Robin2

If it fits in an NGauge tank loco I can't imagine any problem fitting it in a 7mm tank but we're not here to force anyone ... ...R

[Rant] Why on earth do people wast money electrifying real railways when diesel power is readily and conveniently available. We are told there is likely to be a shortage of generating capacity, so why use the generating stations to provide electric power for applications where it's not actually essential? [/Rant] ... and, no, I'm not investigating NGauge diesel power ...R

Steve, that makes a ton of sense. May I suggest that the next thing you do is convert one of your locos to BPR/C so you get the full experience (even on a few bits of setrack) before you make a whole load of other decisions. ...R

I like the general idea but I'm wondering if your use of the word "will" means that the layout has not yet been built. If that's the case I believe it will be worth considering whether the convenience of not needing any track wiring would justify the investment in total BPR/C. ...R

Hi David, and welcome to this subject. Now that I have figured out how to make the Deltang modules work as an Arduino device (DelTino) I am in the process of developing my own train control software to use them. I expect it will be able to have about 100 locos provided only about 12 or so are actually moving at any one time. The others will be treated as "parked" and could be "unparked" at any time (provided not more than 12 (say) are unparked at any one time. The operating locos will be able to send data back to the PC (for example battery voltage) but other stuff if you can conceive of it. I also plan to incorporate a small web server facility within my PC program so that trains could be controlled from smart phones (or similar) using the browsers in the phones. This is pretty easy to implement. If you have space in your loco for a micro SD card (or similar) I believe it would be possible for the onboard DelTino to control sounds from files stored on the SD card. Personally I'm not a fan of onboard sound even in larger scales - my trains are NGauge. I am planning to have under-baseboard sound but that will be separate from the DelTinos. This software is being planned for my personal use but I will probably make it available once it is presentable. The PC stuff is being written in JRuby (Java based) so it should work on any PC. ...R

Sorry Stuart, I had assumed you would automatically Google it if you were not familiar with the term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-outline_integrated_circuit ...R

Very interesting Stuart, What radio module did you use? None of the ones I have seen in my Picaxe searches have been that small. What is the second chip? and which is the Picaxe? I presume some of the Picaxe chips can operate at 3volts in which case a much smaller battery would do - the equivalent of one of the AAA's for instance. There are also SOIC picaxe chips which would be much smaller yet still (I think) hand solderable. ...R

Thanks for that Stuart, Its always interesting to see how others do things. Edit to add.... I've been reading more about Picaxe. Nobody seems to make anything like the Deltang products but there doesn't seem to be any technical reason why not. But it would probably not be very difficult to write a piece of software that converts Picaxe basic to Arduino C++ (and it would really get up the nose of the C purists ) ...R

Stuart, I agree all versions of C are a PITA. Given the choice I write programs in Ruby which is an interpreted language, as is Basic. Having said that the Arduino system makes C++ tolerable because it removes (hides) much of the formality of C. To give you an example the following program is all you need to make a servo move through its range. The "setup" routine runs once when the device is reset. The "loop" routine runs continuously. http://arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/Sweep ...R #include <Servo.h> // tell the compiler to use the servo library Servo myservo; // create servo object to control a servo // a maximum of eight servo objects can be created int pos = 0; // variable to store the servo position void setup() { myservo.attach(9); // attaches the servo on pin 9 to the servo object } void loop() { for(pos = 0; pos < 180; pos += 1) // goes from 0 degrees to 180 degrees { // in steps of 1 degree myservo.write(pos); // tell servo to go to position in variable 'pos' delay(15); // waits 15ms for the servo to reach the position } for(pos = 180; pos>=1; pos-=1) // goes from 180 degrees to 0 degrees { myservo.write(pos); // tell servo to go to position in variable 'pos' delay(15); // waits 15ms for the servo to reach the position } }

Hi Ray, I guess you didn't get a chance to read my recent Post #192 above. Using a Deltang Rx6x module you can have an "Arduino" board measuring 12mm x 22mm including a 2.4GHz transceiver and a motor bridge . That will fit into most NGauge locos and can run from a single 3.6v LiPo cell. I have nothing against the Picaxe system (I got involved with Arduino by accident) and if there is a matching product it would be great to know about it as it would widen the appeal of the BPR/C concept. ...R

