Waddon Marsh Revived!

[Pete 75C]

Having sold my last 2 N gauge layouts and frustrated by an imminent lack of space for a decent size "roundy" layout, I've been pondering the idea of a OO end to end layout that can be operated from the front and pushed back against a wall.

Having grown up in Wallington (near Croydon), I've long been fascinated by the West Croydon - Wimbledon branch, in particular Waddon Marsh and its industrial surroundings. As a driver at Selhurst in the late 90s, I was fortunate enough to be rostered to drive a couple of trips on the line on the very last day of service (1998, I think). All that I remember is now long gone, apart from the gasholders and the 2 former power station chimneys that now form part of an Ikea superstore, the line itself having been swept away by Croydon Tramlink.

This modest-sized fiddle yard - through station - fiddle yard layout will be my take on Waddon Marsh circa 1970. I started a thread a little while back in RMWeb's Prototype Questions section:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82808-railways-around-waddon-marsh-croydon/

and have amassed a huge amount of maps and images of Waddon Marsh, so, knowing how much room I have to play with, and which scenic features are a "must-have", the baseboards are now being cut. Overall length will be 14 feet and depth around 18 inches, a left and right fiddle yard board, each 4 feet long, and the centre scenic section 6 feet long (see plan below). All of the intermediate stations on the West Croydon - Wimbledon branch (except Mitcham Junction) can only handle a 2 car unit, and for modelling purposes that's a big bonus for me with regard to space! I can see a couple of Bachmann 2EPBs are going to be a must for this project!

As my modelling skills hopefully improve and I move further away from the train set end of the spectrum, I've decided to make this truly portable with detachable legs and lighting rig over the centre section. Presentation will be given some thought too. For the first time ever, I've planned to use brass dowels for alignment rather than my usual coach bolt and "jiggle it about 'til it lines up" method. I'll add some shots of the completed boards soon.

Before the track goes down, I now need to make my mind up whether to stick with DC or use this layout as an excuse to dabble with DCC for the first time. Thanks to the simple track plan, this might be the ideal layout for me to learn about DCC. The jury's still out but I'm 70/30 in favour of DCC at the moment. Any suggestions would be more than welcome. So too would be any memories of the line you might have, either on this thread or the prototype one. Pete.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2017 by Pete 75C

[FiveandNine]

Hi Pete,

 

DCC has the stretch potential for constant, directional lighting and sound, items that become more important on a small layout. Most of my recollections of travelling the 'slam-door special' in SE London seem to involve the lights being on simply because the windows were so dirty, and then there's that noise they make when setting off. A Class 73 switching over from third rail to diesel would also be an interesting feature to hear.

 

That said, I've just junked DCC due to cost and the fact that some of my favourite locos are difficult (not impossible) to convert. If all your stock is going to be relatively long wheelbase, dead frog points wired to be permanently live in both directions really simplify the wiring - your fiddleyard could be a mare to wired up if using live frog. I ended up getting all sorts of weird and wonderful faults when I (wrongly) assumed I could just switch all my tracks to live with electrofrog points. I ended up having to install switched sections, which sort of defeats the object of DCC a bit...

 

Looking forward to seeing this one progress.

 

Al

[Pete 75C]

Thanks Al. The points on the scenic board are going to be Code 75 Electrofrog (all bought and waiting to be laid) but I did worry a little about the fiddle yard. I'm tempted to go for dead frog Setrack, simply because I have some left over from a previous project. The fiddle yard at the other end won't be built just yet, but as it's a simple 2 road exit, I might go for a traverser. Not something I've ever built but I guess there's always a first time. As long as I at least have a fiddle yard at the left hand end, I can crack on with the build and be able to run stock for testing etc. There won't be a lot of stock to chip, so cost shouldn't be too bad. Constant lighting is what appeals to me now, but sound is something I could consider for the future. The "thump" of the compressor on EPB stock, particularly...

Edited March 18, 2014 by Pete 75C

[The Bigbee Line]

DCC gets my vote, you can start with DC anyway.  Some section switches are handy to fault find later.

 

I like the track plan, a nice twist on the original.  I've taken the liberty to fiddle with the fiddle yard.

