BMacdermott

I am sure you know that you will get 100 replies with 100 different models. Why not use that annual poll thing?

Hello Dave

As a member of The MREmag & RMweb Wishlist Poll Team, I sent you the full results of last April's Poll while you were at Dapol. If you didn't get them, or would like them again, please feel free to PM me. I can let you have them in various combinations (eg just Top 50 etc).

Brian Macdermott

Hello Gilbert

I agree with pretty much all of the foregoing. There is no possibility of getting a full set of photos of every daylight hour train on a particular day nor is there is much likelihood of getting a full set of guards’ journals.

Even those can have errors, as they were sometimes written by lamplight or perhaps numbers were inadvertently transposed. I have a set from the S&D which were kept by a man I know to have shown ‘due diligence and professionalism’ for his work, but those contain the odd error here and there.

Even if a carriage number is given, there would be no way of knowing if it was red & cream or maroon etc unless you have photographic evidence from elsewhere.

Sadly, a sample page from a WR Through Carriage Working Programme illustrating Stationmaster’s comment of how the amendments were amended won't load here; I'll send it to you via email shortly.

As you know, I am a great fan of CWNs etc, but I only take them as ‘documents of interest’ – not ‘fact’. I liaise very closely with ex S&D Driver, Peter Smith. He can cite numerous examples of Bournemouth area loco rosters which state a booked movement as (whatever) but he knows full well that the movement was never undertaken as booked because local men worked to their own convenience. On occasion, ‘Head Office instructions’ would actually be impossible to comply with!

Perhaps 1958 per se is too limiting? Why not consider “Peterborough North as it was in the late 50s”. When I see your photos, I am in no doubt where I am geographically and chronologically (give or take a year or two). If you were modelling, say, the Lyme Regis branch, then a particular year (or month) might be reasonably practical.

Your layout has given us all so much pleasure – but it is only right and proper that you should have the greatest pleasure from it. As the Californians used to say back in the 60s: Hang loose, man!

On the subject of longer trains, I have taken the weights out of all my RTR coaches and wagons as well as many tenders of steam locos. A Hornby Gresley gangwayed coach out of the box weighs around 145 grams. Of that, 35 grams is a chunk of metal which can be removed. In other words (ignoring axle and flange friction etc) you can run four ‘de-weighted’ coaches for the same general effort as three ‘weighted’ ones.

Brian

Hello Gilbert

I'll be making my own comment later as I am out. I think you will find it in agreement with the foregoing but will add some weight to the argument.

Regards

Brian

I spoke with Gilbert and he suggested that I post the following as it seems to ‘round out’ the fish story.

Mention was made of the fish trains to Banbury. In fact, these ran right through to Marston Sidings (Swindon) via Oxford. There were four trains per day in 1954, but only three in 1959, thus:

1.04pm Grimsby (Oxford arr 8.02pm, dep 8.20pm)

Formed: Fish Vans for Swindon and West at front; SR via Basingstoke; Reading; Oxford; Brake Swindon. The SR traffic was detached at Oxford and attached to the 6.00pm from Worcester.

(Note: A GWR Journal article about Oxford in the early 50s states that Fish Vans for Oxford and Reading were detached from behind a Brake Van. The Trains Illustrated article mentioned earlier stated that the 1.04pm on the day of the author’s visit was booked for 35 vans and was seen being worked by 61836 and 61066.)

12.50pm Hull (Oxford arr 8.47pm, dep 8.55pm)

Formed: Fish Vans for Swindon and West at front; Oxford; Slough; Reading.

6.45pm Hull (Oxford arr 3.30am, dep 3.44am)

Oxford booklet simply says ‘Fish – detach as required. LMR engine through’.

Vans from the West Country (and Oxford etc) were returned on the 3.35pm Swindon to Hull/Grimsby. According to the caption of a picture on page 81 of Rail Centres: Oxford, Swindon provided an ex-works engine on a running-in turn for this train. The picture shows a Castle, and the second vehicle is one of the 6-wheel Insul-x-Fish Vans (some of which, although being WR, were branded for use on Aberdeen trains – but probably too late for Gilbert’s layout).

In 1957, Fish Vans from King’s Cross were worked to the SR by:

10.45pm SX to Clapham (Grimsby traffic);

11.28pm to London Bridge (Grimsby traffic);

11.38pm to Clapham (Hull & Grimsby traffic);

11.43pm to London Bridge (Hull & Grimsby traffic).