Thanks Stuart, I have programmed Microchip's PIC microcontrollers in the past but never used the Picaxe system. Overall I suspect Microchip and Atmel microprocessors are as good as each other. I only became fond of the Arduino system because Maplin had the Uno boards in stock. Of course if I had gone down the Picaxe route I would not have become involved in programming the Deltang devices. I can't immediately see any indication that Picaxe Basic can be run on an Atmel microcontroller - I suspect the leaders in both camps like to keep things separate! If you are comfortable programming the Picaxe devices you should have no problem figuring out the Arduino system. I suspect (because I don't know it) that the Picaxe system doesn't allow direct access to the underlying microprocessor in the way the Arduino system does. ...R

I discovered recently that the Deltang Rx6x receivers are based on the Atmel Atmega328 microprocessor and can be programmed to be compatible with Arduino devices. http://www.deltang.co.uk/ I bought two Rx6xs and got a lot of advice from DavidT of Deltang and I have now succeeded in getting them so they can be programmed like Arduino devices and can transmit and receive data wirelessly. Using them in this way I reckon one of them could be used as a "transmitter" in conjunction with a PC to controlling a large number of locos and could also receive data from the locos if required. An Rx6x in a loco could be programmed to operate lights and sound and do everything a DCC chip can do. It could probably produce the codes necessary to operate a DCC chip - although I'm not sure that offers any advantage. I have created a Topic about this on the Arduino forum and I have included a link to my explanatory PDF and my demonstration program code. http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=174358.0 I will be happy to answer questions. ...R

You can get all the bits from Deltang except the battery. The receivers just have 4 wires to connect - two to battery and two to motor. Probably less trouble than installing a wired DCC chip. I don't see any information on the Australian site about what their kit contains. Of course if people want to buy locos with the stuff already installed that's a different matter. ...R

That looks very like a Deltang tx21 transmitter. No need to go all the way to Australia! http://www.deltang.co.uk/tx21.htm ...R

Sorry to disappoint you Stuart, but calculators operate on micro-amps and tiny solar cells wouldn't produce nearly enough power for a motor even in bright sunlight. If you want to environmentally conscious I suggest you buy a big solar panel and use it to charge a good-sized 12v battery which you could then use to charge your loco batteries. ...R

Hi Stuart, I won't be at home until Friday so this is a brief comment. I'm using 80ma Turnigy nano cells from Hobby KIng (76p each). They are 7mm diam x 30 mm long and were the smallest I could find with decent capacity. I looked briefly at an exploded diagram of a Grafar 04 diesel shunter (assuming that's what you are talking about) and it seems to have a can motor. If it won't run well on a single cell you should be able to find a 6v equivalent in a suitably sized servo. That's what I did with my class 101 dmu. ...R

I have been dabbling with an Arduino microcontroller for a month or so and it just occurred to me that you can get them (or clones) in very small sizes. For example this Moteino device http://lowpowerlab.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=50 is only 1.3in x 0,9in and includes a radio transceiver. It only costs about £12. You would need some extra hardware to handle the motor power but for less than about £30 it should be possible to have a user programmable microcontroller in a OO/HO or bigger loco with full two-way radio communication. This would be much more versatile than a DCC chip. It wouldn't fit in small NGauge locos but it seems so interesting I think I might buy a few for experimenting. ...R

I'm curious to know what you have in mind for 2-way communication? I can't see it being necessary to make trains go and stop, or to control sound. Also I am curious to know who has this stuff "under development". I'm sorry to be negative but I see this as a case of the best being the enemy of the good. And maybe I am just old and crotchety enough to want to keep things simple and not waste development manpower of fancy trifles. ...R

I think maybe I wasn't clear enough about "easy to install" in my previous post. What I meant was that DCC is not easier to install than installing nothing. There would be nothing to install if the loco comes from the factory ready-to-run with BPR/C as standard. And I think that was/is the thrust of Stuart's original post that started this topic. I have installed DCC on three locos (which are now converted to BPR/C). For the first two I had to get the digihat conversion parts from DCC Supplies and it was very fiddly to fit. Last year I got a class 101 dmu which had a 6 pin DCC socket, but it was very difficult to get the body from the chassis - I was sure I was going to break something. Even now, knowing how to do it I have left the body off until I have completely finished with my BPR/C conversion. And by the way I consider myself fairly competent at tinkering with mechanical and computerised things. It seems that even in the context of DCC the manufacturers are blinkered - knowing that the body has to be removed why didn't they attach it with a simple-to-remove screw. The other thing that may not have been clear in my earlier post is that DCC is only easy if you "get" the overall concept. As far as I can see there are a great many people who have to "get a man in" to change a light bulb or a tap washer - and it seems more and more are growing up without learning any mechanical skills. Some people may be happy to reserve railway modeling for the "elite" that are confident to take things apart and do basic soldering. But I would much rather see it made available to the widest possible selection of the population, including those that are barely competent to insert a mains plug, but who appreciate the aesthetics and history of railways. ...R

