answer to that one! Mind you, it strikes me as a little precarious on the landing in your photo. I would be hanging on fairly firmly if I was up on that! The lower picture also shows what I had grasped from Mick's earlier photos as to how the lattice worked around a slotted signal and it too must have a landing on the front, otherwise the arm would be obscured by the bridge (ie this signal would have faced to the right). I am not ready to do the painting of these yet, but can I confirm the colours that have been used are correct? The layout's era will be kept as John Wright had had it; the decade before the outset of the first war. Nearly all of it was painted white with the exception of the balance levers, spectacle plates casing and the pivot base which were all black and the landing was probably creosoted? None of these that I have are distants but I think there is one to come, would this have been green at this point? The St Peters signal was the best signal still existing at the time and the Riverside Branch was closed beyond Carville shortly after I took that photo at the age of 18. I asked British Rail if it was possible to buy it and they quoted me £30 plus the cost of a lookout man. I offered it to Beamish and the NYMR if they helped me recover it but they both declined so as far as I know it was cut up and burned. The St Peters Down Distant was saved by the Tanfield Railway and is in use at the little platform off the main line at Marley Hill where it has been refitted as a Home. Having the ladder at the front was standard in NER signals with exceptions of course. If you look at the base you can see that the crank for the right doll is hanging loose thus explaining the lack of a gallery! There was no signalbox here and although there was an equally fine Home bracket signal opposite it I don't know if these were used at the time. The one you pictured seems to be of an earlier pattern as it has little finials projecting down; these were only used - AFAIK - on the NER(ND) and there's a good photo of one at Border Counties Junction in "North Eastern Record Volume 1" by the NERA which also has scale drawings of signals. No problem with the colours you mentioned but not sure what you mean by "green"? In NER days, as with most pre grouping companies, Distant arms were red with a vertical white stripe the same as Home signals. I have added another view of the Penshaw signal to my linked album; when it was in use it had a large black object attached to one of the dolls but I have no idea what it was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinzaC55 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Hi Portchullin Tatty, I just need to throw a spanner into the works regarding the colour scheme! I have the book "North Eastern Album" by Ken Hoole and it has 2 pre grouping photo's taken at King Edward Bridge Junction in Newcastle which show that all ironwork on the lattice posts - spectacle castings , back blinders and balance weights - was painted white except for the ladders and lamps and the bottom 3 feet of the main posts which were black. The handrails "may" be black. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Somewhere, I have a write up on the Searchlight Distant signal. I will ask more knowledgable mates about it. Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinzaC55 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Somewhere, I have a write up on the Searchlight Distant signal. I will ask more knowledgable mates about it. Mick. There was a debate about it on signalbox.org and as far as I remember the conclusion was that it was a mechanical searchlight, probably at Naburn (Selby). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 There was a debate about it on signalbox.org and as far as I remember the conclusion was that it was a mechanical searchlight, probably at Naburn (Selby). Below is one of my mate's reply. Yours, Mick. LNER mechanical colour light, on the down main south of Naburn. Fog repeater for Naburn 5 and 6 signals. Richard circulated the diagram at the time and I have attached a copy. Another interesting subject for a model, Mick ? Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 28, 2014 Below is one of my mate's reply. Yours, Mick. LNER mechanical colour light, on the down main south of Naburn. Fog repeater for Naburn 5 and 6 signals. Richard circulated the diagram at the time and I have attached a copy. Another interesting subject for a model, Mick ? Neil I have the relevant signalling plans should anyone be interested further (can't remember where I got them from ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I have the relevant signalling plans should anyone be interested further (can't remember where I got them from ) Thanks Mike, you possibly got the drawing from JW, it is a mutal friend that replied. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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