Dungrange

1 hour ago, MikuMatt81 said:

If you really feel live frogs are the only way to go, very sadly id have to can the project before it gets started 😢

I'd certainly see it that way, as I don't see how you're going to hand make the nose of the common crossing.  With handmade track, the normal process is to file both rails so that you end up with an all metal 'frog'.  For an Insulfrog style design you either need a way to create a plastic frog (eg injection moulding) or you end up with a very small all metal frog, isolated from the diverging tracks, which would be difficult to support, but might be doable.  The high diverging angle of Set Track would make it easier to get a short frog than with more scale track.

2 hours ago, RichardT said:

The Peco point templates (intended for track planning purposes) are downloadable from their website - find the point you need and the template should also be there.  

Unfortunately, that only seems to be the case for the Streamline range.  There doesn't appear to be any downloadable templates for the Set Track range.

2 hours ago, ianwales said:

 

I've looked at Google, AA and RAC planners and this seems to be the same with all  3, If I want to go from A to B via CDE then that is the way it will route, what I am looking for is something that will say you want to arrive at B by a certain time and the optimum route is ADCE to B and you need to leave A at this time to arrive at B by the specified time. I know its can't take account of traffic but all I want is something to plan my route and give me an idea of how long the best route will take.

 

Ian

I guess the obvious question is what is your budget?  There are lots of software packages out there to derive optimum delivery schedules and routes, which presumably all the large logistics and delivery companies use.  The issue is that most of them cost money - they're more than just an app for your phone.  A quick google search threw up https://www.upperinc.com/blog/best-delivery-route-planner-app/#:~:text=Some prominent delivery route planner,%2C RouteXL%2C and Speedy Route. which seems to give some of the pros and cons of each package, albeit the cost information is given in dollars.

There still is.  If there are multiple intermediate points, then it won't give you the optimum order for these - it just assumes that you want to visit them in the order that you add them.

56 minutes ago, Scottish Modeller said:

Please note the reference to The N Gauge Society isn't quite right!

 

It is the NGS Forth & Clyde Area Group that are attending and providing a range of demonstrations of N Gauge modelling.

Phil, Okay - I'll update the post and get the webmaster to update the website as well.

9 hours ago, Alex TM said:

And we can't have people attending the 'wrong' school in Edinburgh ..... !

Having never attended any school in Edinburgh, I'm not sure which ones are 'right' and 'wrong'.  Hopefully not too many consider GWC to be the 'wrong' school.

Yes, I understand that there were model railway exhibitions at George Herriot's many years ago but I don't think George Watson's College has been used before.  I hope our prospective customers don't go to the wrong venue!!!😭

1 hour ago, nightstar.train said:

I have a theory as to why they do this, but I'd need a full carriage working diagram to confirm. It goes FTW to FTW to change platforms, as others have said. But the reason it does it twice is to swap the front and rear units. Although it's shown as one train on RTT it is actually two, front unit goes out and back to P2, then the rear unit does the same and they swap position. This done to allow units to rotate through the works when they reach Glasgow

That's what I was thinking, although dismissed is as not quite fitting.  That movement would be:

Platform 1 to Junction (unit 1)

Junction to Platform 2

Platform 1 to Junction (unit 2)

Junction to Platform 2

The units would then be in a different order.

However, what's shown is:

Platform 1 to Junction

Junction to Platform 1

Platform 1 to Junction

Junction to Platform 2

However, looking at these two sequences, the only difference is the second line.  Effectively lines 2 and 3 appear as the same entry in Realtime Trains (an arrival and departure), and presumably Realtime Trains can only display one platform where we effectively have two trains using the same head code.  It therefore looks like Realtime Trains is displaying the departing platform.  I'd therefore agree that this is probably the most likely operational reason.

What I don't understand is why it starts from Platform 1 and goes back to Platform 1 before ending up at Platform 2.  I initially wondered if it was a refuelling turn based on the booked times, but clearly the actual times indicate that's not the case.  I also wondered if it was to swap the order or the units (ie so that the same unit as was leading on the way into Fort William from Mallaig, was also leading on the journey south from Fort William despite the reversal at Fort William), but again, that doesn't look likely from the timings and would require the first move to be back to Platform 2.  

However, what I find even more interesting is the actual timings for the 12 April, because in this instance, the unit terminates in Platform 2 at 19:42 - 8 minutes before the Caledonian Sleeper left Platform 2 at 19:50.  This doesn't make sense as the terminating 5Y58 would have blocked the departing 1B01.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:FTW/2024-04-12/1955?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

First press article about the show.

https://www.midlothianview.com/news/midlothian-modeller-exhibiting-in-edinburgh

19 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

To be clear here.  I was not expecting a full history.  I would have liked some indications such as:

Livery introduced with the first 1907 build specs and continued until at least 19xx

Photographic evidence of this livery in use in 19xx ( and 19xx) - providing some potential limits

Livery in use until the take over in 19xx where progressive change commenced.

