Jol Wilkinson

Well done with the saddle tank. Some modellers struggled with it which is why John at LRM had the cast resin version produced and added to the kit.

13 hours ago, stewartingram said:

When I went back to tech college (remember them?) in Cambridge, Clive Sinclair had his office close by. Now, regardless of what many people think of him, he was a very clever guy, and the college did have close connections with him. It was said by my tutor, when Clive was interested in developing an electric car, the biggest problem he had found, was slowing down the rate of accleration.

Of course, this was in the era when the big oil industry and car industry (combined) were totally opposed to switching to electric cars. What did Clive end up with? The C5, powered by a washing machine motor, and really a potential danger on the roads - though I do find them fascinating.

My wife and I were nearly run down on a local seafront pedestrian promenade last year, by a bunch of Hooray Henrys and Henriettas in C5s. It turns out there is a C5 "specialist" locally who also hires them out, presumably to any daft pr*ck.

34 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I discovered this to be a problem with the LRM Midland 6-wheel goods brake van - ex-D&S etched brass kit - which, at least when I got my kit, was lacking the etched end between the cabin and veranda (IIRC). This got sorted and is not a problem with current stock of the kit, I believe.

When LRM took over the D&S LNWR 4 wheel 10T Brake Van, Danny continued to supply the etches for the underframe, for the reason polybear has mentioned. After a time Danny stopped supplying the etched (perhaps because he didn't need the other items on that etch tool?). I had to design a new etch in n/s  for John at LRM, which then had an etched veranda wall and other additional parts for the NLR version added. The original D&S kit had, IIRC a printed outline for the wall, so you could cut it out from plasticard.

I don't know about the MR Break Van, but it is possible that Andy Walker, who designed several MR kits for LRM, added the Brake Van Veranda to one of those other etches.

I think it is Danny's approach to his etched tool artwork that has made it a bit difficult for other suppliers to adopt sections of his much missed  D&S range of kits.

It seems like the almighty $, Liberty's overwhelming priority , wins again. More races, especially in the rich nations who want to do some sports washing, to increase Liberty's income.

The summer break was introduced to give team staff a much needed rest in what was already a busy calendar., but that has been eroded by the lust for more races and income. 

Add to this the unending failure of the FIA to manage the sporting aspect of F1, explains my increasing disillusion and disinterest in the sport. It is just becoming entertainment for those who want crashes, trumped up drama and have only a short term interest. It is rather summed up by the Orange Army.

5 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

The NE cattle van shown by Tony is a D&S GC cattle van. I said previously that it was a fitted van but now I've had a better look (previously it was just before I went to bed after 12am!) I can see it is just a through- piped van - but should be in red oxide livery. I have 3 of these - a fitted version to build, the through-piped van I built around 40 years ago and an unfitted van purchased built, a few years ago from a friend here in Adelaide. All of these are full whitemetal kits there are no brass components other than the wire for the rails and bearings I supplied - I've just checked the unmade fitted version I have.

 

Here on the right is the through-piped version I built 40 years ago. The van on the left is a D&S GN cattle van. The GC van shouldn't have a white interior - at that time I didn't know that the the use of lime for cleaning had been discontinued in the mid 20s. Maybe one day I'll remove the roof and repaint the interior.

 

I bought my first D&S wagon kits from Chris Crawley on Lordship Lane at Tottenham during a visit to the UK back in 1981. I owe a lot of thanks to Danny Pinnock for producing all that he has. Overall I have around 140-150 D&S wagons (with around 30 of these still to be built), many bought new when released by Danny with a few bought on eBay - but not in recent times - I wouldn't pay the silly prices being asked now. I've also purchased quite a few from a friend here in Adelaide as he has down-sized his collection. Last year I bought a batch of 50 built wagons at auction from a deceased estate of one of our BRMA members in Sydney - nearly half I would say were D&S - most need substantial renovation - which is a slow process given the other projects I need to undertake. But that's very acceptable when the average price per wagon was $5.62 or about £3 per wagon. 

