Dungrange

Interesting that when given a binary choice between cash and card, payment by card was preferred by 3/4 of survey respondents (a quite decisive preference), but when given a 'no preference option' ,the picture is quite different.  Presumably those who have expressed 'no preference' in this survey selected 'card' in the other survey but that preference for card is relatively weak.  

22 hours ago, Crantock said:

But what’s the point for the organisers?

I suppose for some it could help with cashflow to get some ticket income in advance of paying the final instalment on the hall?  

In our case, we won't get the money until after the event, so it's just providing another payment option for our customers. The fact that we've sold some advance tickets means that at least some people know about our show, which is reassuring.  While we haven't sold all that many advance tickets so far, it appears from the result of this poll that for every advance ticket we have sold to date, we can probably expect to sell two more advanced tickets before the event, with a bit of a rush in the last few days and as many pay on the day customers as our ultimate advanced sales figures.

Since it was stated earlier, that I'd missed a couple of options, I've started a new poll with four choices.

4 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Which is what the topic was originally about. I don’t think there was any suggestion from @Dungrange that their club show might go card-only, just that card would be available as an option.

Correct - we'll be accepting both cash and cards for our first exhibition in many years.  I was just curious as to what the uptake for card payments is likely to be and this poll has been showing a fairly consistent 3/4 card 1/4 cash split over the last week.  It will be interesting to compare our outturn split between card and cash against this poll.

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I think being very remote from the nearest cash machine is quite a good reason for a show to take cards.

Our nearest cashpoint isn't miles away, but the closest one I know about is about 0.6 miles away from our venue (a 12-13 minute walk).  If someone has to walk that far to get a cash point, I think there is a reasonable likelihood that they won't come back.

3 hours ago, Reorte said:

Like everything there has to be a balance, and it's often the case of which is the lesser evil.

I'd say that doing nothing is definitely the lesser evil.  Most places will offer a choice of payment mechanisms without any legislation forcing them to do so.  Placing a statutory obligation on all events to take multiple payment mechanisms will just lead to fewer events and the creation of a few pointless jobs for people to check that all organisations are meeting these statutory requirements.

The last poll I set up had just two option (cash / card), this one has four to include the 'missing options' identified in the discussion at:

13 hours ago, Andymsa said:

It’s a fine line between banter and offence

13 hours ago, RichardT said:

Hmm. In my not-so-restricted experience use of the word “banter” almost invariably means “I know full well I’m being offensive but I’m going to claim that it was all a joke if challenged.”  See also “I’m just breaking your balls”.

I agree with both of you, but lean much more strongly to the later.

13 hours ago, Andymsa said:

what is ok for one person can be an issue for another.

I hole-heartedly agree, but the question is where does the 'slippery slope' of accepting all forms of intolerance begin?  Racist attitudes isn't a problem that is restricted to white males, but since white Caucasians make up the largest demographic slice in British society, it's obviously more obvious among this group and it seems like they have a greater sense of entitlement to express their views out loud.   

If I were to express a racist (or any discriminatory) viewpoint to two individuals and one laughs and one takes offence, who decides whether my viewpoint is acceptable?  I could quite easily claim that since someone laughed, they share my opinion and therefore, since it's the majority opinion (among the three people involved) it's okay.  The person who took offence is in the minority, so they need to learn to be less sensitive, because obviously my opinion is acceptable to the majority.  Do you see the parallels with the original post?  Three people, two with racist views that they consider to be acceptable simply because they share the same opinion.

The only way to really address all forms of intolerance is to take the opposite viewpoint that if one person is offended, then it's unacceptable behaviour.

There are groups of people at whom the term 'institutionally racist' is sometimes levied.  Lets imagine a bigger group of people.  The number laughing at my racist (or discriminatory) viewpoint may be higher and lets say that no-one seems to be offended.  Does that mean it's okay?

Let's say it's one of my white male colleagues who's being racist / sexist.  I'm not the butt of the joke, so don't personally take offence.  My colleague, whether they be female or a person of colour might not seem offended, but deep down they may be.  At what point to you decide that such behaviour should be challenged?  Failure to speak up when you should is what can lead to toxic workplace cultures.

16 hours ago, Andymsa said:

when you get headlines like train drivers are middle aged white males in the media isn’t this sexism or racism? Or discrimination in its self?

Not if it's simply a statement of fact.  Of course journalists, like the rest of society, will have bigots, racists and sexists among their ranks.  If a particular publication's articles contain unacceptable prejudices, don't spend money on them.

I think the decision not to 'name and shame' on a public forum is the correct one, however, I do agree with those who have suggested contacting the event organisers to make them aware. 