In another SR CWN, six Fish Vans were specifically noted returning from Bournemouth to Neasden. Interestingly, plate 37 in the Middleton Press book, Marylebone to Rickmansworth, shows a train of (mostly) Fish Vans from Feltham to Neasden.

Coming back to the GN…..

Trains Illustrated March 1958 noted that of the 275 fish vans for conversion to ‘Blue Spot’, 100 were to be done at Cowlairs; 88 at York; and 87 at Doncaster. 100 were ready by mid-January.

In the Motive Power notes, TI for the same month reported that 92034 (35A) had been working the 8.25am King’s Cross-New Clee Fish Empties frequently during December 1957 and January 1958.

The April issue noted: ‘A new braked goods train composed of the empty roller bearing fish vans for Aberdeen leaves King’s Cross in the mid-morning. It is worked by a New England engine which arrives at 5.55am and usually a V2 or 9F is used. On February 8 and 10, however, Nos.60146 and 60140 of York respectively were employed. There is now only one Grimsby fish train to King’s Cross in the evening and consequently the 8.25am fish empties from King’s Cross to New Clee is no longer worked by an Immingham K3, but by a New England V2 or 9F’.

Brian

Hello Gilbert

Sorry, I should have made it clearer that I was posting the reference purely in respect of the reporting number in the caption - not the photo or the actual train in it.

In respect of the vans and Conflat: E87236 could well have been Blue Spot by then (with roller bearings) but E75137 is one of the earlier batches that remained oil box. The Conflat theoretically should have had roller bearings, but a Don Rowland photo shows one without (although that was probably a 'rogue').

Brian

Hello Brian,

 

Apologies.   I stand corrected.   My source was a publication, NOT a BR pamphlet, and it states that the roller bearing fitted vans were put into service in 1959/60, on the Aberdeen - King's Cross fish trains specifically,  there being 3 sets which worked in a "merry go round" system.

 

gresley

Hello Gresley

I wonder if the article was referring to the batch built in 1959 that had roller bearings from new?

Brian

G. Freeman Allen wrote a 2-part article entitled Day Trip to Grimsby which might help. Part one was pp239-242 in Trains Illustrated May 1958. Part two followed in the June issue on pp.314-318.

Brian

Hello Gilbert

I don't have a WTT for 1958, but Peter Coster in his book The Book of the Great Northern (p.154) mentions an 11.30am empties (as opposed to 11.40am), and says the reporting number was No.264 Down.

I'll see if David Percival can confirm.

Although I haven’t seen it myself (so cannot say whether it will help you) BRM December 2000 carried an article entitled Evolution of the BR Blue Spot Fish Vans.

(Note to Gresley: Many thanks for coming back. Appreciated.)

Incidentally, I have trawled through many books, but haven’t yet come up with any distinct Blue Spot trains. I’m pretty certain there is a photo possibly of Hatfield showing a couple of Blue Spot branded vans in the yard.

Brian

Hello again, Gresley.

In his book, King's Cross Lineside, 1958-1984, David Percival wrote (p.68):

In order to improve deliveries from the last-mentioned port, roller bearing axleboxes were fitted to a batch of the most modern vans in the late 1950s. Known as 'blue spots', from their prominent identification marking, the vans were rostered at the beginning of 1958 to the 12.30pm from Aberdeen and the return 'empties' from King's Cross at 11.40am.

I will be speaking with David in the next few days and will check this with him.

Brian

Hello Gresley

I’d be interested to hear why you think that.

The Railway Observer of February 1958 carried the following report (pp47-48):

Blue Spot Fish Special

Commencing on 20^th January, the 12.30pm Aberdeen to King’s Cross inaugurated under this name the use of the first of 275 fish vans which are being fitted with roller bearing axle boxes for use on express fish trains. Each van so fitted has a distinctive circle in blue, fifteen inches in diameter, on a white background on each side. Those who travel on the GN main line will in future suffer only the smell of fish when passed by one of the Aberdeen fish trains; no longer should there be the combination of burning axle box or delays due to stoppages when nearing the end of the 523-mile run.

And in his book The Eastern Since 1948, G Freeman Allen wrote (p.130):

One rail traffic of the ER’s which the 1955 strike condemned to a slow death was fish. In 1957-8 BR tried to staunch the drain of the Scottish business by fitting roller bearings to 275 postwar, brake-fitted fish vans so as to eradicate the hot box delays prevalent on the overnight trains from Northeast Scotland to the south. The publicity departments were mobilised to promote the 12.30 Aberdeen-King’s Cross as the ‘Blue Spot Special’, playing on the blue circle which was then the identification mark of roller bearing-fitted vehicles, but by then they were already shouting into the wind.