 

Andrew

 

 

Andrew,

thanks for clarifying that. The only NER cattle wagon kit  (which is what I thought it was) that I can find is a cast WM version from 51L, which is currently out of stock. Tony described the NE and GN models in the photo as white metal which is what I searched for.

Jol

12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Brian,

 

Glad to report that the Tube wagon has been sold (at £15.00, the cheapest, but a start, and at least that's a tenner for CRUK). 

 

One thing I've noticed is that several of the wagons have MJT or D&S suspension units, meaning an added cost at source, thus making them even better value!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Firstly, yes the loco is a Precursor, built from a Brassmasters kit with a custom etched frames.

Secondly, I was interested in one or two of the wagons especially the GN van, but modelling in P4, wouldn't want to have to butcher it to fit compensation or springing if that was even possible. If it has MJT or D&S etched underframes that was probably not necessary. Modelling LNWR pre-group also means I have to research other companies stock for suitability.

The NER cattle wagon has a "Large" designation but looks like the Wizard/51L Medium van, the Large Cattle wagon kit is from Parkside, hence plastic, and looks quite different. If fitted with etched (preferably compensated) then it would be of interest.

Should you continue with reselling wagons? Yes, if they are inexpensive enough for you to be able to make a contribution to CRUK that is worth your time and effort. By which I mean, doing so doesn't detract from doing something more beneficial for the charity such as sorting out a loco that would create a greater contribution.

Jol

The GWR Horsebox is most probably a D&S kit. It is listed in the D&S 1986/7 and 2005 price lists I have, as a GWR N4 Horsebox.

I have one, together with a D&S GER  Horsebox, both built(?) and painted by Ian Rathbone. They can be seen in the background in this photo.

I don't often look at the D&S price lists, it depresses me.

8 hours ago, thetalkinlens said:

There are a number of 3D print NER coaches listed here:
http://www.rue-d-etropal.com/3D-printing/passenger-stock-lner/3d_printed_ner-coaches.htm

 

They are available to purchase through Shapeways. This is where I become hesitant! I have heard that the quality of printing from Shapeways can be quite poor and I've not seen any of these from the links above out in the wild so to speak, so have nothing to judge on how good they a might be.

I wouldn't ever  recommend them. My one and only experience of a Shapeways product was very poor, a LNWR van with vertical striations across the planking, especially at the ends.  The images on the Shapeways site are all digital images, not what you actually get. The prices are often high for what you get, the NER  D162 Driving trailer costing $92.00 (plus whatever Shapeways charge for P&P, etc.). compared to other 3D printed product suppliers (Mousa Models, Isinglass, etc.)

When I was the Promotions Officer for the LNWRS I was also a Trustee and attended the regular committee meetings where decisions were made about the operation of the Society, which is an Educational Charity.

A look at the Society's website will show the status of the current Officers and Trustees.

SLA resin printing can produce very good finishes, but is slow and messy. The finished product usually requires washing and UV curing. That is the system Bill Bedford (Mousa Models) and Modelu use (as do a lot of amateur 3d printers). High quality SLA 3D prints are sometimes used for master patterns for resin casting, as in the boiler/smokebox/chimney/dome/safety valve casting in the London Road Models LNWR 0-4-0T and 0-4-2T Crane Tank kits

Filament printing uses a heated plastic filament extruded through a nozzle and generally doesn't produce such a smooth finish. I believe that is the system that Isinglass use.

I think 3D printing is in a similar situation as early etched kits were, where the benefits and best application of the technology is still being understood.

14 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Do you happen to remember how many people were involved in running the LNWR at that time Jol, across both committee members and other volunteer roles?

Chas,

I think that there were about 8 Trustees/Committee Members, but another 8 or so "senior" volunteers. Currently there are 12 Trustees although some may not be so heavily involved in the day to day running, plus another five Officers with specific roles. So the overall number remains about the same.

The LNWRS was/is heavily committed to maintaining as much information about the Premier Line as possible, which takes a big investment in time and money. That includes scanning and digitising as much as possible. I don't know if other Societies are as heavily committed to that, so could possible operate with fewer numbers. The LNWRS also has it's own Study Centre, where the archives are kept, scanning is carried out and regular events/meetings are held.