 

 

 

The Passenger Line has its own dedicated road in the fiddle yard, with the option of another road if you have 2 x 2 cars.  The diamond is to get shunts from the goods line over to the Gas Works side of things without shunting back into the station on the Passenger Line.  To get that all in a 4 foot fiddle yard will be a struggle.

 

 

[Pete 75C]

Thanks Ernie. I admit to not giving any thought to getting traffic over from the goods line without shunting into the station. Unfortunately, 4ft is the absolute max. available length for each fiddle yard. I'll play around with the new fiddle yard layout in AnyRail to see if I can get it to work and what the stock lengths will be. To anyone reading, Ernie (The Bigbee Line) has been a valuable source of prototype information and I'm indebted to him. Pete.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Pete 75C

[mudmagnet]

I suggest DCC for a couple of reasons - firstly you don't need to worry about having a multitude of section switches, so that you can 'park' a loco where-ever you like. The slow running qualities of DCC fitted locos tends to be much better. I would never have built my own layout Orchard Road as a DC option.

[bobster]

Good plan Pete, and an Interesting area - I used to work in and around that part of Croydon in the mid 70s - Look forward to more.

 

Cheers, Bob.

[Pete 75C]

Fiddle Yards look ideal for Cassettes or something similar though

 

Spooky! You'll have to change your username to Mystic Mickey. Cassettes are a real possibility for the left hand board. As much as I liked Ernie's idea of a diamond to get goods line traffic across the main, it just won't work on a 4 foot board. I had a little play around with AnyRail last night and I'd end up with just 18 inches for train length, so thought that maybe cassettes would be the best option. Having said that, I don't plan to run trains anything longer than a 2EPB or very short trip freight, so we'll see.

The baseboards are 90% complete. Those little brass alignment dowels are a revelation! With careful fitting, they give a tolerance of about +/- 0.2mm and the boards line up perfectly without any hassle. The chap that bought my last layout declined to take the legs, so a little wood butchery will see them used on this layout, temporarily at least. They raise the boards to a track level height of about 38", which is comfortable enough to work on, but not high enough for viewing, at least I don't think so.

 

Waddon Marsh at the disused stations website gives an idea of the area and the kind of effect I'm aiming at.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Pete 75C

[Pete 75C]

On reflection, it does make sense for freight traffic for the gasworks arriving in the left hand fiddle yard from the goods line to be able to cross over without shunting back into the station, but hamstringed by an absolute maximum length of 4ft for the fiddle yard board, the only possible solution I've been able to come up with is this:

 

 

Passenger workings will be as per prototype and will normally consist of no more than a 2EPB, so there is more than enough room for these. Am I missing anything obvious...?

Edited March 20, 2014 by Pete 75C

[Nickinwestwales]

Hi there-just a couple of points,1st-from which end of the line did the gasworks receive its traffic ?-if the Wimbledon end,surely the wagons would have been shunted in the rats nest of sidings on the power station side of the Purley Way road bridge and would first appear from `stage left` as it were-poss. powered by one of the power stations own steamers-If from the W.Croydon end,then who says the next delivery to the gas works has to be the same wagons that have just been dropped off..?..The gas works siding could have its own discreet set of loads/empties run from an entirely separate set of fiddle sidings,after all-one manky 16t mineral looks much like another...2nd-what a lovely opportunity for a bit of contrast modelling-my memories of the site are of a neat & tidy (if somewhat faded) little halt surrounded by dirt & grime-and dwarfed by the bulk of Croydon `B` across the bridge.

It sticks in my memory as having retained semaphore signals longer than most-although that may just be the rose tinted specs...Lived in the area for 25 years and always had a soft spot for that station-delighted that someone is modelling it-will follow with interest

ATB

Nick

Edited March 20, 2014 by Nickinwestwales

[Pete 75C]

Hi Nick. You've hit the nail on the head... there is (was) such a rats nest of sidings nearby that in reality, anything could have appeared from anywhere. Within the limits of an 18" board, I can only manage the inclined siding into the gasworks (one of many), I only wish I had room for more. If I did, then one or two of the industrial shunters would be a must. I've seen plenty of photographic evidence of short trip freight crossing the down main at West Croydon station heading for the Wimbledon branch en route to Waddon Marsh. This will appear on the layout from the right, crossing over in the LH fiddle yard. More sidings = more traffic = more operating interest but the stumbling block is one of space. I've worked in N gauge before, but this just doesn't feel right for N.