One of the things I've picked up from various internal company training sessions at work is the importance of notifying our Human Resource department if we see behaviour in the workplace (including work social nights) that is not in line with the company ethos.  My employer's attitude is that all forms of sexist / racist etc 'banter' is unacceptable, but of course its been stressed in such training sessions that the company can't take any action unless it knows about a problem.  Sometimes the person that is the butt of such comments may not complain whilst in employment, leave and then claim unfair dismissal due to sexual harassment or whatever and the only way to truly address such scenarios is to speak up: not just the victim, but preferably colleagues / line managers etc.  Thankfully I have to say, that I haven't witnessed any problematic behaviour at work.  

4 hours ago, Chris M said:

Could I suggest Eventbrite (or similar) for advance ticket sales? 
I would rather buy in advance and not have to bother with card or cash at the door.

Yes - we've done that, although went with Ticketsource (https://www.ticketsource.co.uk/elmrc)

4 hours ago, eastwestdivide said:

Bit late now, but the other missing option is “Either - I don’t mind”

3 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Your poll does not include the "don't mind either way" option.

I had thought that preference meant ranking one option above the other, but perhaps I should have included that as an option.

4 hours ago, Gilbert said:

Fair point..so we have 4 options...

Maybe I should rerun with an amended question.  Is there just four options:

Book on-line in Advance

Pay at the door by card

Pay at the door with cash

Pay at the door with cash or card

3 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I would suggest that any event with takings of over about £100 should be card only.

But that denies those who want to pay in cash from doing so.  Do we really want a cashless society?

3 hours ago, Suddaby said:

Also will traders be able to pay cash for their stand rent, if they have been accepting card payments all day?

For that one, I'll be sending out invoices in advance with bank account details so that they can pay by bank transfer.

3 hours ago, Suddaby said:

have considered how you are going to pay your exhibitors their expenses. Quite often they have to pay for the van when they return and may not want to put petrol etc on their credit card.

Indeed, which is partly why I asked the question.  If traders pay us by bank transfer and everyone who comes through the door wants to pay by card, our problem might be not enough cash to pay exhibitor expenses rather than cash security issues.  Thankfully, three of the layouts that are attending are on a quid pro quo basis.  We've attended a few shows and been sent a cheque after the event, but I understand that not everyone can afford to wait, so paying out on the day from cash taken in at the door would be the ideal scenario.

2 hours ago, MarkSG said:

and the ticketing platform is one I trust (eg, SeeTickets or EventBrite). I won't book in advance online via a ticketing platform that I don't trust,

Interesting point.  We went with Ticketsource (https://www.ticketsource.co.uk/elmrc).  Would they be in your don't trust category?

2 hours ago, MarkSG said:

As others have said, it depends on several variables:

For smaller shows, I typically don't bother. 

I had expected (hoped) that more people would say that they'd only pay on the day.  However, I suppose the distribution may be skewed by the responses of those who book for the larger shows, but don't book for the smaller shows, as I've worded the question such that it favours a response to how far in advance, in which case such individuals are likely to give their response in relation to the larger shows.

4 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

I'd love to see more cultural diversity in the hobby but I understand why that may take a long time to happen (irrespective of unpleasant beliefs). Ally Pally is usually the most diverse show of the year but it's in no way representative.

Yes, it's something that's always puzzled me.  If I look around our clubroom on a club night, it's a very stereotypical group.  100% male, a good spread of ages (although probably slightly disproportionate towards the older end of the spectrum), but also exclusively white Caucasian.  Over the years, we've had the occasional female join (usually because their son is into model railways and so they come along together for some mother son bonding), but I don't think anyone of colour has ever enquired about membership during the 20+ years I've been a club member, let alone actually join us.  Obviously standing behind a layout at an exhibition, you get to observe the demographics of attendees and again, it's not wholly representative of the population at large.  The fact that the largest group of attendees are white Caucasian males of an older demographic is not a surprise, but I have noticed most other ethnicities are significantly under-represented among show attendees, in many cases to the point of complete absence.  I've often wondered why?

46 minutes ago, ianmianmianm said:

I was a few feet away and there was no one else at that layout, and I heard layout operator number one say "Honestly, I thought we were safe from them in this hobby". Operator two said "Hah, you turn on the bloody TV and they're all over reading the news".  

I think you've answered that query.  Sadly, although I believe that most people don't share that attitude I can see why it only takes a few such individuals to have an impact on your enjoyment of the hobby. 

9 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

Different question - not a choice of the 3 payment options

Fair enough, although the other poll I set up seems to suggest that two thirds of attendees would pay in advance, with just one third of attendees paying at the door.

