DomDulley

After seeing plans of the old Princetown station on Dartmoor I've tweaked the track plan so that the branch line terminus is similar in design. The up and down main lines still run between the scenic breaks, and everything joins up 'off scene' to a single track running around the attic walls.

The main loop is in place now and I am about to start work on the main scenic area. The whole thing is a mess at the moment!

Here's a short video of the Bachmann 94xx Pannier Tank that Father Christmas brought me having its sound functions tested:

Work has commenced on a smallish (6' x 3') layout in the corner of my attic. A single track will run around the attic walls, splitting into two lines in the scenic area to represent a main line (probably Exeter to Plymouth), which will allow me to run longer trains in a continuous loop.

The scenic area will feature mainline platforms, a goods shed and cattle dock, together with a branch terminus with a small engine shed and limited MPD facilities. It is perhaps unusual in having a thumping great turntable as well, but I want it so that's all I have to say about that 😃 

Anyway, here is the current track plan and I would welcome any comments or suggestions. Red lines are baseboard edges and green scenic breaks.

Thanks!

I've decided on a setting, though I still have to come up with a name. The primary time period will probably be fifties to sixties which will allow me to run steam and green diesel, and with some careful modelling I can also hopefully run some BR Blue in the seventies and eighties.

The layout will model a station at a fictional small port town in the South Hams in Devon, across the river Erme from the real hamlet of Mothecombe

The town sits on a fictional branch line that runs from the main line between Plymouth and Exeter at Ivybridge, and continues through my port town to bring tourists to Bigbury-on-Sea and Burgh Island.

This means that as well as the usual newspapers, fruit, passengers etc., I can bring in china clay, tin, gunpowder and granite from Dartmoor, together with stone from the local quarry, all for loading onto ships. Ships can also deliver goods to be loaded onto outbound services.

This should provide quite a lot of operational interest, but I have also built an Inglenook puzzle into the layout.

The branch line nearest the platform will attach to cassettes on either side of the layout.

Oh, and I've managed to squeeze it into 4 feet, although once I actually lay out some track and test with wagons I may need to extend again.

I welcome any thoughts or suggestions 😊

Hi Jim, I completely agree. The things I find most frustrating about the hobby are unexpected stoppages (especially with sound locos), and certain rolling stock expectedly derailing or uncoupling (they know who they are!). These of course are amplified when slow running.

I managed to get the TMD in my old layout pretty reliable and so I'm hoping that I can manage the same on a smaller scale, although I know it will be a challenge.

Fortunately I have most of what I need for a DCC layout so price won't be a barrier.

Thanks for the replies - some very inspirational stuff in there. 

I'm thinking operational interest should be my first consideration so I am looking into this first and will experiment with some track set up on the dining room table before settling on anything.

Can anyone suggest good resources on railway operations? This is not an area I am familiar with and it's all a bit daunting.

Hello all,

I used to have a garage layout called Coombe Ferrers which I tore down some five years ago to create a space for my then teenage children to hang out with their friends without wrecking the house. I had hoped that by now, with the little feckers grown, I could reclaim the space, but I suspect they will still have need of it for a couple more years at least and quite frankly I can't wait any longer to run some trains.

As a result I have been thinking about creating an end-to-end micro layout in 4mm, perhaps 4 to 5 feet by 1 foot, and with the capacity to add a small fiddle yard or traverser dealio on one or even both ends. Eventually I might incorporate this back into a new garage layout, or maybe it will remain a standalone type thing.

In terms of subject matter I have a number of BR Blue locos and rolling stock so a TMD seems an obvious choice, but I do want a decent amount of operational interest so I was also considering a shunting puzzle, as I have a lot of pre-grouping wagons and would not be averse to getting a little tank engine or such for Christmas. This would also be a bit different to Coombe Ferrers which incorporated an 80s/90s diesel depot (albeit unfinished).

It would also be nice to have a small platform and perhaps a little engine shed and loading stage/parcels shed/cattle dock/etc depending on the setting.

