Brassey

And not forgetting the glorious Coal Engine at the front of the train. Look at the sheen on the boiler on a humble goods engine; but not so on the tender:

@VIDEOMIKE123 I have the instructions for both the Perseverance Metro chassis and full kit. If you PM me an email address I can send you a copy. Peter

Sorry I have no idea. I took notice of the Metro because I have one in my kit mountain and it is on my build list. I have a number of Perseverance kits and none I recall had anything but written instructions. They have been described as scratch aids so not ideal as a starter kit.

IIRC Branchlines now market the ex-Rod Neep/Perseverance Metro so May well have updated the instructions

OK. It was the Wolverhampton reference that threw me. I thought SC might be more north. In 1912 the 15 coach 10:35 Penzance/Wolverhampton also included portions for Paddington and Cardiff, the Wolverhampton section included a dining car. I don't have any equivalent data for the 30's though someone else may.

Looks great yet begs the question, what route did that train take from Plymouth and whereabouts is Stoke Courtenay on that route?

Coal was left stored in the wagon(s) until needed. 10 tons of coal would have lasted a small village quite some time. I read somewhere that the LNWR coal depots in South London serving populations of around 100,000 had about 3 coal trains a week. You easily see that amount shunted in and out on BLTs at exhibitions in less than a day.

Some earlier ones had 6' 4" and then 8' 6" before 10" became standard. If and when these changed I do not recall.

Good question. Yes Mikkel "The Plan" is to do all 90 trains but whether that ever gets completed is another question. Bearing in mind that each train went up and down it'd be 45 trains worth so not an enormous figure! It works out from analysis of the database that I would require about 70 passenger vehicles allowing for a lot of re-marshalling of common coaches. The choice of passenger stock is mainly based upon a pragmatic view of what is available from the trade in kit form. By far the the most frequently featured vehicle on the North West route was the GWR 'break composite' but there is a dearth of these in the trade both corridor and non-corridor. There are a few toplights but hardly any earlier clerestory stock. I have sourced a few clerestory from Worsley works. Mallard/Blacksmith had one in the catalogue though I've never seen an example except in 7mm. So the break composites will be pressed into service a lot and rotated. I have also had a couple of exclusive/rare vehicles etched by Worsley such as the an LNWR 45' break composite and the LNWR Hereford Post Office coach. Local passenger stock was largely 6 wheel of which there are quite a few kits for LNWR from David Geen/LRM. Some of the LNWR were listed as "circuit trains" and were chained together as sets so they shuttled back and forth all day. For the GWR 6 wheelers I have a pile of IKB coaches awaiting construction . Break vans featured on both ends of most trains and will be interchangeable and I have sourced both 6 wheel and bogie stock for both companies for these. I also have in the kit mountain fish vehicles including from the GCR, post and parcels stock, horse boxes and a Caledonian 12wheel break composite that ran between Glasgow and Weston-super-mare! Quite a lot of the goods movements were express freight that ran over night which I have assumed used fitted vehicles; probably mainly vans and I think I have that covered with stock. So quite a build list. I have stated elsewhere that I gave myself an easy start by beginning with the first passenger train of the day which was a branch train for which I am using a rake of 4 wheelers and a GWR 517 of which there will be a choice of 3 when all are finished. Overall I think I can run the timetable with around 30 locos. A challenge when all are kit built in P4. This photo at Leominster shows I think one of the LNWR chained up sets given the closeness of the vehicles. The GWR train is interesting as it is too long for the platform and is likely to have been left there whilst awaiting it's next job. It looks like a V13 van, 4 compartment arc roof first class, 3 arc roof 5 compartment compo, U28 clerestory compo then possibly another compo with a centre luggage compartment that is hidden by the bridge post.

