47137

This is incredible.

@Barclay has kindly sent me a scan from MRJ, and points out that the eighty locomotives built from 1888 to 1946 don't seem to vary very much!

I am sit down with the drawing of the "Easingwold Railweay no.2" and my Ixion model and try to spot the differences.

@Ruston I simply quote '1888' from the instruction leaflet supplied by Ixion. If I can make a model of an earlier prototype this sounds brilliant.

- Richard.

1 hour ago, Barclay said:

Let me know if you need a scan

PM sent.

21 minutes ago, doilum said:

If this helps, there is a book and lots of photographic material. There might once have been a detailed article in MRJ which has, I believe, an on line index.

It looks like I need to find MRJ No. 31, 1989

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69095-idea-conversion-of-ixion-hudswell-clarke/&do=findComment&comment=973524

I did five or six Internet searches for "Ixion RMweb" before I started this topic and none of them found this discussion ...

- Richard.

6 minutes ago, doilum said:

The Easingwold railway had very similar looking locomotives dating back to the very early years of the 20th century.

Ooooh ... thank you very much.

- Richard.

12 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

I think you mean Buyers, and to date I have not suffered this. It depends on what the seller has offered/ stated in their description.

 

I have seen (suffered from) some sellers buying the postal labels on the day but delay posting for several days.

 

Many though for good reasons take a few days to wrap up and post items, which is fine. Communication is the key

 

I message buyers to confirm I have physically posted the item, appreciated by most

I do it the other way - when I print the label I message the buyer to tell them the parcel is wrapped up and I will be going to the post office tomorrow or the day after or whenever. People seem to appreciate this, as you say communication is the key.

- Richard

59 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Sorry, I can't help myself, this thread is going off at a tangent so let's help it along with some more overpriced junk on ebay...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133109176003

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183794886028

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124692601818

Not much point kicking THOSE tyres...

Actually I quite fancy that threshing machine ... I do not have the skills or knowledge to restore it or a place to keep it, but it does look like very original piece.

- Richard.

As the RMweb grows ever bigger I find it harder to decide where to start a new post. This one especially could go with "modifying RTR", "prototype questions", "Ixion" or "7mm". But I suspect, the folk who know the most about the subject tend to hang out here.

I have indulged myself in an Ixion model of a Hudswell-Clarke 0-6-0, this model represents a 13 x 20" locomotive built in the late 1920s. Production began in 1888, and I wonder if it would be feasible to alter the model to represent one of the earlier locomotives? A pointer to a useful book or photographs would be great.

Many thanks.

- Richard.

6 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I made a successful bid on a loco the other day.   

The seller sent me a snotty email badgering me to pay only three hours later. 

To be fair on eBay this is really an annoying seller not an annoying platform.

I do not do this. If a buyer doesn't pay they get a reminder from eBay after a while.

- Richard.

2 hours ago, ianmacc said:

Absolutely avoid Hermes at all costs…

I agree entirely but sellers can hide their use of Hermes behind this eBay phrase "other courier", and "other courier" can equally well be DHL or DX or similar who are dependable and professional businesses.

I have a note taped onto my front door telling them where to put my parcel  (politely!) but I know this won't help if they cannot find the house.

- Richard.

My own annoyance right now is when eBay use the words "other courier" to describe the delivery service when I buy something.

If this happens to be Hermes(!!) this company will send me multiple emails telling me there was no-one to accept the package and nowhere to leave it either, invariably to cover themselves because their driver of the day could not find my house. Eventually I will get a refund for non-delivery and have to start again ...

- Richard.

On 06/12/2021 at 21:24, Ian Kirk said:

Well done your wagon looks to me exactly like the original last time I saw it.  I should explain that I am not quite as old as that but this kit was originally in my range. Then Parkside, now Peco.  Pete Westwater who did the original detail tooling (I completed it to run on one of my machines) had actually bought a 12 inch to the foot example which had been until then in use at a government establishment. This was duly repainted into NBR livery pretty well exactly as you have it (I can't remember the number) and is now preserved at the Kingdom of Fife Preservation Society. We got the painting details from a works photo showing one of these just finished by the builders Hurst Nelson of Motherwell.  I tried to find the photo but so far no luck. I have gathered an awful lot of stuff in my 50+ years in the Trade.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

Ian, I could not ask for a better accolade, but really a great deal of the success of this model is down to the first-rate mouldings ... the credit is due to Pete and yourself who did the tooling, and to Peco who have supplied absolutely spot-on parts.