New livery introduced from roughly 19xx - either as an indicative start of end point.

Well that's a bit more than I was hoping for.  I suspect that in a lot of cases Rapido won't have that much detail and the livery as modelled may be based on a single photograph taken in 19xx.  When the livery first came into service or was replaced isn't necessarily relevant to painting a model, so I wouldn't expect Rapido to research that, but information that says 'based on a photograph from circa 19xx' would be useful - especially for those of us who don't possess a vast library of PO wagons books.

On 13/04/2024 at 11:16, KAR 120C said:

A yellow square with two ‘CC’s in black superimposed on it signifies that a ‘commuted charge’ payment has been made by the wagon owner.  This was introduced in 1926.

A yellow star also signifies that a ‘commuted charge’ payment has been made by the wagon owner.  This was introduced in 1933.

(This topic was considered back in 2012 in the ‘Private Owner Wagon Marking’ thread under UK Prototype Questions).

That's really useful, as it at least rules out one of the retailer specific models I was looking at as being 'too modern'.  Thankfully none of the ones I've pre-ordered from the main range and still to collect from my local retailer are so marked.  That doesn't mean they're definitely right for my period, but it's a start.

You could always invest in a Peco track gauge SL336 - https://peco-uk.com/products/6-way-gauge?variant=7435677499426

The Amazon website (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Peco-SL-336-6ft-Way-Gauge/dp/B002QVNAQC) gives the track centre to centre dimensions as 18+9=27mm for streamline and 26+9=37mm for set track spacing.

The absolute minimum you could probably get away with would therefore be ~135mm (~5.3'').

45 minutes ago, younGGuns7 said:

 Erm late to this party 🤦‍♂️ anybody know where there are any ACC 2669 left ?

There is one on E-bay - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/166710557351

Looks like most retailers have sold out from a quick Google search.

Yes, the wagons were around from 1907, but that doesn't mean that the liveries that Rapido have applied date from that period.  Some are Edwardian period liveries, but others seem to definitely be post-Grouping.  I just can't tell which are which.

20 hours ago, Dominion said:

The photos of the actual products on their website look really excellent.

https://malcsmodels.co.uk/collections/rapido-wagons

That link should show all 5 they have done. Here is one example.

 

 

Malc's has commissioned some very useful colliery wagons in the mix.

Can anyone advise which of these are in pre-grouping liveries?

For those who use Facebook, there is an option to win a free Family ticket worth £18.  Just like and Share today's post.

https://www.facebook.com/EdinburghLothianMRC

Does anyone know if this model of the Forth Bridge in T Gauge still exists?

13 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Scenic modelling isn't about striving for accuracy, but creating an impression.

And it looks like it achieves that.

14 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Now, to my mind, the bridge is too low - there isn't enough space for beams under the rails, whether they run lengthways or crossways. I might well be alone in my thoughts since no one else has commented on it.

No I agree with you, but since it doesn't really detract from the overall scene, it's probably not worth criticising.  What could be done to improve it?  Probably lowering the two girders either side of the track so that more of each girder is below rail level.  However, that would leave very little space between the water surface and the underside of the girder, which could look just as strange.  Perhaps the stream shouldn't be so wide: the narrower the stream, the smaller the cross section of the beams under the track would have to be (assuming they run parallel with the track).

43 minutes ago, zarniwhoop said:

As always, I probably ask the wrong question, but this has helped me clarify my thoughts.

Good, because I'm not sure what you are actually asking.  Going by the title of the thread, I'd say "how long is a piece of string?"  The height between rail head and a stream passing under the track could be anywhere between 2m and 200m, so near enough 2cm to 2m in H0 scale.  The choice is really what captures the essence of what you're trying to model - ie what looks right.  Use blocks of wood or whatever you have to hand with a piece of track on top to try and decide what looks best or captures what you are imagining.

50 minutes ago, zarniwhoop said:

All I have found for pre-made baseboards or kits of parts are frames where the ply top holds the board rigid.

Off the shelf, yes, but some of these providers will do custom jobs if you can provide a detailed drawing of what you want.  It doesn't need to be in CAD, but you will need to give all the dimensions and custom work will obviously cost more.

The alternative is to just buy a standard flat top kit and then cut away parts of the baseboard to allow your stream to be modelled.  Most of these baseboards have a depth of around 100mm, which is so you can mount Tortoise point motors etc under the track.  However, you obviously wouldn't be fitting point motors under a stream.  Where you've cut out the top (and therefore weakened the structure), you could fit additional ply on the underside under your stream.  How well this would work would depend on how much of the board you were looking to cut away.