The station itself was always (in my early memory) fairly neat and tidy until the signal box, goods line and loop disappeared. It was then overtaken by graffiti and neglect right up until closure. The semaphores (and therefore the signal box) would have been in use up until the early 80s. Until the Victoria line resignalling was completed, even West Croydon A Box (on the gantry) and the tiny B Box (under the bridge) were unchanged for decades.

I can't promise that I won't compromise (I've already done that with the track plan), but as I said earlier, if I can just get a feel for the place as I remember it, I'll be happy.

[coline33]

Pete, were you ever a member of the Carshalton and Sutton MRC when it had the house in Manor Road? If so, I might have known you!

 

Because of your interest in the WC-W line I have joined the forum. I have been sharing with Ernie my researches done for my table-top "Beddington Lane Halt and Sidings" layout. My father used the line from 1938 to 1971 and my meeting him off the train at BL every Saturday from 1948 to about 1952, being allowed in the SB each to watch his train's progress and exchange the tokens, gave me a love of the WC-W and the 2-WIMs from my journeying on them. In the period my father used the line he reported travelling on 3-SUB, 4-SUB, 4-COR, 2-HAP plus when a 2-NOL and a 2-HAL deputised for the 2-EPBs in 1958/9 before the Tyneside ones arrived. Later there were the 2-SAPs.

 

The best period to model is 1950 to 1971 when 2-WIMs, 2-SLs and 2-EPBs (both types) were used. 1971 saw the last of the sand trains to Blue Circlesidings pass through WM. Coal in and empties out normally went via Norwood but in diesel days a train of empties went to Totton via Wimbledon. The Fawley oil train always worked in and out from Wimbledon from the mid-1960s. WM was a busy place in this period especially with the non-stopping through trains - freights, EMU transfers, rail tours, ECSs for football specials. So to really benefit from the most WM can offer, a fiddle yard at either end is essential. You might like to consider bring the Wandle Park foot bridge nearer as the break with the fiddle at that end. Then you could add the Croydon 'A' siding - even having an electric steeple cab loco using overhead wires tramway style.

 

Certainly to achieve the fullest potential of fiddle-to-fiddle with the traffic on offer, I think DCC could score especially when you can run passenger and goods trains at different speeds on parallel tracks.

 

Look forward to seeing photos as the layout develops. All the best, Colin.

[Pete 75C]

Hi Colin. Welcome to the forum and thanks very much for that post. I'm always fascinated by the local knowledge of others, not least because it can often fill in the (many) gaps in my own knowledge! I've long been aware of the Carshalton & Sutton MRC but have never been a member of any club. Looking back, that was a mistake and I could have learnt a lot. Now I have to muddle through and make my own mistakes without the benefit of the advice of others. Actually, that's unfair to RMWeb and the advice here is always plentiful. I never knew the MRC had a base in Manor Road though, roughly what timespan would that have been? My parents' house is on Osmond Gardens in Wallington, just a hundred yards or so away from Manor Road.

Your father's account of the variety of stock on the line is invaluable, even if they were only rare appearances. I agree with you about the timespan to model, but I think my scratchbuilding skills would need to be many many times better than they actually are to do the line justice in that era!

I'm hoping to use part of the gasworks as a view-blocker instead of a true scenic break at the right-hand end, we'll have to see how that works out. I honestly wish I had more room but part of me is quite happy to only have limited space for this attempt. In a year or two, we have another house move on the cards, and we plan this to be the last move, so there will be more space available. I'll make sure that I bag a decent garage, loft conversion or at least a good-size spare room out of the deal! I'd actually quite like to model a representation of the line between Waddon Marsh and Beddington Lane, but that's one for the future! Until I'm more confident in my own ability, a layout this size is probably my best bet.

Thanks again Colin. Pete.