I am well aware that 5'x1' is a very tight space and sacrifices will have to be made, but I was hoping that some of you fine people might be able to provide some inspiration that will help me make a decision and come up with a track plan.

Thank you in advance,

Dom  

I don't think I have posted this on this particular thread.

 

2010_0901Workshop0024.JPG

 

Corkerhill, 1980 ish.

 

Why the 350 was in front of the 20 on the tanks, I have no idea. Perhaps a little vehicle misidentification by the Jocko driver

 

Any use?

 

Regards

 

Ian

Great shot

As your space is limited, you could do without the tank storage siding.

Gateshead Depot had a short fuel discharge siding which would hold three, maybe four, TTA tanks  and had pipes to allow discharge of all of them. Note, the discharge siding would be laid on a concrete apron. Few of the largest, if any, depots in BR days would be capable of handling bogie tanks.

 

The full tanks would be tripped in by the pilot (an 03) from the nearby Tyneside Central Freight Depot at Park Lane (a brake van wasn't used). The tanks would then be shunted, swapping the empties on the fuel road for the fulls being delivered. I believe normally one of the depot pilots would assist in this rather than the TCFD pilot running round. The TCFD pilot would then return there taking the empties away with it. tanks weren't stored elsewhere on the depot.

 

On a small depot stores would be fairly limited, any repair work being done at a main depot. It would still need all the consumables though, as well as fuel, lub oil, anti-freeze, sand (in bags), brake blocks etc.

 

A couple of common mistakes I tend to see on depot layouts; the storage tanks not being large enough, they should be able to hold all the fuel being delivered. Also, as you've correctly said already, locos should normally go onto the fuel point on arrival on depot, not prior to departure.

 

I've a photo somewhere of the fuel tanks and discharge siding at Heaton, which were worked in a similar manner, which I'll try to find and post.

Being on a steep learning curve re operational matters, I'm interesting in how the shunting was carried out on a single fuel road - or is the fuel road different to the fuel siding?

I've found this part of the Gateshead Depot plan - not sure if it's correct but it looks to me like there is a short siding leading to the tanks (marked 'buffer stop'). If this is right and the empties were kept in the siding and then just shunted out to allow full TTAs to come into the siding, where would the empties be shunted to before being taken away? I assume they wouldn't just be left blocking access to anything, or did that happen for short periods?

Agree about the size of the tank.

The turntable implies a legacy GWR shed that has been retained to service diesels.  By the 1980s-1990s most steam era turntables had been removed unless they were somehow necessary either to operate the site efficiently, or because stock needed turning.  Could the turntable be removed?  

 

There is a facing point on the main line which leads straight into the depot.

I've always wanted a turntable - don't know why but I love them - so this one is a legacy from when the imaginary Coombe Ferrers yard serviced steam locos. I figure if it was done at St Blazey it's not too much of a stretch

Good point on the facing point. I should mention that this is an existing layout, and this new plan replaces the current yard which was badly planned. I want to avoid too many changes to the main lines and rest of the layout if possible.

There are prototypical examples of facing points leading to yards (moreso after track simplification I understand), but I agree that it would be better if it was trailing.

The town scene is just a bare board so I will look at shifting it to the right-hand corner and perhaps adding a trailing point on the left.

Thanks Tony!

Hi all,

Comments please on the following design for an 80s/90s TMD in South Devon.

Locos enter the yard and refuel at either side of the two fuel points (FP) before moving onto the headshunt bottom left from where they can either enter the shed or move to the turntable for stabling.

Fuel wagons can be shunted between the discharge siding and the storage siding below it, to which they are delivered.

Does this look fairly prototypical?

Thanks,

Dom

I had a bit of trouble recently fitting a mega bass speaker into the body of a Bachmann 37 (I didn't fancy trying to fit it in the tanks!), so I thought I'd document the process as much for future me as anyone else

An initial fitting of the speaker without its enclosure gave very disappointing results, so I tried removing the fan housing from the 37 body and replaced the fan with some electrical tape. Despite being very careful I still managed to pop out the fine brass grille, and it took a long time and much swearing to fiddle it back into place.