Maybe an alternative would be to use these upside down.  You could then make a track-bed to be fitted to what would normally be the underside of the board and you just profile the upside down front edge to achieve what you want.

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

no ones checking the serial numbers of those £20’s to see if the exact same road tax £20’s are being poured into a money pit on the A14 and not an a community outreach centre for retired insect lovers of Scunthorpe, but if it isn't the exact same £20 note, its another one identical to it, printed in the same place and coming out of the same rusty government vault, probably with conditions attached to it and an expectation that £25 will be returned later.

I think the point is more that the £20's don't need to tie up in any way at all.  They don't even need to be in the same ballpark.  Just because Vehicle Excise Duty draws in £X Million to central government funds doesn't mean £X Million has to be spend on roads.  It won't be if a community outreach centre for retired insect lovers of Scunthorpe were to be considered a bigger vote winner than spending the money on road maintenance.  The government could hike 'road tax' (either Vehicle Excise Duty or Fuel Duty) and spend the money on free rail travel if it so desired.

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

but tax doesn't have to always be punitive, it can be made to look appealing…

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/finance/rail-industry-finance/
 

Rail industry income. £22bn.

 

However there's some paper money here… The govt gives Network Rail £7bn, but counts £3.4bn as “other income” received from Network Rail.

so perhaps its really a £18.6bn railway ?

The UK has 31million tax payers.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/income-tax-liabilities-statistics-tax-year-2020-to-2021-to-tax-year-2023-to-2024/bulletin-commentary#:~:text=5.1 Number of Income Tax, UK in 2020 to 2021.

(section 2.2)

 

So if the £18bn was divided by the 31mn, it works out £50 per month, and we could have a free to use railway network for everyone.. young and old who pays the “Rail tax”.

Is this "rail tax" voluntary? 

If the railway were to become free to everyone who pays this tax, then my first question would be how many people would actually pay?  Of the 31 million income tax payers, some will make 500 trips per annum (two trips per day, five days per week, 50 weeks of the year) and others perhaps just a handful of trips.  Some won't travel by rail at all because there is no rail line between the places they travel between.  Whilst a £600 flat annual fare would represent exceptional value for some regular travellers, it probably doesn't represent good value for many occasional users.  Obviously, as you contract the number of people willing to pay a voluntary tax, your tax rate would have to rise to meet your fixed costs.  If only half of income tax payers were to sign up for your "rail tax", then the rate would have to be double your indicative value.  The only way for that not to happen would be to make it compulsory that all income tax payers pay, but that's really no different to increasing the rate of income tax and allocating a proportion of that to subsidising the rail network (which is effectively the current situation).

The other point is of course that the same source shows rail industry expenditure as £25 billion per annum.  That is the cost of running the existing level of service provision.  If everyone who pays the "rail tax" were to start making more journeys by rail (because the marginal cost of each additional journey has dropped to zero) then the cost of running the railway will increase and therefore the cost of your "rail tax" would have to increase as well.  If everyone were to make twice as many journeys, then you'd need twice as many trains and twice as many drivers so twice the cost.  That would therefore mean doubling your "rail tax".  If only half of income tax payers were signed up to your "rail tax", then you'd need to quadruple the rate. 

Extra travellers could probably be accommodated on many Scottish rural routes without significant infrastructure upgrades, but obviously there are large parts of the network that are capacity constrained (either line or terminal capacity) and the cost of that new infrastructure would also have to be met from your "rail tax", as what you are proposing at the moment really just covers the day to day operating costs, not the cost of adding an extra pair of lines to the West Coast Mainline and extra Platforms at London Euston or wherever people want to travel for free just because they've paid your "rail tax".  Once you set it at a level that provides for increase capacity (both network and services) you're talking about a lot more money, which would probably tend towards the current cost of a rail pass.  That is, purchasing a rail pass like the Spirit of Scotland is effectively the closest equivalent to your 'rail tax'.   For £189 you can have eight days unlimited travel over fifteen consecutive days.

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/tickets/combined-tickets-travel-passes/spirit-of-scotland

Sadly, I think your calculations are overly simplistic and not very realistic - a bit like the initial suggestion for a new railway line to serve Fort William.

Just now, 62613 said:

But you implied that it was used exclusively for roads maintenance and construction, which it isn't. I'm happy paying £3 - odd a week just to let my car rust away on the road (if that's what I wanted to do!)