I have bought the Peco/Parkside "Jubilee" wagon to try in the New Year.

- Richard.

On 11/12/2021 at 14:17, John M Upton said:

Ebay keep pestering me to add more and more item specifics, the latest one is to specify 'Power Type' on a wagon!!!  It is listed under wagons too so this specific should not be there, and the only options are AC and DC.

I expect this is for the Continental people, to let them show when a model is for the Marklin system.

- Richard.

On 14/09/2021 at 22:06, Compound2632 said:

I think that's maybe problematic, since works numbers would surely be used consecutively. I suppose not all works numbers would be assigned to locomotives, though, if Manning Wardle were also making other things?

 

This list of preserved engines at least gives you some idea of the likely number range for your date, with 641 built 1877, 865 built 1882, and 1207 built 1890, that's on average a little over 40 works numbers per year, so an engine built in 1885 would presumably have been around the high 900s - low 1000s.

I have received the plates from Light Railway Stores so here she is:

I spent ages worrying about the build year but it turns out to be illegible ... so if I rewind my setting back to 1886 I am sure everything will still look fine :-)

- Richard

More thinking.

We can use lighting to make colours on the layout more intense or even a different hue, but we cannot emulate the effects of distance. This needs muted colours on the model. I was using muted colours for scenery nine years ago but it is taking me a while to realise I have to do it for the trains too.

The task is fairly easy for early colours because we will never know the true shade of the mid grey or red viewed from close up or from a distance ... so both can be acceptable.

- Richard.

Yes. For a colour chart, I would want largish patches - at least the size of an item of rolling stock.

Our task is harder because our red wagon is firmly at the other end of the spectrum too.

I do feel, this topic is taking me towards thinking the colour applied to a model must be the prototype colour, with all compensation for using this colour on a model being done through the lighting rig. This rather rubbishes the long-established views about altering colours to suit a model. The only practical alteration we would have reduces to choosing the amount of shine on the varnish.

This approach also needs the lighting rig to emit exactly the right spectrum of light, without unwanted peaks or troughs. This is going to be difficult for the model maker to assess in an objective way.

- Richard.

So the sensible way to build a model railway layout is to build the baseboard, and add the lighting rig because it is so important and the completed backscene because it is a large surface and reflects light onto the scene.

Take a model of a known colour, perhaps Rail Blue, and tweak the lighting rig until this model looks just right for the chosen time of year and time of day. This is subjective of course.

Only then start painting the track and doing the ballast, and make sure this looks right under the chosen lighting.

And finally, when all this is done, paint the wagon in one's perception of GWR Red and adjust this paint mix until it too looks right.

And, unless modelling a preservation scene, take away the Rail Blue item.

This has a logic to it, and it is what I am doing for my "Shelf Marshes" layout (where the lighting rig is adjustable for colour temperature and brightness), but for my 7mm project I am very definitely building the rolling stock first and then building the layout to suit. I ought to be able to get away with this because everyone can guess what a 1890s tree and indeed ash and soot should look like, but no-one knows the shades of wagon red and grey.

- Richard.

1 hour ago, MikeOxon said:

I agree with your points but we were referring to light reflected from an object, not a light source.  The spectrum emitted from an illuminated object depends on the light source.  Also the brain's perception includes 'experience', which modifies our perception under different light sources.  This is why a camera needs to have 'white balance' adjustments.  We can continue by PM if you wish, to avoid cluttering up this thread.

59 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think we should stop here. I had intended that my comment about lighting conditions and colour reference standards to cover the case of light reflected from the object.

As the OP I am completely happy to carry on here. It is going to be some weeks before I have built an early open wagon with an iron underframe and a 9 foot wheelbase and I am happy to learn.

- Richard.

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

True enough but in the pursuit of historical accuracy one would like one's perception of the colour of one's model to be the same as one's perception of the colour of the prototype would have been had one been there to perceive it.