I don't agree with some of the assumptions on which RAYMW bases his conclusions. DCC is not easy to add as an afterthought - it's not even physically easy to connect the DCC chips never mind understanding how to code them correctly. And the DCC controllers are far from cheap. I have spent less converting my locos to BPR/C than I spent on a Hornby Elite and decoder chips. Indeed I am hoping I can sell the Elite and recover some of my cost (before everyone turns to BPR/C). My batteries cost 76p each. While a battery-free world might be wonderful I think the more appropriate comparison is whether people would prefer unlimited "intermittent" mains powered running or time limited uninterrupted battery powered running. For me the latter wins hands-down. I do agree that the standards issue is an obstacle and, unfortunately, the many different approaches to BPR/C don't help. Also some people (perhaps those who are already using DCC in a very advanced way) expect BPR/C to offer even more technological advances (such as feedback from the train to the controller) and are scathing of simpler systems. ...R

I was speaking briefly to David Jones of Dapol (I hope I have his name right) at the NGauge Society AGM - he has no plans to introduce radio control because he doesn't believe the batteries give a long enough run time (I hope I am correctly reflecting what he said). Many of the discussions of BPR/C link it with DCC - basically sending the DCC signals by wireless rather than through the track. Personally I think all of these views miss the point of BPR/C - which is that IT JUST WORKS, and you need to know nothing more about electricity or wiring than you do to operate an R/C car. Ok, its very easy to "wire up" the oval of track in a trainset. But as soon as you introduce points you have to understand something about wiring and polarity. And a reversing loop becomes a nightmare of short circuits. And all this before your track gets dirty! People only expect R/C cars, boats and planes to operate for minutes rather than hours and they usually have fast chargers that replenish the batteries in 10 or 15 minutes. I know that at exhibitions some layouts have intercity express trains running continuously round an oval - but I strongly suspect those are unusual cases. The reason for DCC was to allow individual trains to operate simultaneously on the same track, and to improve power pick-up by the use of a higher voltage. You don't need DCC to do that with BPR/C - the Deltang receivers already provide this and have scope for lights and such like. I think the people who insist on linking DCC with BPR/C will be left behind. It should be pretty easy to make an onboard sound system for BPR/C which adjusts the sound according to the output of the PWM power for the motor, though personally I don't think even O Gauge trains have room for big enough speakers for realistic sound so onboard sound is not something I will be experimenting with. ...R

This is very active in the States - see http://freerails.com/view_forum.php?id=45 ...R

Tony, I have no space for trains larger than 2mm scale but I have no objection to discussion of larger scales on this Thread. I Googled "acc+ess protocab" and the results were swamped by websites with the word "access". Googling "protocab" works fine. Is it too late to consider a "more unique" name instead of acc+ess? I have no connection with any manufacturer and I wish you well in your endeavours along with your competitors. However I wonder if you are being too slow releasing product to the market? Deltang seem to have new products or variants on the market every few weeks. ...R

My 2 extra Deltang receivers arrived today. At my request DavidT had set the motor drive channels to 2 and 3 for me before he posted them. It then only took a few minutes each to connect the receivers to the motors (which I had prepared earlier ) and the batteries and bind the receivers to the transmitter. Hey presto all of my fleet (3 locos) now operates by BPR/C. Hooray for BPR/C ... and many thanks to DavidT for excellent service. ...R PS. Frank, that's a clever idea to be able to switch the motor back to normal mode.

One of the things I overlooked in the early stages of my conversion was the need for a switch between the battery and the receiver - as I can't easily open up my loco and remove the battery. In the end I made my own switch from two pieces of brass tube epoxied to the frame. One piece of tube is connected to the battery and the other to the receiver. To "switch on" I insert a piece of brass rod through the 2 tubes to connect them. I hope that makes sense. The whole thing is 2.4mm in diameter by about 10mm long. It could be much smaller if I used smaller tube and shorter pieces - but I happened to have that diameter tube at the time. The smallest commercial switches I have come across are these http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Miniature-Slide-Switches-6V-123404 which were pointed out to me by DavidT from Deltang. The Grafar Class 101 which I am also converting has two small switches on a circuit board - I think they allowed you to select lights - and I may use one of them for the on-off switch on the Class 101 and the other for my Crab. These switches are probably bigger than the ones in the link. ...R