jjnewitt

Wow that looks great. It looks just like a brush type 4! I like what you've done with the buffers. Looking forward too seeing it painted. Justin

If you really want to try sorting the Lima model out Howes currently have spares for the Heljan Western including the bits for the drivetrains. Justin.

My green Dapol Western turned up on Saturday and has spent the past few days sat next to my Heljan example. The longer it sits there the worse the Heljan model looks. The Dapol model looks much more like a Western, particularly in the front area. The curves look like they're in the right places which cannot be said of the Heljan ones and I'm not just talking about the infamous 'peak'. The Heljan model looks particularly flat below the cab windows. Some other observations based on what's been written in this thread. Interestingly, after measuring them with a vernier caliper, the openings for the headcode glazing on the Dapol model are actually a tiny bit bigger than the Heljan ones. The hole for the roof fan grill on the Dapol model is 14mm in diameter. They've done the usual RTR thing with etching a surround on the grill so making it smaller. There are areas with which I'm a little disapointed, the main one being the paint finish which is horribly flat and matt. So that's one bit of it that doesn't look like the real thing then. Another is the brakes as the inner shoes have been moulded to the boige detailing and set for OO wheels. No good for P4 conversions or EM ones for that matter. Whilst on wheels I always thought that Western wheels were 3'7" so why aren't the wheels on both the models 14.33mm in diameter? All in all I think it's a fantastic model which with a couple of additions (roof grills and a winscreen etch) and a P4 conversion will certainly do me. Most importantly it looks like a Western. Something that previous models haven't achieved. So if you want top notch out of the box Western buy a Dapol model. If you want a top notch Western and are prepared to do a little work buy the Dapol model as you're going to have to spend a whole heap of time and effort getting any of the others looking this good. Justin

The Western wheelbase was 6'1" + 6'1" so a good deal smaller than the English Electric 3 axle bogie. As far as I can know there are no other British diesels with a similar wheelbase.

Of course! The primary springs should be straight forward but the secondary suspension could be interesting to say the least. I spent some time looking at the bogies on the one at the NRM before christmas and I have visions of those little coil springs working for a living. That's not to say I'll be able to make it work but I'll give it a go!

If they don't get the required number you could always make your own conversion set? Ultrascale make a Western diesel disc wheel for a very good price. I've got 2 P4 sets waiting for Empress and Druid to arrive. Add a piercing saw or hacksaw blade, some shorting strips (Brassmasters) and some 2mm inside diameter plastic tube for use as spacers and away you go. If the wheels are good enough and you can get them off you could consider just replacing the stub axles. Ultrascale (again) now supply axle material in 2mm diameter. I assume of course that the axles are 2mm.

More an overstretched King I think. The Princess Royals were not well balanced at all and look a bit ungainly. The bogie needs moving backwards a few feet and the whole thing shortening, like they did with the Duchesses. The Jubilees were handsome machines but the best of them (IMHO) were Comet and Pheonix with their 2A boilers. If we hadn't had the BR standards then all the Jubilees would have ended up like that along with the Patriots. Instead we got the best looking of the BR Standards, the Brits. Justin

Congratulations to Dave and everyone involved in the project the finished article looks great. It'll look even better when those little coil springs work properly and it's sat in front of a rake of milk tanks. The green looks a bit odd in some of those photos, almost grey, but then photos do funny things sometimes. There seems to be a lot more depth to it than the paintwork on the class 22 though which can only be a good thing. Can't wait for mine to arrive, nameplates and CAD program all ready!

Hi Darren, That particular wagon looks more like a transformer wagon to me rather than something specifically built to carry the barrels of guns for warships. I haven't seen one quite that big before and am unsure of it's origin but there's some pictures of a couple of BR built (LMS design) examples here: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brtransformer The GWR had a variety of wagons built for the purpose of carring gunsets code named Pollen. These later found use transporting girders after modification. The LMS I think had something similar. Photos here: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrgirdwagpollen Justin

Hi Martyn, I'd missed that thread on the Slater's milk tanks. I don't browse that particular part of RMweb very often. There's a couple of interesting links in there as well. Having looked at the Slater's kit I can see no reason why the same thing as I'm doing for the David Geen kit couldn't be done for them. Essentially the 3000 gallon tank range is the same, GWR O.38 and LMS 1994. As you say the chassis/ running gear is very similar for most of them. Taking the GWR range of milk tanks the underframe was the same for all the 20'6" vehicles with the only change being the switch from Dean Churchward to Morton brakes. My intention for the 4mm stuff is to do a detailing etch for the lever brakes/lifting links and then most of the diagrams from O.51 to O.65 can also be built. The arrangement of tank fittings, walkways and platforms were all different of course but there are drawings that show these (The GWR weight diagrams for all the milk tanks are avaliable from the OPC microfilm collection at the NRM, all the details are shown on them). If the GWR twin tank wagon has the correct 21'6" chassis then the other types could be constructed from that. It would be fairly easy to modify the LMS kit to a 2173 by changing the underframe slightly. The underframes for these looked like this: Once I start getting the bits back I'll start a thread detailing some of the 4mm conversions which might give you a few ideas. Justin