Of those paying at the door, it would appear that three quarters would like to pay by card, with only a quarter preferring to pay in cash.

Combining these would seem to suggest 2/3 would like to buy in advance, 1/4 would like to pay by card on the day and 1/12 would like to pay by cash at the door. 

27 minutes ago, 88D said:

I take cash for second hand stalls, club stalls, smaller suppliers, etc. so, I tend to pay card so that I can have those shekels burning a hole in my pocket.

I've been told that apparently traders like when clubs accept cards at the door for that very reason.

13 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

Once such payments pass a tipping point there's basically an expectation that everywhere will take them and people move on if it is cash only.

I'm not sure whether we've reached that tipping point, but it certainly seems from the relatively small sample that have responded to this poll that most people want to pay by card where possible.

41 minutes ago, kipford said:

The cash/card split is currently about 50/50, but I expect it to swing further towards cards.

Interesting that you've noted a greater balance between cash and card than this poll suggests.  I wonder how much of that is due to a lack of awareness that you accept cards.  If an attendee paid in cash four years ago when you didn't accept cards, how long it takes them to realise that they can pay by card and switch.

46 minutes ago, kipford said:

One unexpected advantage was making it easy to go down the queue before doors open selling tickets in advance which significantly reduced the time for the initial rush to enter the show.

I'm hoping that we have a big queue at opening (in which case selling tickets in advance will be good - it was the reason we went for two card readers), but worrying that no-one turn up.  I don't really think that will be the case, but it's difficult to tell.  I'm just grateful to the traders who have placed their trust in us getting them some customers.

5 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

This really needs the third option of paying in advance to be comprehensive?

Chris

There is a separate poll for paying in advance.

2 minutes ago, newbryford said:

ISTR it's to limit money-laundering.

That may well be the reason.

Our exhibition manager has got back to me to confirm that we don't have a limit on the number of transactions that we can process with Lopay, but we do have a limit on the amount of money that we can withdraw from the account in a single day, so if we have a very good show, it might take us several days to be able to access the income from ticket sales.  However, that shouldn't be a problem.

2 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I'll happily pay by whichever method incurs the least cost to the club. I wouldn't dream of using a credit card, for example, which probably costs the club money, but I have no idea whether cash or debit card is the better option, and don't mind being advised that one method or other is better for the club.

We've incurred an up front cost on the purchase of two card readers.  On top of that there will be a charge for processing each card transaction, which I understand is around 1% of the ticket cost, so in our case that's about 8p per adult ticket.  I don't think it matters whether it's a credit or debit card that's used, although I know that the charges for accepting Amex cards is higher.  Therefore, on pure cost grounds, cash is best for the club, but it's not a huge difference.  Furthermore, I don't fancy leaving the venue with a few thousand pounds in cash in my pocket and our insurance policy won't cover an eventuality where I'm mugged on the way to the bank with that much money.  Therefore, although we're aware that accepting cards means we'll have to pay some money to a card processing company, it reduces the need for us to handle too much cash.  That's also why we've offered an advanced purchase option.  Again, we'll get slightly less money than cash at the door, but it reduces the headache of handling too much cash.  Therefore, go with what is convenient for you.

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

As someone who has manned the ticket desk at shows where both forms of payment have been in operation, card payment is much easier. 

Okay, looks like we really need to make sure that all of the cash desk volunteers know how to use the card readers.  I'd expected a preference for card, but hadn't expected such a strong preference for card payments.

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

1. Cash payment, make sure you don't run of change 10 minutes after the nearest bank has closed.

Yes, that's a problem, because banks aren't open at the weekend and the nearest bank is a good 10 minutes away from the venue.  If everyone wants to pay by card, the amount of change we will need is reduced (since it's related to the number that want to pay in cash), but obviously we need to be prepared for all eventualities.

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

2. Card payment, the limit set by the card reader provider is not lower than your expected takings. It will automatically stop working once you reach that limit and the punters will have to pay cash. This will occur 10 minutes after the nearest bank has closed and you are low on change.

I wasn't aware that card readers had a limit - I'd just assumed that they could process unlimited transactions.  I'll need to check up on how much our card readers can handle.

As part of the committee organising a new Model Railway Exhibition (ie we have no previous year's data available), I'm wondering what proportion of show attendees are likely to want to pay by card.  Pre-COVID it seems like most local shows were cash only, but a growing proportion of shows are taking card payments at the door.

https://elmrc.org.uk/elmrc-exhibition/

https://www.ticketsource.co.uk/elmrc

1 hour ago, Hibelroad said:

Perhaps we are lucky that shows are not fully booked out as soon as tickets are released as seems to happen with so many entertainments these days. 