The speaker enclosure still wouldn't fit, so I tried cutting it down but couldn't get it low enough to fit.

Eventually I decided to remove the enclosure again and blutack it to the metal chassis so that the gap below it would do the enclosure's job. This works really well and new the 37 sounds suitably deep and throaty.

I've created a YouTube channel and this is my first attempt at uploading a video. It shows the 37 being put through its paces a bit on the DCC Concepts rolling road I picked up at Warley. I think I'll use a tripod next time

Stoneycombe Quarry between Newton Abbott and Totnes used to be rail served, and supplied ballast. The quarry is still there, as it the shell of the signal box opposite, but the sidings are long gone.

 

The cement works at Westbury used to receive coal from the Midlands by rail, But I don't think the works at Plympton did - maybe they received coal by sea? But coal is a consideration for a cement works. Or is it just a cement distribution terminal, rather than a works, in which case powder in hoppers could be augmented by bags in vans.

 

Plymouth also had bitumen and scrap metal terminals until quite late on, so could provide through traffic for you, as would fuel oil tanks en-route to Laira and Long Rock depots. I'm not sure when the fertilizer vans to Truro ended, but they may also be a possibility, while Falmouth Docks have had a diverse range of traffics in recent decades, although none have lasted long.

Fantastic! I am going to need to invest in more wagons

It's a cement works so I will also need to look into how the coal is delivered.

Brilliant stuff - very useful. Thanks!

I hadn't thought about in such depth. Very interesting. Coombe Ferrers is now located on the South Devon Main Line where it skirts the bottom of the Dartmoor National Park, so Meldon is pretty much directly north and not too far away.

 

I had envisaged a little diorama next to the track with a pile of ballast and a JCB to load it into wagons, but I could also have a truck bringing it in from Meldon. Or was ballast always loaded at larger facilities?

I should also clarify: the cement works and the ballast sidings would not be connected. Just two different parts of the layout.

Ballast suggests a limestone or granite quarry with a crusher.  Quick and very basic geology lesson; limestone ballast is usually taken from Carboniferous Limestone deposits more than 350 million years old and located in the Yorkshire Dales, Peak District, the eastern parts of North Wales and around the South Wales coalfield, and in the Forest of Dean.  Dartmoor granite from Meldon near Okehampton is used as well.

I hadn't thought about in such depth. Very interesting. Coombe Ferrers is now located on the South Devon Main Line where it skirts the bottom of the Dartmoor National Park, so Meldon is pretty much directly north and not too far away.

I had envisaged a little diorama next to the track with a pile of ballast and a JCB to load it into wagons, but I could also have a truck bringing it in from Meldon. Or was ballast always loaded at larger facilities?

Have you got a freight traffic generating industry as part of your layout location scenario? (Meltdown Quarry?) Anything that requires vehicles to bring in and/or carry out loads, especially if demand, supply or production is somewhat irregular, giving the opportunity for some pseudo random variation in traffic to be generated.

I am planning a cement works at the end of a single track line. I also thought about some sidings to fill up engineers' wagons with ballast.

Now I have a clearer idea of where Coombe Ferrers is, I can look into what freight would be passing through as well.

I wouldn't worry too much about the wrong road running, so long as you can see it being allowed by the signals, which will be the explanation for it.

That makes me feel better. Signalling is something else I am struggling to get to grips with.

I'm far from a rivet-counter but I like things to be right.

I operate on Lostock Junction at Windermere. 

Links:

http://www.theplatelayers.org/coupling/LostockJunctionnew.pdf

http://www.theplatelayers.org/coupling/Lostock%20Junction%20Railway%20Revisited%20Website%20Version.pdf

 

This is a large layout -- at the last sesssion we were short handed with 9.