[coline33]

Pete, being an Old Walcountian helped me to know Wallington, even though I was brought up on the Mitcham Common side of Thornton Heath.   My first journeys to school started with the 16/18 tram or 115 bus.   The Feltham was a far superior vehicle to the D type that crossed your Purley Way bridge!!!   I joined C&SMRC when it was at the Scout Hall behind the Town Hall, so that dates me!!!   It had just moved there from being over the butcher's shop in Carshalton.   That would have been about 1960.   The coming of LB Sutton scotched the previous council's roundabout scheme in Manor Road.   A lovely detached house had been CPOed for it and left unattended for some years.   My friend's father who had become Associate Town Clerk for Sutton arranged for the club to take it over and do it up as a model railway club in the area was then considered a necessity for young and old.   After many years Sutton decided it required it to build more houses on the land.   The whole of upstairs was devoted to 4mm. rail and tram (the tunnel run through the back of the'Separate WC' - over the cistern!) while in a downstairs room was 7mm. tram and trolleybus, another for 7mm. railway while the garden was for large scale live steam.   Catering facilities were superb! 

 

There is plenty of RTR for you to use for 1959/60 with its half-hourly passenger service of 2-EPB and soon to arrive 2-HAL.   There were 24 timed freight/light engine movements in and out per day M-F of which 6 were through so you have RTR steamers with Fairburn, Fowler, Stanier, and Standard 2-6-4T,  E2 0-6-0T and C class 0-6-0.   Note - shunting movements within control of WM box not included.   I forgot to mention before the Carter Paterson/BRS van trains.   For 1966 the passenger was just 2-EPB.   The freight/light engine was down to 17 timed movements M-F with 4 as through, so you have Classes 04, 08, 09, 31, 33 and 73 all RTR.   For the diesel era 1965 was probably the busiest year for WM.   For both periods there are ample RTR wagons and vans available.   So you can build up a fleet quickly!

 

Now that will give you a lot to dream about tonight!!!   Colin.    

[Southernboy]

Good luck with this LifeboatMan.

 

I followed your preparatory research for this layout and all looks set for an interesting project  -  one not too distant from my own interests.

 

[coline33]

Pete, I forgot to mention the N 2-6-0 and the London Midland Region diesels in my RTR list. You mentioned space (try doing it on a table-top!!!). With you doing the Halt and east of Purley Way bridge and Ernie doing west of Purley Way bridge and both of you living in the same county, why not aim for a joint exhibition presentation. You do the Purley Way bridge on your section and the eastern fiddle yard and Ernie do the Croydon 'B' section and western fiddle yard. For operation at home, you would have your plain 'west end' fiddle yard and Ernie would have his 'east end' fiddle yard with his Purley Way bridge on it. Just agreement on the connection method for board and tracks and the board width required. For exhibitions there would be two of you to operate and pass trains between you both through the bridge.

 

Ever thought of your layout being L-shaped so your 'east end' fiddle yard is at right-angles to produce the Wandle Park curve with its foot bridge as the entrance arch? Remember, some freights used the Passenger Line and some rail tours the Goods Line.

 

Oh, the potential - you could even be on show in Croydon. Currently, I provide the Standard 2-6-4T, 22 wagons and a brake that appear as the '1030 coal empties from Waddon Marsh' when John Clarke's "West Croydon" layout appears in public. Alas the railway is static as is his 2-NOL or my 2-EPB in the bay platform, but at least a full working service of first and second generation trams is provided.

 

Kind regards, Colin.

[Pete 75C]

Just a quick update. The main scenic board and the left hand fiddle yard board are now complete. 9mm ply tops with 3" x 2" traditional bracing. I believe the softwood is actually sold as 71mm x 21mm, but I'm a bit old-fashioned when it comes to timber sizes. Fascias are 6mm MDF with the front fascia on the main board already roughly profiled to allow for the overbridge and the gasworks incline. 4mm cork tiles have been laid over the ply. The guy that bought my (sadly unfinished) N gauge layout didn't require the legs, so with a little butchery, these will be used temporarily to support this layout. Track level is around 38" which is reasonably comfortable to work with but too low (in my opinion) for finished viewing.

DCC won over DC and a Prodigy Express is now on its way to me. For someone new to DCC, I think it's a good halfway house between Hornby and Bachmann's train set DCC controllers and some of the more high end systems. I have lots to learn, so it should be ample for me!