Yes, Taylor Swift is playing in Edinburgh the week after our show and sold 200,000 tickets in less than an hour, nearly 11 months in advance.  ☹️  If just 1% of that number were to attend our exhibition, our treasurer is likely have an ear to ear grin. 😁  I'm targeting half of that number.

It's obviously not wise to draw too many conclusions from small sample sizes, but the results so far are reassuring and align with my expectations.  I don't disagree with anything that has been said and I don't think I've ever booked in advance for a Model Railway Exhibition.  That said, I find in this post-COVID world that I'm more used to the idea of having to book in advance for some things that I wouldn't have in the past, but rarely far in advance unless I know numbers are restricted.

Show time is just over three weeks away and if the only people who attend are those who have bought advance tickets, it will be a disaster, but from this small sample, it looks as though perhaps only 1 in 12 people who are aware of and intend to come to our show are likely to have bought a ticket.  That's more reassuring, albeit it still points to needing to raise further awareness to meet our break even point. 

On 08/05/2024 at 19:15, OliverSR said:

is it a case of finding the closest RTR loco and go with that sound project.

That's what I'd think.

50 minutes ago, OliverSR said:

I believe to reprogram loksound you need specialist kit which I don’t have or wish to purchase as I doubt I’d get tonnes of use out of it.

Yes, I believe that you'd need to purchase a Lokprogrammer to add the various sound recordings into the various sound slots.

52 minutes ago, OliverSR said:

Am I right that a company who supplies loksound chips and projects would possibly be able to sort as I will drop some emails if so.

I would imagine so, but unless you have a video or other recording of the sound of one running, what would they be sorting?  You'd have to tell them what sounds you want them to use for your project and obviously since you're looking for a bespoke project, all the time spent on it will be charged to you rather than spread over the few hundred Peckett projects they might sell.  If you don't know what it sounds like, the chances are they won't either.

As part of the committee organising a new Model Railway Exhibition (ie we have no previous year's data available, so there is lots of uncertainty). I'm wondering how much demand there is from exhibition attendees to purchase tickets in advance.  It's an option we have made available.

https://elmrc.org.uk/elmrc-exhibition/

https://www.ticketsource.co.uk/elmrc

5 minutes ago, Halton Boy said:

Rapido are producing a 00 gauge fireless engine.

Do you think that there will be a O gauge fireless engine one day?

Never say never, but I guess it depends on how well the 00 model sells.  Rapido did suggest that they might upscale their J70 model to O Gauge, but there wasn't enough expression of interest, so it's probably only likely if more people would a fireless engine than a steam tram.

59 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I suspect  @No. 800 Maedbh wishes to use the bottom brown line for shunting while using the top brown line for a departing train, so an additional section will be needed for the bottom brown line, from the points on the left up to the orange double slip.

If that were the case, I think there would need to be a trap point / headshunt to ensure that the shunting train couldn't run onto the departing line (unless the limit of shunt is greater than a certain distance from the point) - I think that distance is either 100m or 440 yards between the limit of shunt and the clearance / fouling point depending on period.

1 hour ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

If  @No. 800 Maedbh wishes to use the top brown line for shunting while a departing train uses the bottom brown line, then the top brown line will also need a separate section, from the points on the left up to the green double slip.

As above, I think such a movement would only be permitted by the signalling if there were enough length to incorporate the overlap distance between the limit of shunt at the clearance / fouling point.

9 hours ago, Chimer said:

And personally I would use IRJs on both rails at every section break and wire it using DPDT switches, but lots of people would go for common return and SPDTs.

I'd do the same.

Despite nothing happening over the last five years, I'm just giving this topic a 'bump' as we are still looking for new premises and the likelihood of us having to relocate in 2025 has just increased as our landlord has submitted a planning application for the site.

Until we know more, it's business as usual - we're still open to new membership enquiries and we're still holding our first model railway exhibition in many years at George Watson's College on 1/2 June 2024.

https://elmrc.org.uk/elmrc-exhibition/

Cab control is no different for a terminus layout than it is for any other part of a layout.  You divide the track into sections such that all points are fed from the toe end.  The track feed(s) for each section are then connected to the common terminals on a double throw or multi-position switch.  The other terminals are then connected to your two (or more) controllers, such that when the switch is in the left position, the left controller is attached and when in the right position, the right controller is attached.

If you are using common return wiring, then the switches can be single pole, but if you're not using common return, then they will need to be double pole (so that you can switch both feed and return to each section).

https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical_Page_1.html is a good beginners guide to sectioning, discussing common return and types of switches.

On 15/04/2024 at 22:51, Holby Railway said:

why was it his way or no way?

Probably because that was the only way he knew how to do it.