Mike adapted the 1954 summer timetable but compressed it to try to have a move every 5 minutes. This is actually pretty intense operation as most of the trains need the locomotive changed or turned. The operating pattern is that we send trains out from Windermere and the circulate in the other room (and a bit in our room) until they're due back in. The coaching stock goes out with one identity (10:50 to Euston) and comes back as the 14:45 from Manchester.  Windermere is scale size with a couple of crossovers moved to ease operation and a huge engine faciity.

The last link was a talk Mike gave for some Canadian modellers.

Wow - amazing layout!

The talk was super useful, and given me lots of ideas for planning a timetable. Thanks very much

I can't see it on the signalling diagram (but that website is another one which you can spend hours watching).

 

As for layout timetabling, I always start with the actual service in the area I imagine the layout to be, and then adapt from there. I wouldn't worry too much about wrong line running, if it is properly signalled. The Falmouth line from Truro to Penwithers Junction is bi-directional on the Down Line, and it even goes through a tunnel doing so, so there's a local-ish example.  

Another fantastic website! Thanks, Adrian. I will have to figure out what it all means, which might help with my understanding of signalling too.

Good to know about the Truro to Penwithers line too -- I will investigate further!

If I have understood correctly, trains can only get out from your storage sidings in one direction. That will make any sort of timetabled operation on the double-track loop rather difficult unless you can provide some more storage that they can run into.

 

Is the junction onto the single track line on the scenic part of the layout? If so, the timetable will be that much more complicated to take account of the junction.

 

As Ian says, you really need to imagine the rest of the railway and plan trains originating elsewhere and going elsewhere.

Yes, this a big headache which I am hoping to address by adding a fiddle yard to the main loop for trains to move to and from.

Getting from the single track to the main also involves a short section of wrong direction running in a scenic section which is particularly galling. I wish I'd given more thought to operations when I planned it, but it's all one big learning curve

As it happens I will be in that part of the world tomorrow afternoon, heading for Torre, probably changing at Newton Abbot. I will look out for Coombe Ferrers.

If you could let me know where it is precisely, that will save me some time

Only useful resource I can provide, as such, is the Real Time Trains website - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Using the advanced search function, you can see all the services through a given location over a certain time frame, as well as clicking on individual services to see where they’re pathed, when they run, etc. Some paths are reserved as ‘runs when required’ and any short-term planned or very-short-term planned services will show up, so you can see the less usual traffic flows as well.

 

I’ve attempted running a timetable in the past. Actually, depending on my mood, it sometimes detracted from my enjoyment - my fiddle yard lacked the capacity for everything to be set out from the start, so it involved a reasonable degree of manual intervention to work.

 

I’d say the easiest way to do this though is to site your layout in a real location, even if the location itself is fictional. This could be a specific point or just a general area along a certain line. Immediately from this, you get traffic flows, normal stock and rough timings to form the basis of your timetable.

 

Then tweak until you’re content. If it’s looking a bit bare, you could fit some additional services in - a two-hourly service between two places could become hourly, etc. You have your bay platform and industry to utilise. So is the branch service timed to connect with a through service? How often is the industry served? Which direction do the empties arrive from? Where do the loaded trains go?

 

A lot depends on your track configuration too. It may be helpful to try and find a real location that’s broadly similar and find out what goes on there. Swindon springs to mind from your description, although I guess it’s probably a bit bigger and more complex...?

Great site! Really informative. I'm going to have a lot of fun playing with that

Another thing to think about is whether you are going to operate to real time or just a sequence.  Real time can be done with a battery clock with an on/off switch in circuit so that you can start and stop 'layout time' at the beginning and end of each operating session.  Sequence is just a matter of running trains in a set order.

 

Either will provide the structure and operational discipline you need to avoid just playing trains, not that there's anything wrong with just playing trains.  If you use real time, you must factor in the time needed for any shunting operations to keep them out of the way of the timetabled trains, but I get the impression that this is not a big part of your operations.  Modern passenger operations tend to be in hourly or similar repeating patterns, as Joseph has said; freight is less predictable from a lineside observer's point of view unless he has a working timetable to refer to, but will usually be timed to avoid conflict with the passenger trains as much as is possible.  Engineer's and similar traffic runs as required, and uses the spare paths built in to the WTT; it is that much less predictable, and you'd be fine just running one when you felt like it for most purposes, but it'll help if you build spare paths in to your timetable or sequence.