Jol

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

If you are prepared to tolerate the Locomotives of the LNWR article perpetuating the myths and nonsense about the Webb compounds...

Attempts to disprove it don't get much traction (see what I've done there), much the same as  for the Small Engines Policy I suspect.

Other myths such as I K Brunel being Britain's greatest/only  Victorian engineer are also too well established.

6 minutes ago, DenysW said:

Shouldn't that be GNR? They were the ones with the greatest irrational desire to get to Edinburgh as fast as possible and without stopping. And back as well.

Denys,

I am currently re-reading the Railway Race to the North, by O S Nock. In the early days of the competition for the London to Edinburgh traffic, he references the Midlands interest in partaking but they didn't persist.

Jol 

4 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Thanks Andy, hopefully others can help on some other societies; I wonder what the correlation is - if any - between the number of members and the size of the managing team?

When I was a committee member of the LNWR Society  (2008 - 2014) the Society's membership rose from the high 600s to the low 700s. I believe it is still around 700. New members joining is still fairly strong but is balanced by those  leaving this mortal coil and those resigning through age and illness.

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Doesn't need re-writing, in my view. Just cutting out.

As a LNWR enthusiast I think it should be left, to keep the myth alive😆

10 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

It, like most similar societies, is slowly shrinking. Indeed, I recently saw it suggested that there may only be one line society that is growing (L&Y). There has been much debate about why this is when the hobby seems to be at least holding its own. I think part of the reason is that much of that growth comes from post-48 modellers where there is only really DEMU. In turn, that is perhaps because most of the post-48 drawings have been retained by the industry and so there isn't an available archive in the way that many of the pre-48 line societies have created.

 

Personally, I think that a greater reason is that so little line society information that has been digitized (with a few honourable exceptions, Stephen!). If you look at how several of these societies operate it is based around a building that can be visited so that material can be studied in person. That model is one that does not appeal to those who have grown up as a Google generation. It also means that such societies do not rank highly in search results so get caught in a vicious circle.

 

In terms of the HMRS (where I am a recently co-opted Trustee, but commenting here in a personal capacity), we are in the early stages at looking into the logistics of substantially scaling up our rate of digitization with a view to making material more easily accessible. Having a workflow where people can also contribute from home will also hopefully bring forward more active volunteers.

The LNWR Society is healthy and I believe that membership is steadily on the increase.

It has a active group of volunteers scanning and digitising its archive, which is accessible online. The Study Centre at Kenilworth is regularly open and the Society runs and attends a number of events and shows. It has a strong Facebook presence which is regarded as effective in promoting the Society and gaining new members. It also produces both a quarterly Newsletter and the Journal as well as the twice yearly "Modelling the LNWR". 

So it would appear that good accessibility is an important factor.

Hi Stan,

great to hear from you. Sorry about the delay in replying but today has been rather busy with long phonically from various people and then Hilary monopolising the pc on her various charity activities. Tomorrow I have a S4 Area group daytime meeting but will get back to you in a  pm soon.

Jol

33 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Well yes, all fine, and I don't disagree, yet I fear you are in danger here of encouraging others in the non sequitur "nothing like 100% accuracy is possible, therefore, anything goes." I am sure that would not be your position, lest it make a nonsense of your own fine attempts at recreating the pre-Grouping scene.

 

So I would suggest this is a straw man argument in this topic. While fine as an argument, it's not an answer to anything I've said, and I don't think anyone else here has claimed to know exactly what NER Saxony green (as applied at any particular period by any of the three locomotive works concerned) looked like or how to reproduce it on a model. I can do no more than point to the preserved M1as a pretty solid example, unlike the Beamish Class C, which seems to show a variety of off shades.   