Space (lack of) will be an issue for me for a year or two, so the size of Waddon Marsh has been limited accordingly. I'm a little disturbed to note that now the boards are finished, they look smaller than expected! Fitting a 2 car island platform station onto a 6ft board is not an issue, but I need to take into account the surrounding features that will give the layout a sense of identity. I do hope I have enough room!

My local stockist doesn't carry Peco Code 75 flexi in stock, maintaining there's no call for it (?!) so I need to make a trip to Aylsham. The track plan can then be played with before thoughts turn to wiring which is my nemesis. Pete.

 

Edited March 22, 2014 by Pete 75C

[Pete 75C]

Southernboy, thanks for that. After a couple of false starts in N, I'm determined to see this one through. I must drop in on your Frankland thread again, it's always a source of inspiration.

 

Colin, I went to an Old Walcountians reunion some years back. That was an evening to remember!

 

In all honesty, 1959/60 is around a decade too early for me. I have personal memories of the line no earlier than the 1970s, so familiarity wins in this case. I would dearly love to model the line earlier than that but maybe that's one for the future?

The thought of a collaboration is tempting but alas, you overestimate my abilities! I'm still very much learning and making lots of mistakes as I go along. I've never had any exhibition aspirations as I always manage to convince myself I'm not good enough. Some of the modelling I see within the pages of RMWeb is nothing short of outstanding, Southernboy's Frankland being a prime example amongst many. If I had joined a club (either Carshalton & Sutton when I lived there or more recently the Shoebury club when I lived near Southend for a number of years), things might have been different. I'd much rather make all my mistakes in private! Having said that, this is built to be portable, although at 6' x 18", the main board is pushing the boundary a little, so who knows what the future may hold? I do plan to give this one my best shot and push my modelling ability but I think this will stay firmly "at home".

Pete.

[Doughnut]

Great project theme. Weirdly,I was reading  a Southern Electrics book some weeks ago and  a Pic. of Waddon Marsh from the early 80's caught my attention. Love the down and out deriliction. I think, after your excellent joinery and the potential of the project, it deserves DCC. The sky's the limit with it.

 

Dave

Edited March 22, 2014 by Doughnut

[Nick Holliday]

As another Old Walcountian, perhaps we should have our own sub-forum!  Born in St Helier Hospital and brought up near Waddon station I used to cycle to Waddon Park, before we moved to Carshalton Beeches, and occasionally was rewarded when one of the coal trains clanked its way round the curve from West Croydon.  Childhood memories seem to include seeing an H16 4-6-2T and W 2-6-4T as well as, probably, BR standard tanks, although I cannot recall any tender locos during that period (end of the fifties) although I watched N class 2-6-0's shunting at Wallington station from a friend's back garden which overlooked the goods yard. I, too, although aware of its existence, never joined the C&SMRC, although I did go to some of their exhibitions/open days at their Manor Road premises.

[Pete 75C]

Great project theme. Weirdly,I was reading  a Southern Electrics book some weeks ago and  a Pic. of Waddon Marsh from the early 80's caught my attention. Love the down and out deriliction. I think, after your excellent joinery and the potential of the project, it deserves DCC. The sky's the limit with it.

Dave

 

Thanks Dave. Ironically one of my favourite Waddon Marsh pictures is post-closure and really captures the dereliction with almost all the earlier infrastructure gone. Links to a before and after shot, the earlier picture dates from around the time I plan to model:

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/w/waddon_marsh/index10.shtml

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/w/waddon_marsh/index3.shtml

 

 

As another Old Walcountian, perhaps we should have our own sub-forum!  Born in St Helier Hospital and brought up near Waddon station I used to cycle to Waddon Park, before we moved to Carshalton Beeches, and occasionally was rewarded when one of the coal trains clanked its way round the curve from West Croydon.  Childhood memories seem to include seeing an H16 4-6-2T and W 2-6-4T as well as, probably, BR standard tanks, although I cannot recall any tender locos during that period (end of the fifties) although I watched N class 2-6-0's shunting at Wallington station from a friend's back garden which overlooked the goods yard. I, too, although aware of its existence, never joined the C&SMRC, although I did go to some of their exhibitions/open days at their Manor Road premises.