In planning the layout I have spent considerable time working on the operational side. This has required analysing the public timetables, working/service timetables and carriage working diagrams/programmes, rule books etc. This being a joint line, it required accessing original info from both the LNWR and GWR and also the Joint Line Committee which published it's own schedules too. Luckily quite a lot of the information I required was at the L&NWR Society Study Centre. The data was input into a database programme (Access) and the movements and their balancing movements analysed which produced a timetable of trains through Berrington and Eye and the make-up of the trains for the Summer of 1912. This gave 90 trains through the station the majority of which were goods as per summary: 43 Goods 16 Express Passenger 22 Joint Local Passenger 5 Coal 1 L&NW Mail 1 Cattle 1 Mineral 1 Meat Through the various carriage diagrams I have managed to glean the formation of all the passenger trains. This is a fascinating subject in itself though few carriage working documents have survived. This is a page from the May 1915 Diagram of Carriage Working for the Joint Line: Train No. 87 for example, (which was 117 Down in the Working Timetable), started the morning in Chester arriving at Shrewsbury at 9:38 leaving just under an hour later for Hereford at 10:30. It arrived at Hereford (50 miles) over 1 1/2 hours later at 11:58 and at 1 pm worked a train to Cheltenham, back on GWR metals. It made its way back from Cheltenham at 15:20 and 15 minutes later formed the 15:35 to Shrewsbury and formed the 17:52 from Shrewsbury to Chester where I assume it ended its day's work and spent overnight to do the whole Chester - Cheltenham circuit the next day again. The down train stopped at Berrington and Eye at 11:33 and the up at 16:06. The train was made up of 8 wheel composite and third and a 6 wheel compo with a van at each end possibly also 6 wheelers. Other GW trains are listed as 8 wheel stock running between Chester - Cardiff or Newport. The previous working for the LNWR stock was from Crewe. By following the timetables you can see that the trains weren't necessarily through trains but the carriages were used to form the next scheduled service on their working. I do not think they went off to a marshalling depot to be arranged but merely stayed at the station until required (in carriage sidings possibly). The upshot of this is that the database has given me a list of the amount and type of stock I need to build to make a reasonable attempt at reflecting the passenger timetable. This also has to be balanced with a pragmatic view as to what pre-grouping carriage stock is available from the trade. Nevertheless I have quite a large schedule of works and limited time. Work on the layout continues to take a back seat therefore.

The instructions in the kits I bought from him just before he retired still featured the Portescaps and the Brassmasters versions still come with the conversion frames on the etch.

I asked Brassmasters whether they had test built the various chassis in the MF range with their recommended gearboxes. The impression I got was not. And that the proposals were just the view of someone (and I didn't get the impression that person was involved in Brassmasters). The most bizarre recommendation is the High Level Load Hauler+ for a Duke. Even Chris from High Level queried this choice when I bought one from him as it is a particularly tall gearbox. I have no idea how this is supposed to fit. In addition the online instructions state that if using another gearbox "that will not clear the compensation beam pivot", the work around is to "Cut away the centre section of the pivot rod"! If doing this, I cannot see what would prevent the beams from falling off the remaining rod and into the chassis! But maybe I'm just being thick and I've missed something.

As the OP was about pre-grouping carriages, my marshalling contribution was based purely on pre-grouping observations; I have no knowledge of other periods which may have differed. In the interests of some who may want further illumination, herewith marshalling from the GWR for the Summer of 1912. As can be seen, the means by which these carriages returned was already established in the internal marshalling documentation of the railway. These carriages did not go off to carriage depots but were held at the destinations to be returned (balanced in LNWR terminology) from whence they came to form the same service the next day: As can be seen, a number of LNWR stock ended as far away as Penzance, Plymouth, Exeter and Bristol returning to Crewe along with some GWR vehicles that finished in Liverpool and Manchester. The WCJS 6 wheel Fish Van (of which there was probably only one diagram) must have returned from Bristol to Aberdeen empty via an undisclosed route!