Brian

Hello Gillbert

I have extracted the following from some BR Circulars of 1958. It looks to me as though you are perfectly OK to run Blue Spots in 1958.

Brian

4 Jan 1958       

Fish Vans E87000-E87274 urgently required by C&WE, Doncaster for equipping with roller bearing axleboxes and lettering “To work between Aberdeen and King’s Cross only”.

15 Mar  1958

Fish Vans E87000 to 87274 not bearing the Blue Spot identification are still required at Doncaster

2 Aug 1958

Aberdeen – London Fish Vans still sought:

E87086, E87114, E87131, E87161, E87179.

23 Aug 1958

Aberdeen-London Fish Trains. E87179 still sought by C&WE Doncaster.

Hello Ben

Thank you for posting the CADs.

You may recall that the Wishlist Poll Team assisted with some outline notes for you last year. I approached Team Member, John Lewis (author of numerous GWR rolling stock books), on your behalf as he is not an RMweb member. He sent me the following notes for you, but has asked me to point out that these are not ‘criticisms’ – simply comments for consideration.

Kind regards

Brian Macdermott

Notes from John Lewis

I expect they have found the pictures in Russell GW Coaches AppendixVol 2, (RCA2 below) Figs 374 - 376 and GW Coaches Part 2, Pg 202.

Much depends on how detailed and accurate the NGS want to be, but perhaps the following might be of help:

1. The bogies should have steps at both ends of each bogie.

2. I am not sure what the central box on the underframe represents. I don't think it is in Russell's pictures. There should be a dynamo. No.147 (RCA2 Fig 376), was fitted with a “combined gas radiator and food warmer" in October 1947. It would have had a gas cylinder fitted to the underframe at that time which probably when this photo was taken. Note the round white dial of the pressure gauge! The NGS may well wish to leave this gas cylinder to the modeller.

3. The roof ventilator over the guard's compartment should be in line with the left hand edge of the non-opening window. In fact, they should check all the roof ventilator positions with RCA2 Fig 376. The capping strips over the ends of the roof panels were almost invisible in service.

4. I think there should be two end steps above the gangway connectors.

5. The gangway connector suspension brackets may be rather far apart. The rods that hang down from them are quite close to the connector sides, and are quite slim.

6. End detail: The electrical cables shown on the end drawing were not straight but bowed slightly. I think there should be an angled handle low down on the ends each side, a horizontal one above them, just below the level of the bottom of the window and there should be the long handles that reach the roof.

7. Don't forget the other side of the coach was different - see RCA2 Fig 374 and 375. The guard's doors had a long vertical commode handle on the coach body to the right. The guard's doors had a step directly underneath them hung off the solebars and not slightly to one side as drawn.

8. Brake rodding and steampipe missing.

Hello

 

I'm planning a layout of Newton abbot station an depot in BR steam days an I'm still struggling to find out stuff about it. I'm lacking pictures! I've looked on google images an there's only a handful on there of any use! I've not got any real good photos of the engine shed area or coaling stage! I only live 10 mins from Newton abbot an luckily the carrage shed an workshop are still there but now used for other things! Any help ,pictures or advice would be great an very much appreciated.

 

Cheers Neil

Hello Neil

A book worth getting is: Scenes from the Past No.19 - Railways in and around Newton Abbot. (CR Potts - Foxline) I have a certain amount of other material that might help you - please feel free to PM me.

Brian Macdermott

Hello Tony

The attached might be of interest. It is from a Special Train Arrangements booklet for Sunday 4 October 1953.

Brian Macdermott

Hello Tony

I wonder if you might consider giving us some thoughts in the future on articulated stock; maybe Quad- and/or Quint-Arts as a starter?

I'd love to see these made in rtr form, but wonder how they would go round 2nd radius curves. Easy enough to have them prototypically 'closed up' on the straight, but not so easy on curves, I would guess. 

Perhaps some form of ‘clever design’ would be needed??

This is probably not the right place to pose the question, but is there any photographic evidence of Quad-Arts running as 4-coach sets? An article I have seen states that the 4.06pm Hitchin-Sandy (late 1950s) was run as such – but Carriage Working Notices suggest eight coaches. (I am aware of the fact that the Quad-Arts were designed to run as 8-coach sets due to the layout of the accommodation.)