 

I wonder if there are any more of us lurking on RMWeb? I too was dragged kicking and screaming into this life at St Helier. Favourite childhood memories include the "musical" bridge over the Wandle by the boating lake in Beddington Park. I used to run backwards and forwards over it bashing the steel structure with a conker on a piece of string. At least I thought it was musical, the park keepers weren't quite so impressed!

Nice shot of the goods yard at Wallington early 60s, maybe?:

http://www.yourlocalweb.co.uk/greater-london/sutton/carshalton/pictures/1052998-wallington-station-goods-yard/

Edited March 22, 2014 by Pete 75C

[coline33]

Lovely work of the boards, Pete, I appreciate what you said about space, but the opportunity and potential is there for the future.   Glad to see us Old Walcountians appearing!   My years were 1950 to 1957 and in 1951 we shared with the girls school a special EMU both ways between Wallington and Waterloo East for the Festival of Britain day out.

 

Thank you, Nick, for recalling seeing the H16 4-6-2T.   My reaction is yes on a coal train from Norwood Down Yard between rostered inter-section/region workings to/from Norwood.   I understand that both in steam and diesel days, if Norwood Shed or the subsequent Loco Sidings did not have a suitable loco available any 'foreigner' would be used for the trip working if there was sufficient lay-over time.   That is how I came to include a Fowler 2-6-4T in my fleet.  

 

Nick, if you remember the upstairs 4mm. layout from your open day visits to C&SMRC, then if before 1969, I was always operating the tram services from Manor Park station.   Even when I lived at Benfleet, 1963 to 1966, I would come over for those weekends.

 

So any more memories of loco classes, special workings, etc. on the WC-W or better still photographed but never published before, will be greatly appreciated by all.

 

Kind regards, Colin

[bobster]

Nice bit of woodwork there Pete - Coming along nicely.

 

Cheers.

Bob.

[Nick Holliday]

Colin

As a callow teenager I'm afraid I probably took no notice of the "old fogeys" running the layouts, although I was very impressed (envious) that an MRC like that could have such roomy, dedicated premises, including the garden for an outdoor track.

 

Pete

The metal bridge is still there, or at least it was this morning when I walked my dog, although since it was substantially reinforced with extra concrete it is nowhere near as musical, although it can vibrate alarmingly if anyone heavy chooses to run across it. But do you remember the timber trestle bridge that it replaced?  It didn't span the whole way across the lake, instead going to the island where there was a little viewing platform looking across the lake and the island seemed to be covered with bamboo.

[coline33]

Nick, I remember well the old timber trestle to the 'bamboo' island, in fact I used to row the boat round it.   Those good old days before the main building burnt down, or was it.   Through Beddington Park, along Half Mile Lane (hold yer nose!), Beddington Lane, Guy Road, the Dovecot, back round the Park - we had marvellous winning cross-country teams in those days.   In 1950 I started but not in the main school as the first form had to be accommodated in Beddington Orphanage/Manor.

 

Pete, I read your comments on the other forum about test trains.   After 1965 when WC-W was closed on Sundays, special workings occasionally occurred.   I have a note that on two unknown Sundays with a Class 33 at one end and a Class 73 at the other, a VEP motor coach was used to "impact test shoe-gear".   Another note is that on Sunday 22.8.1994 the Victoria - West Croydon service was diverted via Mitcham Junction and Waddon Marsh.   Classes 319 and 455 passed through on that day.   An interesting sighting I have noted was of a 4-EPB passing a 2-EPB at Waddon Marsh Halt on an unknown date much to the concern of the signalman who had never experienced EMUs passing there.   The years I have notes for the movements of Waterloo & City motor coaches between Wimbledon and Selhurst are 1970 and 1972.   As to pull-push stock, the only note I have is of Set 715 being used with a class H on a rail tour in 1958 - the loco used the water column on the Goods Siding at Beddington Lane Sidings.   My father recalled one instance of being on steam hauled 2 coach trains but could not remember whether it was due to wartime conditions, the power problems of 1947 or a week when the Wandle flooded the line at Morden Park but ceretainly before the 1950's.

 

All the best, Colin.