I have some GWR documents for 1912 (my period of interest) which I believe are at Kew PS: my documents (also 1912), from the L&NWR Society Study Centre, are for the LNWR/GWR joint lines so cover the GWR too to a certain extent

Carriage marshalling documents do survive and one can identify the carriage diagram sometimes by deduction for example if it states brake third with 3 compartments - there may not be many diagrams that fit that description. Most of the descriptions were looser than that though. But in the case of the LNWR for example, if it states 6 wheel break van, then the LNWR only made one diagram of that type in great quantity and was a vehicle in wide use in pre-grouping days. Regarding "strengtheners", in the marshalling documents (sometimes confusingly called diagrams) movements were balanced which showed how the vehicles were allocated in both directions. Sometimes the allocation was written on the solbar as per some photos in Russell so carriages usually worked the same train every day. So I don't get the impression there was much stock unallocated lying around in sidings. However, sometimes there may be a comments such as: on market days Shrewsbury to provide an additional 2nd class carriage, so there must have been some.

The bearings should be a loose enough fit in the guides so that they fall out under their own weight but definitely not sloppy. Were these acquire used? Both the MJT and LRM types are unsprung so will need either some beam compensation or CSB setup.

But Tony Wright is building for 00. For P4 you need to employ different techniques to rigid. I have a feeling this chassis is EM?

As we are dealing with some small tolerances between a free and stiff chassis, I am not sure how you can establish this without using the jig to assemble the chassis. I have never encountered a problem when soldering with 145 degree on my Hobby Holidays jig. One solution to the heatsink issue is to solder the side away from the main body of the jig first, take the chassis off, flip it and solder the other side. Another thought is that with an all horn block construction, the wheelbase is a moveable feast as things move up and down, so you will need to open out the rods slightly. However, looking at the pics, you appear to be using the Romford crank pins which IIRC are about 1mm whereas the Hobby Holidays jig is designed to use 1.5mm rod holes so I am wonder whether the jig was setup using these rods?

I am currently building the same chassis but I can't see how using the RR+ doesn't end up with the back end of the gearbox in the cab. I am going to resort to using the drive stretcher as per the Dean Goods configuration.

I live in Stretton. There are a number of Naval graves in the churchyard including a number of young ladies from the base that were killed on the road one night either to or from a dance in Warrington. Very sad.

The RCTS "The Birkenhead Railway" states: GW '3571' class 3577 worked from October 1895 to March 1949. In February 1912, 3577 was at Birkenhead. 3580 was also at Birkenhead that year...from 1907 the 3571's were augmented by Metro classes displaced from the London suburban lines electrification. At the turn of the century, tank engines generally took over from tender engines; 517's as well as the Metros. Herewith at Heswall with a 517 in charge of LNWR stock: "The larger passenger engines shedded at Chester rarely, if ever, saw Birkenhead and the Paddington expresses could be headed by almost anything from either company over this section." "The vacuum braked goods which the GW pioneered around the turn of the century were hauled by passenger engines."

This is a pic of a GWR 2-4-0 3240 at Manchester Exchange. It has probably come from Birkenhead and is being turned for the return Journey. It looks to me to be in the pre-1906 Indian Red livery. I do not know the date of the photo but might be within your time frame. In 1912 3240 was indeed shedded at Birkenhead by which time at had acquired a B4 Belpaire boiler instead of the round top pictured. The 3232 class is in the Martin Finney range now sold by Brassmasters and would avoid scratch building. Tender engines coming from Birkenhead heading for Manchester were facing the right direction whereas the GWR expresses heading West via Shrewsbury required a reversal at Chester so I think it is likely that a Chester engine took them forward from there and maybe a more lowly engine brought them out of Birkenhead.

The LNWR tender passenger locos were as follows: Birkenhead - 18 1912 ‘Small Jumbo’ 35 Talisman, 486 Skiddaw London Road Models provide a kit for these in 4mm All the other LNWR locos at Birkenhead were either tank engines, probably engaged on the Manchester services, or goods engines.

I have some listings for 1912 that are arranged by engine number not by allocation. If you are genuinely interested in building a certain class then I can see whether any of that class were allocated to Birkenhead or indeed Chester. Unlike the LNWR, the GWR did not issue its numbers so randomly so most are arranged by class but there are about 3,000 numbers to go through. As this was a joint line, the LNWR had a presence but you may have that information already.

Also minus its lookout duckets