Many thanks

Brian Macdermott

Great news for Bachmann and the Bluebell!

The Brighton Atlantic was in overall 17th position in the MREmag & RMweb Wishlist Poll 2013 (and 16th in 2012).

Brian

Hello Tony

Very many thanks indeed for the comprehensive reply (#311) to my posting about the 4F chimney. Much appreciated. I have the book you mention and have found the photo.

I'm a bit of a pedant when it comes to running qualities of locos (and stock) and can assure you that the original tender-drive on this one is excellent. The term 'well-oiled sewing machine' springs to mind. I have live frog Code 75 diamond crossings and the loco falters not one iota when negotiating these - even at the slowest of speeds. Even though I have 'close-coupled' the loco to tender, I found yesterday that it will go round radius one curves (which I have in my reverse loop hidden sidings). Much as I dislike traction tyres, this loco will be one of my favourites for many years to come, I'm sure.

I look forward to reading more on rolling stock. I have long campaigned for the makers to balance loco production with coaching stock.

Kind regards

Brian

Hello Tony

Could you tell me what chimney you used for your 4F in posting #239, please? Is it by Alan Gibson?

I'm working on my own 4F as result of your photo!

I have made the tender closer-coupling to the loco by replacing the existing connection with a shorter one made from plasticard (as I'm not a 'metalworker' like you). The loco still goes round second radius no problem, but looks a lot more 'realistic'. Having fitted a fallplate (which hides the plasticard connector), it just awaits a crew and some weathering (apart from the chimney).

Although I'm using the Hornby (China-made) body, driving wheels and tender top, I am still using the original Airfix motor and tender base from an older model (probably from the late 70s) - it is really smooth running and barely audible at freight train speed.

Many thanks for sparking the idea.

Brian

I would like to add my compliments to all the others on Simon’s layout – a really ‘different’ idea that will surely be an attraction at any show.

By coincidence, my son Andrew has recently started making ‘small houses’ as part of his pottery enterprise, and they are proving very popular. All are unique as they are handmade. The one in the picture is about the size of a large loaf of bread. I assure you it is pottery and not cake!

Full details can be found on his website or Facebook page.

http://www.andrewmacdermott.com

http://www.facebook.com/AmPottery

Brian

Hello Gilbert

With regard to Springside lamps, I always give mine a tiny dab of superglue on the jewel while they are still on the sprue and let that dry. When drilling the hole in the base, I hold the lamp upside down in a vice (with the jewel facing one of the open ends of course!) and aim slightly off-centre towards the rear of the lamp.

Regards

Brian

Hello Gilbert

Those photos really capture the essence! Many thanks.

Brian

Hello Gilbert

This is my first posting to your pages, although I have been following your progress for a long time. What a layout!

Thank you for the posting you sent to MREmag about the way I operate my own layout - much appreciated.

I have some related railway documents that might be of interest to you (with my compliments). I'm afraid I don't know how to 'PM' you. However, if you would like to email me as below, that would be great.

Regards and many thanks to you and all the contributors who are making these pages so good.

Brian Macdermott

brianmacdermott(at)hotmail(dot)com

Hello Oz

I have just caught up with your posting No.30. Could you email that link to me at: ThePollTeam@gmail.com? Author John Lewis is a member of The Poll Team, and I'm sure he will be able to help you.

Brian Macdermott

Hello Oz

This operation would be great with DCC (which I don't have in 00, but did have some years ago on a US N layout, so I make the comment with some DCC experience).

On my analogue 00 layout, I bank freights up a gradient using the time-honoured cab control system. As the freights are very slow, there is no problem with flicking the handful of section switches as they proceed. The Brake Van and Banker have normal 'hook & bar' couplers - but with the hooks removed. When the summit is reached, the Banker simply drops off.

If a DCC-fitted Slip Coach had similar couplings, it could be independently driven to a stand in the station whilst the main train flies through. Or, could be brought to stand at a convenient point (perhaps a through road at a station), then combined as a consist with your Station Pilot and shunted accordingly.

Brian

 

Does anyone have an opinion in favour of one diagram or the other?

Hello Matt

As you know, John Lewis (with me and others) is a member of The MREmag & RMweb Wishlist Poll Team. in 2012, we only listed the K42 - and that was based on them lasting slightly longer and having the wider availability. However, as you say, it is a very close call as to which would be the better to produce. We have already amended the text for 2013 to list them both.

If you would like me to, I can ask for opinions from the MREmag readership (many of whom don't read RMweb).

Brian Macdermott