Hi Steve, I found your rail served dairies in Suffolk thread and so that Halesworth was a United Dairies facility. This gives you lots of scope for different diagrams. I’ll post a complete list on here as a reference when it’s done but to give you some idea the following were associated with United Dairies: GWR: O.38, O.39, O.44, O.45, O.47, O.51, O.57, O.60 LMS: 1993, 1994, 2173 SR: 3155, 3157, 3159 LNER: 184, 333 During 1959 United Dairies merged with Cow & Gate and also Aplin & Barrett to form Unigate so from this point the following (other) types could also be seen: GWR: O.55, O.56, O.58, O.63 These are all 3000 gallon types. United Dairies also had a few 2000 gallon types and Ro-Rail types could also be a possibility until about 1961 when they were discontinued. As for Scaling up the etches it would depend on how easy it would be and also how useful it would be. The chassis are designed around the David Geen kit and despite the contents only really replace a dozen parts from it. The rest has to come from somewhere. Detailing parts may be more useful but it depends on how much work is required to make them useable. There may be issues around sizes of holes and also fold lines. The SR/GWR platforms use a lot of 0.31mm wire which when scaled up equates to 0.54mm. Things like this may be an issue? Has anyone got any experience of doing this kind of thing? I’ve got to get all the bits done in 4mm first though before I think about it! Justin Edit: link added.

Perhaps he fell asleep tackling all those rivets and hasn't woken up yet!!! I shall do my best to make it that day, it sounds great. I'm between jobs at the moment and haven't got a clue where I'm going to be in July, work usually takes up weekends as well, but I'll drop you a line a bit closer to the time when I know where I am at. Hopefully they'll still be space, it sounds like it's going to be popular though. It should be! Going back to the SR milk tank do you know why it was painted in Express Dairies livery? I've come across pictures of some of the other wagons from that batch, 4404-9 diagram 3159, in their four wheel days and they were in use with United Dairies. A seperate reference that has come to light also states this.

That looks like a very interesting day! I like the idea of seeing bits of Didcot that you don't usually get to see. I shall have to see what I'm up to. I have a liking for interesting and unusual wagons and the Pollens would make a great model, as would the wonderful 24 wheeled Crocodile L but the Pollens still exist and don't have quite so many rivets! Do you know if there's any plans to refurbish 101 and also the milk tank trailer? 101 always looks a little bit sad when I see it hidden away behind the carriage sheds. I was a little bit suprised to find an SR milk tank at Didcot when I first saw it but it's great that it's there. There are quite a few GWR/WR examples preserved but only a couple of SR ones. It's just a shame an LNER example wasn't preserved as well

Hi Derek, A lot of milk tanks seem to have found alternative empolyment. Not looking bad for a vehicle that was 47 years old! I can't imagine there were many DC braked wagons knocking around the network by the mid eighties! Nice view of the platforms. I've just finished CAD drawings for these. We shall see how easy they are to put together, there isn't much to them.

Hi Castle, Thanks for posting those.I'm very familiar with those two vehicles and that SR milk tank inparticular having spent a cold day in December measuring it up. I think the livery on it is accurate. The Ro-Rail tanks are great but they're a little bit before my period of interest. The captioning for is incorrect though. It certainly isn't an O.58. These were twin tank wagons on the long (21'6" over headstocks) GWR chassis. There's a picture of one here. Paul Bartlett also has a picture of W3030 on his website and list it as an O.49 which is more like it. These were significantly longer than the rest of the milk carrying fleet having underframes nearly 28 feet long. There were other, earlier shorter Ro-Rail tanks based upon standard 6 wheel chassis. Presumably the increase in length corrsponded with an increase in the size of the road trailers. There's also this a Didcot which is of interest: http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/wagons/101/101.html It was built as a drinking water tank but is pretty much the same as a milk tank and the chassis is exactly the same type (20'6" GWR lever braked). Drinking Water tanks were interesting. They were used at outlying stations where there was no reliable drinking water access. As far as I'm aware they had to be returned to Swindon to be replenshed. There were examples at Morton on Lugg and Titley Juction in Herefordshire. So if you see a photo of a single milk tank standing in a siding at a station somewhere it might not be a milk tank! I must get back to Didcot at some time and measure up those wonderful Pollen Es that are there. Hi Ian, As far as I'm aware there are no kits for the Ro-Rail tank chassis. David Geen did talk about doing a 4mm kit presumably for the early 20'6" Dean Churchward braked examples (O.37) as thes would have used many parts from his GWR milk tank kit but nothing has been forthcomming so far. I think he was a bit disappointed in sales of the LMS kits he did and hasn't done any since. I think a lot of people think of milk tanks as being region specific vehicles (GWR, LMS etc) but certainly post nationalsiation they worked effectively as private owner wagons for whichever dairy owned the tank and got all over the place. The other companies also had their own variations on the Ro-Rail theme.