 

Further no one is arguing against the difficulties inherent in the exercise. Due to (a) lack of reliable evidence, (b) the effects of changes in practice, aging, weathering and lighting conditions, and (c) the scale appearance of colour, I have always been against attempts to insist on precision. It will always be a 'there or thereabouts' exercise based on a view of what looks right on a model with a fair dollop of subjectivity.  In the case of the NER one can add the lore that the paint shops of the different works had their own ideas of Saxony green. IIRC, Darlington's was supposedly more blue and York's more yellow. I'd have to check. The point is that we can acknowledge all this results in a range of shades.  

 

Yet I think we are able to point to a given colour and take a view as to whether, for us, it lies within a reasonably acceptable range for the prototype colour it is said to represent.

 

I suggest, then, all people need to decide is whether, for them, based upon how the more reliable examples of NER livery actually appear, the Bachmann shade is within an acceptable range for that.

 

Two or three people here have said, yes, it is; they are happy with the bright sunny day look.

 

Fair enough. 

 

I, on the other hand, am not convinced. At best the model presents, consistently in all lighting conditions from bright down to moderate shade, as at the very extreme edge of what I can consider a reasonable range for Saxony green, if not beyond. 

 

So, here's the real problem, to me it looks like a version of how the prototype livery looks when bleached out by bright sun or age, but it looks like that all the time, in any but the dullest lighting conditions and, next to all other NER  models that I have, themselves representing a range in how Saxony green might appear, it is a bright yellow-green outlier.   So yes, one will always be able to find a picture of a prototype and say, "oh look, I've found a match!" but it does not follow that the Bachmann shade is generally representative of how this livery typically appears, any more than it is the case that 100% accuracy is impossible, so anything goes.  

 

My digital camera has, actually, been kind to the Bachmann model, bringing out the greens and blues in dull light, whereas in reality, in shade it mainly looks pale, too pale. In any more positive light it starts to glow like radioactive vomit. 

 

There, I've tried to be kind, but there it is. Other opinions are clearly available.

 

It's a beautiful model. I've tried to love it. But the colour, IMHO, is off by too many degrees to pass. 

 

As such, I am glad that Bachmann has thus far declined the M1 and that it chose to limit its E1 to the 1914 onward builds, so I never need to consider one in green. Bachmann is a premium brand, and its colours can be superb; witness its beautiful GWR green that has the depth of an old master painting and comparing with Hornby's sludge version.

 

So, all credit to TMC and Bachmann, but here, I fear, for me at least, they are off on the shade by a little too much for comfort.

 

I hope to God other manufacturers don't copy it.    

While we will never know exactly what the colour should be for an accurate representation, I think that we could accept that the model designer and manufacturer will have researched this as far as is reasonable. Of course that is not too say that they have got it right, but it comes down to personal opinion unless someone can produce an example of original NER  locomotive paint as applied.

I am well aware that the manufacturers can/do get it wrong, e.g. the Hattons and Hornby rendition of LNWR carriage lake. An example of the actual colour on the LNWR Picnic Saloon under restoration at Quainton. It is a darker colour than the Hattons/Hornby colour, as is the Phoenix Precision colour. That is one reason why I put more faith in their original research years ago, rather than the "opinions" expressed here and in other threads where colour "accuracy" is debated. I believe we are very rarely in a position to be definitive about colours manufactured and applied over 100 years ago 

"Yet I think we are able to point to a given colour and take a view as to whether, for us, it lies within a reasonably acceptable range for the prototype colour it is said to represent".

What do you take as a start point to inform your view as to what is an acceptable range? That is surely fundamental to whether you believe a colour is correct. Actually I agree that the colour depicted in most of the images of the model isn't very "appealing" (too yellow?) but I can't say whether it is accurate or not. Others however, seem to like it. So who is right? 

This NER G1 (from a London Road Models kit) was painted in cellulose paint, which was matched to PPP525 NER Loco Green. The previous owner(s) of Precision Paints had gone to some lengths to research railway colours and that is probably the best guess we have available to us today.

Here is a close up photo of the tender front, taken during the build. The colour appears darker. Same camera, different lighting?

Several thing I learned, from a career in the motor industry with three  different car manufacturers is that;

Colour memory is very short term (normally reckoned to be about 20 minutes). The scientists at Standox used to prove this by asking you to look at a paint colour, and after a suitable break, select it from a number of samples. Rarely did anyone pick the correct colour match. 