 

I operate to real time, but on a quiet branch allow myself to compress time between trains so that not too much time is spent admiring the scenery and listening to the imaginary stream, rain, and bleating sheep (I model South Wales in the 50s).  On most real railways, even fairly busy main lines, nothing much happens and no trains are in sight or earshot for the great bulk of the time.

I've just run in sequence so far - real time hadn't occurred to me but I will try both and see which works best for me. Something else I was going to try was creating a card for each movement and drawing them randomly, although I can see this might cause some headaches.

I also forgot to mention there is a TMD attached to the station, so there is more operating potential there: perhaps swapping locos on a passenger service as well as bringing in fuel and light engines for servicing/stabling.

Trains, passenger or freight, run from A to B, but let’s imagine you have modelled C, through which all those trains run, or stop or start. So you need to think where the various As and Bs are. Perhaps one A might be London - how many miles is that? So how long would an HST take to reach C? And so on for each of the other passenger train origins and destinations. Then a similar exercise for the freight. Now you need to identify the infrastructure eitger side of your layout. Passing loops or rail-served industries, anything that affects trains before or after C.

 

Any of this sound sensible?

Eminently sensible

I should have mentioned earlier that the layout is the fictional town of Coombe Ferrers, set somewhere in Devon, so I guess the HST would be running between Penzance and Paddington, maybe 3 or 4 hours from each. 

This is a good way of looking at things. I have deliberately avoided placing the location too firmly but now I will in order to figure all this stuff out. I guess Coombe Ferrers will be on the main line between Exeter and Plymouth (where I grew up).

The art of timetabling has not really changed that much.

 

But, with the advent of much faster running on freight,and fixed formation passenger trains it has tended to become a bit simpler. So many timetables on busy routes will show the same pattern of trains every hour with paths left for all the regular passenger trains running at xx minutes past the hour and some paths left for freight - not all of which would actually be used.

 

A bit more detail about your layout might help someone give a more detailed reply.

Thanks Joseph.

I have a lower level storage yard linked to a continuous loop by a single track up a gentle gradient. The main loop has two lines, a station with two through platforms and a bay, a short scenic section and a couple of long storage sidings. There is a also the stub of a branch line rising up to what will eventually be a cement works.

For passenger services I have an HST, a two-car DMU, and a class 50 hauling 4 Mk2 coaches. I will shortly be adding a Regional Railways 37 with a 5 coach rake of Mk2D's.

Freight is a 37 usually hauling 6 or 7 TTAs, a Railfreight 58 pulling a mix of open and closed wagons, and a 26 used as an an engineers' train at the moment.

I've been running the HST through the station, and using the 50 to stop and run around to depart in the other direction. The DMU just shuttles in and out of the bay.

Sometimes the freight trains trundle through, or I might stop one, run around and pull them out the other way too.

It's fun, but my knowledge of prototype operations is limited and I feel I could be getting a lot more out of this if I was pointed in the right direction.

Looking at that plan, I would use the short turntable road as the entry via a double slip on the first shed road, changing the second shed road to a three way point for access to the headshunt for the fuel tank. That will allow movement from the fuel roads or shed direct to the turntable and vice versa.

If you then use a three way point at the headshunt and link that to an extra point for FP2, you have a run round loop for your tank movements. Just ideas....

 

Dave

Good suggestions, Dave.

I actually have a couple of three way points in the yard at the moment and I want to move away from them, as I'm finding them a right pain to operate from a control panel.

I'm also loath to use a double slip (as much as I would love to), as Peco don't do an electrofrog version in code 100 so I think I will be asking for trouble

Your ideas are excellent though, so I'll see if I can achieve something similar with standard points.

Cheers!