That's quite ok Martyn. Yes all three of those lots were to diagram O.42 and all were Express Dairies. No other Dairies had milk tanks to that diagram. The diagram O.42s were the only Dean-Churchward braked vehicles that were built specifically for Express Dairies though they did inherit some O.35s, O.38s and and O.43s from Independant Milk Supplies and West Park Dairy Co. The O.38s were very similar to the O.42s except for a different arrangement of fittings on top of the tank.

Evening Martyn, Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but yes that one is also wrongly numbered. W2960 was a United Dairies diagram O.51 which had lever brakes and central platforms. There's a picture of W2960 on Paul Bartlett's website though not in use for carrying milk. Milk Tanks tended to be built in very small numbers. 2 or 3 here, 5 or 6 there. The diagram O.36s consisted of one lot of just 3 vehicles.The LMS were not much different with a Diagram 1991 one that also consisted of 3 vehicles. The SR managed one diagram, 3158, with a grand total of 2 vehicles in it's ranks. I'm not entirely sure why there needed to be quite so many different variations and so diagrams. There are times when it's obvious such as when platforms are used or there are twin tanks but sometimes it's difficult at times to tell the difference. I haven't got a clue what the difference between the O.57s and O.60s was but it could have been as little as an inch difference in tank lengths. One size fits all did not apply to milk tanks!!

Hi jwealleans, Thanks I'll have to keep an eye out for that book. I have a rather nice GA drawing from the NRM for a Diagram 333 type which is where I got the information for the underframe from but the rest is a mystery. It's good that some were built for United Dairies. I'll be able to include one in the formation for my model of the Whitland to Kensington. Hi Rod, Thanks for that. I'll have to look into those articles.

Hi Martyn, The model you have posted the picture of is a GWR O.42. These were Express Dairies tanks and is the same diagram as my model above depicts. I need to change mine as Express Dairies didn't (as far as I'm aware) have any concerns in South Wales, which is my area of interest, and so is unsuitable. It will get rebuilt into a United Dairies GWR O.39 once I've got the etches for the platforms done. Without wishing to be too much of a pedant the number on your model doesn't correspond with an O.42. W2009 was a United Dairies O.44 and is still in existance at Mangapps. There's a picture of it here. They began life as 4 wheel tanks to diagram O.23 but were rebuilt as 6 wheelers and became diagram O.44 in the process. They had different arrangements for the tank strapping brackets, tank fittings and also supports from the O.42s. The O.42s also originally had cooling covers but these were later removed. Numbers for the O.42s were as follows: Lot 1561 built 9/35 2561-2563 Lot 1607 built 8/37 2593-2594 Lot 1613 built 8/37 2595-2598 Add a W depending on timeframe of course. Always nice to see pictures of milk tank models.

Hi Nick, Of course! All the etches will be avaliable once they're done and I'm happy with them. It might be a little while before everything's done though, there's a lot to get through! Hi Chris, That would be fantasic thanks. Any help would be much appreciated.

I am currently in the process of creating a number of etches to convert the David Geen 4mm kit to types not covered by the two currently avaliable. This is a lengthy process and has involved measuring up vehicles in the Winter cold and trips to the NRM in search of drawings (it's a hard life I know ). There will evenually be 6 chassis etches covering GWR 20'6 and 21'6 types, Post War LMS diagrams and the other LMS ones, SR and LNER. CAD drawings for the chassis are all but complete (you'd be suprised how many differences there are) and will be similar to this: Then there will be detailing etches covering things like brake levers, walk ways, ladders and platforms etc all in order to produce a model of the Whitland to Kensington milk train in the mid sixties. Details of the models I've attacked so far and further details on the chassis can be found here. And just to wet you appetite: As you can imagine with a type of vehicle that covered some 50 odd diagrams (including 2000 gallon types and Ro-Rail trailers) from 4 underframe 'suppliers' there are some grey areas that I hope someone out there will be able to help with. LNER milk tanks: I have details of the diagram numbers for these but no information on lot numbers, running numbers and almost as important which dairies had which lots. The other three companies allocated lots to a batch of vehicles for a specific diary so I assume that the LNER did the same? If anyone can help with this or point me in the right direction that would be great. Also any photos of LNER types again would be great. I'm aware of the photos on Paul Bartlett's site. I seem to remember seeing a photo of one with platforms somewhere but I have no idea where it was. SR milk tanks: I have details of diagrams and running numbers and some for which diaries were associated with which type. Diagrams 3155 and 3157 where Unigate (eventually of course) and 3159 were Express Dairies, does anyone have any information on the others? GWR milk tanks: Does anyone know which Dairies were assocaited with diagrams O.61 and O.63? A good reference for milk tank diagrams collated from various scources can be found here. It isn't exhaustive but it's a start. Many thanks, Justin

The GWR had some very similar wagons, 63 ton 24 wheel Crocodile Ls, which I've had similar thoughts about. Then I look at the number of rivets and turn the page! It does say TRANSFORMER MC on the photo in post 36 and does look as if it could well say that in the picture in post 7. It is very, very similar to the LMS wagon that I mentioned in a previous post, but then given the M in the code you'd expect it to be based on an LMS design.