The Nth Degree

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Thanks for the update Steve - that must be a huge disappointment for you after all the positive development work back in the early days. To have to find a new factory at this late stage must have made you want to give up in view of the additional costs. I admire your determination to carry on . . . .

 

Hope you are feeling better now - I saw the empty chair at Bristol (it was supporting an enlarged copy of your email !)

 

Mike

 

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It's really unfortunate that this is not looking hopeful. The Rustons will now likely have to drop to the back of the queue behind the 50s.

Ruston 48DS update

Apologies for not having any updates on this project for so long. Simply and frankly put, the pre-production samples sent to me so far have not been worth showing.

Although the production of the parts has been of very high quality, the assembly and finishing of the model has not met LLC quality standards so each batch sent to date has been rejected. There is a possibility that the Rustons will have to go to another factory, which will take a long time to organise and facilitate.

This has had an adverse affect on the other models in our production schedule, not least the funding of the Class 22. While I work with the factory to resolve assembly and finishing issues on the Rustons I must look at an alternative funding method for the Class 22. News on that next week, but I'm looking at crowdfunding.

As the Class 22 is a much more technical model than the Ruston, the 22 will now not be produced in the UK. Unfortunately it looks like the UK manufacturing experiment has failed.

Agreed Mark. What we have done on the Class 22 gearbox is the have fixed stainless steel axles in the gearbox with the gears running loose on it (approx 0.1mm free play). There is no mechanical drip on the gearbox axles, so this pre-loaded compound stress on the (sometimes) fragile gears around the axle is eliminated. The only problem left to eliminate is torque on the teeth.

The motor we are using for this exercise has 25g/cm torque at the shaft, but this will obviously increase down the geartrain, so once we have worked out what this is once the geartrain has been designed we can then select appropriate materials.

While compatible track geometry is being worked on, attention turns to drivetrain friction and current collection.

We now have a couple options on motor choice, both virtually friction-free, but more about those another time. We can design a gearbox similar to what we have designed for our recently announced Class 22 – it's compact and very efficient. Acetal gears running on stainless steel rod will be as good as or better than micro ball bearings, plus take up less space (see the bogie below to illustrate how even the smallest ball bearings are very large at this scale).

We are looking at a number of methods to carry the reduced drive to the bogies, so more about that another time, but drive will be transmitted to the inner axles of the bogies. We also working on axle-to-axle drive too, with worm gears and belts an option, along with a micro compound geartrain. Axle bearing friction is the last efficiency problem in the chain, and as you can see, bearings are possible using the 1x3mm type, but take up a lot of Y elevation of the bogie block, forcing it to be larger than it needs to be. This will make covering it with accurate cosmetic bogie frames more difficult – probably impossible.

The solution we will be testing is a graphalloy sleeve/bushing. This has several advantages: carbon alloy is very low friction and self lubricating, so presents maintenance-free operation. Bushings can be made much smaller than bearings, enabling a much more prototypical bogie frame height. Finally, and importantly, it carries current so allows pick-up from the bogie frame and not friction-based types on the wheel. To complete the bogie frame construction, the two sections are fixed together with nylon screws with an insulator at the joins.

While this theoretical work continues I'm very keen to hear feedback and any improvements to the design of the components as we go.

Thanks, Steve

Did you start a layout thread Justin?

Thank you Mark, your layout and stock is absolutely lovely!

I've seen Mr Yallop's layouts before – very well modelled. I'm sure I remember seeing a J15? It looked like the boiler was made from the motor barrel. I will have a look for Brian Harrap's work and see if we can have a chat.

Thank you for the info and links.

Steve

Thank you! I was not aware of this company.

Couplings, control and other technical problems can't be tackled until the basics are sorted. The most obvious of those is the relationship between wheel and track, and as mentioned earlier, the current standard is rather course.

Rail is one supply problem, and one that I'd rather not solve, but as I now have an ideal railhead width of 0.5mm maximum we can source anything that exists already. There is a supply in the US, but I prefer something closer to home, and a possibility does exist.

Next, wheels and current collection. Anything this small will suffer disproportionately with friction, so a split frame/axle solution is the better bet by far. No rubbing pick-ups to worry about. Looking at diesel loco wheels in particular, at this scale we can pretty much produce just one size without any noticeable differences in variances in A1A bogies, for example, or between prototypes.

If we assume the above is the standard we are aiming at we can then design the track system to accommodate. Being all new means we don't have any legacy track systems to marry up with.

Kitpart Ltd is now formally active and has its own email address.

Please contact sales@kitpart.co.uk with any enquiries. We welcome anything; parts and complete kits of any scale – as long as they fit on our machine.

Thanks, Steve

The info I have is fine for now, although a confirmation of the FB railhead would be nice. I would imagine it would be the same as BH, however.

Nothing sinister in my enquiry at all, but can't really give any details yet.

Thanks for the help Jim.

Thanks Martin, but I don't need help using Templot. I have a project I'd like to talk to you about.

I sent an email to Templot's webmaster email hoping it would get forwarded on.

Cheers, Steve

Hello Martin, I've been trying to contact you without luck so far. Can you send me a PM please? Delete this when you've done so. Thanks, Steve.