Paint samples were kept in light proof safes and regularly used to check production paints to ensure accuracy and check for variation.

Women are far better at colour matching than men, so you all have a built in disadvantage on this subject.

The "same" colour can look different under different light, especially when mixed from different formulations, applied with different techniques and over different substrates, undercoats, etc. See my previous reference to Metamerism.

So much of what is written on this and other threads about correct/accurate colour rendition is, frankly, unreliable (a more forceful word springs to mind). Even where original paint mixing formulae's exist (such as those for LNWR locos and carriages), the actual make up and colours of the ingredients isn't always known. For example, exactly what is Drop Black or Lead White?

The different rendition on individual screens also clouds the picture. Do different camera sensors produce different colour renditions? I queried that with a friend who was taking a Degree course in photography before Covid interrupted his studies. He is firmly of the view that it would have little or no impact, although software and subsequent image processing could. Colour photos taken years ago on film can be markedly different, faded, etc., so what we may think is an accurate record cannot be guaranteed to be so.

My view is that accurate colour rendition of a paint produced over 100 years ago is impossible and no amount of wishful thinking will change that.

So while this doesn't help define what is the correct NER colour for this model is/should be, neither does any of what else has been written.

11 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

It's just the wording and prices that I find interesting, and not very user friendly (complicated).

 

I'm afraid I tend to buy their products elsewhere if I can rather than through the website.

 

 

 

Jason

Perhaps not the most customer friendly approach. As the retailer/supplier I though they would be responsible for delivery of an order, so does the "At your own risk" claim legally apply. However, having known the owners of PPP for some years I am sure that they will have researched it.

Getting their paints elsewhere isn't always easy, especially with such a large range. Roxey Mouldings were selling of some of the range they had stocked at Railex in May, as they were too slow moving to carry in stock.

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

It depends on what country he is in as Humbrol is normally about £2 to £2.50 at your local model shop. One of those small tinlets normally last for ages.

 

Unfortunately most sellers won't export or charge a lot for a courier. Phoenix's delivery policy is interesting

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/delivery

 

 

Jason

PPP and other responsible suppliers follow the "rules" for shipping what are deemed by the authorities to be hazardous substances (how dangerous is a small tin of enamel?).

On the other hand there are no shortage of eBay sellers who will ship Humbrol enamels, MEK or Butanone by Royal Mail. Makes you wonder what you can get away with.

If you want to use wood, then Marine grade plywood is the best way to go. However it is expensive and still needs a properly designed support structure i.e. girder style side rails and plain cross bearers. That will make it rigid. Then paint it all with a good wood primer and top coat.

21 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

AFAIK, the early open D20 on display was from new castings creating by modifying the patterns for the closed version. I don't yet know when it will be supplied as a separate kit. 

 

Also in the pipeline from LRM are a LNWR Ballast wagon and a LNWR Loco Coal wagon.

Nope, I got that wrong, the early open LNWR D20 Small Cattle Wagon was modified from the castings for the roofed version. I have however suggested to John Redrup that the open version would be a popular option.

The LNWR Loco Coal wagon kit will be for the dumb buffered one, as Airnimal's excellent model. 

I built two M&L kits, the LNWR Coal Engine and 5' 6" Radial Tank. Neither came with wheels.

The Coal Engine needed the splashers sides thinning drastically to take P4 wheels. The tender needed widening for P4 (and probably EM too), so was replaced with a George Norton/LRM etched version.

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The one I'm building was bought at ExpoEM. There was also an open version, which I gather was adapted from the kit - I assume just by filing the ends flat; there were a couple of strips of brass soldered on to represent the bracing straps that run across the wagon from the tops of the door-pillars.

AFAIK, the early open D20 on display was from new castings creating by modifying the patterns for the closed version. I don't yet know when it will be supplied as a separate kit. 

Also in the pipeline from LRM are a LNWR Ballast wagon and a LNWR Loco Coal wagon.