I think that's a wider issue with regards misunderstanding about taxation.  There are also people who will tell you that National Insurance pays for state pensions and the NHS - again, it doesn't: the money raised just goes into the general taxation pot for the government of the day to use as it sees fit.  Vehicle Excise Duty is a tax that is paid if you want to own a car and use it on the public road network, but it doesn't just pay for road maintenance and could be regarded as a 'sin tax' in the same manner as duty on cigarettes, alcohol etc.

How road maintenance is paid for depends on who owns the road.  If it's a local authority road, then it will be paid for from Council Tax (and therefore paid by Council Tax payers irrespective of whether they own a car or not), albeit some local authority funding comes from national government payments, which will have come from the big pot of money that includes all forms of taxation (Income Tax, National Insurance, VAT, Fuel Duty, Vehicle Excise Duty etc).

31 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Sometimes we get a better world when economic considerations play second fiddle.

I agree and that's a major problem with the promotion of transport schemes in general.  In the past there has been a bias towards road based schemes because they are easier to present an economic case for.  A lot of road schemes have been shown to generate economic benefits that exceed the cost of construction, which means that they ultimately get built.  However, these nearly always assume a continual increase in traffic, so an increasing number of people will benefit and of course that also means that the counterfactual scenario is greater congestion than we have today.  The Scottish Government are now targeting a reduction in car use to meet NetZero (a desired 20% reduction in car kilometres by 2030) and therefore when taking account of negative traffic growth forecasts, many road schemes which previously indicated they were value for money can no longer demonstrate that.

Bus and rail schemes have historically been more difficult to promote because the economic case has been less easy to demonstrate.  In the case of bus, bus priority schemes generate benefits for bus passengers, but they also tend to hinder general traffic flow.  Therefore it's difficult to design a scheme where the benefits to bus users minus the dis-benefits to other road users minus the cost still produces a strong economic case: it usually doesn't.  In the case of rail schemes, rail patronage forecasts tend to be less bullish than road based travel despite passenger numbers on the rail network increasing over the two decades pre-COVID-19.  It's also more difficult to justify rail freight infrastructure because it tends to be trainloads or nothing and there is often no long term commitment to a rail freight flow, whereas for road based freight, it's simply assumed that if the road is built, it will be used. 

Clearly, there are a lot of other factors like carbon, ecology, etc which should be given more weight than the numbers output from a Cost Benefit Analysis Report.

12 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Try explaining that to the taxpayer, especially those skipping meals to subsidize someone else's vacation travel.

Where the burden of taxation should fall is a slightly different matter and if I were Chancellor of the Exchequer, I'd be making massive changes to the way in which the government taxes the electorate, but that's straying from whether a proposal for new rail infrastructure is viable / affordable, into the world of politics.

35 minutes ago, FelixM said:

But what do you think, is it an idea worth to persist with?

I can't see it happening - it would be too expensive to build with too little patronage to justify the cost. 

The HSTs and DMUs will all be gone within the next decade, so as a proposal it would need to be considered in the context of the next generation of stock, where all passenger services will either be Electric Multiple Units (EMUs), Battery Electric Multiple Units (BEMUs) or Hydrogen powered.  Glasgow to Aberdeen / Inverness services will almost certainly be EMUs or BEMUs depending on how much of each route has overhead wires erected before the existing stock needs to be replaced.  However, I'm not aware of any plans for overhead on the West Highland line.  These services (ie the current ones to Oban, Fort William and Mallaig) are likely to either be hydrogen powered or BEMUs depending on the advancement of these technologies and which one appears most promising when the investment decision needs to be made.  There may therefore be operational issues if there was a desire to run a hydrogen powered unit for Fort William in multiple with an EMU for say Inverness as the two units would presumably have quite different operating characteristics.

That's less of an issue with the current set-up as the Oban and Fort William trains are likely to be the same class of unit, so could continue to operate as they currently do.

Would it help with connecting freight from Fort William (Corpach) to the rest of the network?  If it was electrified then yes, but otherwise, I suspect that freight on the West Highland will simply die off under the de-carbonisation agenda, because I'm not convinced that either hydrogen or battery technologies provide the power necessary to move freight on non-electrified lines over significant distances.

48 minutes ago, matchmaker said:

It's a 46 page thread - can someone please point me in the direction of the right page? Many thanks!

Try from page 35, when people started to receive the WCRC models.

According to Wikipedia, that's correct.  They're apparently 800 m (2600 ft) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurotunnel_Folkestone_Terminal.

In 00 that would make them 10.5 m or 34' in length.

Interestingly, the platforms at Beauly are even shorter than I thought.  In 00 they'd be just 8 inches long, so clearly the answer to the original question is somewhere between these two extremes (assuming 1:76 scale).