Thanks, I'd like both please. I'm not a member of the Assoc. so I don't have the handbook. Measurements would be fine, especially the principle measurements of railhead and rail height in mm (or fractions of) please. Thanks.

Theoretical work continues on the Z project, but existing standards are not satisfactory for what we are planning. To overcome this shortfall a whole new approach is required, starting from the relationship between wheel and track. In effect, what we're proposing is Z Fine. Here's a comparison between existing standards, accurate scale, and what we're proposing:

A fairly good halfway house.

Developing a potential new standard is opening up a lot of opportunities, especially in regards to control. For example, current Z control systems are 10V, but why not 9V, or even 5V so it can be run from USB? Imagine plugging in a whole layout to your computer, opening up an app and away you go – complete control from your desktop or tablet. USB has a data protocol built in, so could be adapted for use. Limited (milli)amps requires a very efficient electrical network and usage, so this will be the next challenge.

Hello, does anyone have an accurate section drawing of the rail available from the 2mm Association please?

I've had a lot of emails about the Class 50 yesterday and today, so I'll put up the response here so it's public.

Yes, we are still producing it (the most common question by far!). The Class 50 will have the same brand new modular electrical system. We designed this for every model, not just the 22. That means it will have the same features – built-in capacitors, replaceable parts and room for growth in whatever way you want to take it, including all the plumbing and cabling for smoke. It will use a bigger motor (the loco is almost half a metre long!) and the same efficient but compact inboard gearbox. The bogies will also be fully detailed, including dummy traction motors. We are looking at an off-board amplifier to power two of these unique speaker systems, so it will sound as good as it looks too.

We are well aware that we are in direct competition with another manufacturer, but with the same estimated price point we hope that you will reward the effort we are putting in to giving you the most advanced, accurate and value for money models as possible, produced as much as we can in the UK.

The Class 50 will also be the last model we openly announce before the EP1 stage. There are a lot of projects at various stages of development, so the next few years are going to be very busy!

I've yet to see smoke coming from a model that looks anything like the smoke one expects to see from the real thing.  Technology might surprise me though.

 

John

I'm afraid all modellers are constrained by physics, but there's nothing to say we can't try!

...I love the engineering and ethos.

 

One slight concern, if Im reading this right, the model comes supplied with smoke and speakers-even if one doesnt want smoke or sound (does it come sound decoder fitted?)?

 

ATVB

 

CME

As Paul says, the smoke unit is an option, but all the plumbing and wiring is there if you want to install it later. The sound decoder will even include all the correct settings so you won't have to worry about that either – just plug in, top it up and off you go. Smoke is not a hugely popular upgrade at the moment, but perhaps if all the planning and thinking has been done already it could well be. 

Sound is becoming more and more important to modellers, just have a look at all the threads about butchering models to put a speaker in. It makes total sense to me (at least) to build it in from the start. You'll never have to risk an expensive purchase again. Plus, of course, if you decide to sell it later there is more value in a sound-ready model than not.

We go through an awfully long planning process when designing new models, and all the work that has gone into this one will stand us in good stead for the next couple years or so. Well, until we get to steam locos, and then you're in for a brand new engineering revolution...

Apologies, it's been a busy day today.

Yes, RMWeb is the 'official' online announcement point, FB is mostly for daily chat and for when you have got to know something immediately. There's also a healthy folllowing of Class 15 owners who can help each other out with detailing, DCC and just showing their models. There's not too much more that's revealed there that isn't here - although that depends on whether I'm in an excited mood or not!

Sadly, after reviewing recently supplied costs, I had to inform my retailers today the the next model will not be available for resale, so the only place you'll be able to purchase one is direct from LLC, either on the website or from shows.

The website is undergoing a much-needed revamp at the moment, mostly on the back end admin side. This is (of course!) delayed. It should have been completed by now, but will be ready by the end of the month - which is a slight disappointment considering what is happening tomorrow...

Good night all!

While planning I've stumbled upon a query and possible problem; couplings. Would modellers in this scale want to regularly couple/uncouple individual wagons or coaches. My guess is probably not, and it's far more likely to organise stock in pre-designated trains – I would imagine shunting in such a small scale would present many problems on its own, with couplings being the least of them. There are several types anyway, so which would one choose?

It would be far easier to design a proprietary loco-based train uncoupler rather than individual vehicle uncouplers. But I welcome any thoughts.

Yes, 6.52mm track with 1:220 scale models. Actually I wasn't aware there were any other Z gauge scales, apart from narrow gauge N.

Friction is the killer at these tiny sizes so I'm eliminating as much of that as possible. The next biggest hurdle is mass, but I may have a plan for that. Other than those, it's all about miniaturisation. It's definitely going to be fun!

Just incase there are any British Z fans out there I've got some sample motors on order and my electrical chaps looking at a proprietary digital control. I'm really keen to see what can be achieved in Z using modern electronics and micro engineering.

This is a link to the LLC FB Group. It's the best I can do. I've only just graduated from dinosaur to lizard myself...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1864404633848334/

Can someone provide a link please-I find facebook very muddled.

 

Thanks,

 

CME

I have no idea how to link to a post on FB. If you're a member, and there's absolutely no reason that I would reject anyone who wanted to join, you'll be able to see it as the second post down in the group.

Even though I've been on FB for years I still don't really know how to work it!