 

An object has an objective colour whatever subjective variation there may be in the perception of that colour. 

Were you by chance a pupil of Sir Humphrey Appleby?

And please can I use this post in my signature block?

- Richard.

4 hours ago, Scorpio7uk said:

You also have to consider 'scale colour' - if you paint a 7mm or 4mm  loco with the exact shade of green the 1:1 loco is painted, it usually looks completely wrong probably because of the 'size' of the area of colour and the way the eye/brain sees colour - I don't really know the science behind it, I only know this is the case.

I am complete newcomer to 7mm scale, only three months' or so experience now, but I think the larger scale is more tolerant to variations in colour. Or if you prefer, errors in colour.

I have no idea why. I view my models from much the same distance, so I suppose a subconscious part of me thinks the larger model is 'nearer'. When I get close to a prototype, perhaps a train at a station platform, the underlying colour can vary a great deal because of age or dirt but always looks 'right'. But then I suppose it has to! I've never seen a prototype and thought a warning yellow was somehow wrong, yet there has been a huge amount of variation.

Perhaps, I am being distracted by seeing more detail in the larger scale and this is shutting out colour problems. Still, if this greater latitude for larger scales is true, it will only help me :-)

- Richard.

I have just remembered, I used Halfords red oxide primer as the top coat for a supposedly "repaired" hood on a 1:87 BYA steel carrier. So here are two photos to merely show the effects of lighting on "red":

Exposed with daylight-balanced flash:

Exposed with ceiling light (LED bulb, supposedly 'cool white'):

The difference in the white foam board background is quite pronounced.

(The photos were processed from the camera RAW files by Apple's 'Photos' app, but not maniuplated except to create the jpg files "optimised for most viewers")

I am happy looking at both reproductions, but I think I should aim for colours which look 'right' under the flash because I want to share my photos on RMweb and the flash is the most consistent source of light I have. But there are other things at work here - I happen to have the ceiling and walls painted white to make less of a colour cast on the layout. Many folk have more imaginative decoration.

- Richard.

The funny thing is, I shot the tank wagon with Halfords red oxide primer and it stayed like this for weeks. I decided to myself, "the paint of the day must have been closer to Indian Red" (fully knowing Indian Red covers quite a spectrum) so I mixed up and brushed on my DIY colour. And I never took a photo of the wagon in its red oxide.

- Richard.

If we look at photos of faded red cars

https://www.flickr.com/groups/fadedred/pool/page4/

then the fading varies with manufacturer. Vaukhalls go pink (as expected!), Fords go paler red and VWs look like red oxide.

I suppose, cars from the 1960s and earlier had lead in their paint so these might give a better idea of how a wagon could fade ... although the car paint will contain additives unavailable to the Victorians. Then again, if we cannot distinguish between a red wagon and a grey wagon, no-one will tell us our faded red paint is "wrong". And if they do, they probably ought to get out more :-)

- Richard.

1 minute ago, Miss Prism said:

Indian Red

 

Adding white to your wagon red would better capture a weathered (i.e. usual) shade.

 

Yes.

I suppose, what would be sensible would be for me to alter the mix for each new wagon I build. I could leave the tank wagon as it is, and add some white for my future 4-plank GWR one. Using paint from the jar for a new model will make space to add fresh paint to make a new shade for the next one.

I forgot to mention - I usually use the matt version of Tamiya paints. This time I bought a jar of red gloss and added matt brown and matt yellow to change the colour. The result was a bit blotchy, not really gloss or satin, but this improved a lot after I put a satin varnish (Humbrol enamel) over the top. Next time I will start with a matt base colour.

- Richard.

Hmm ... white lead or red lead. It would have been durable and as you say, hydrophobic. Using the technology of the day.

I had a go at mixing some red for a model tar wagon:

On the right is the factory finish red on a Dapol wagon, this is tempered by the factory weathering, and in the centre is the source pot. I added a fair amount of Nato Brown (this is quite like the sides of railway rails) and a little yellow.

I called this "Indian Red" but I know there was a GWR Indian Red (quite brown) and there is the Wikipedia specification of it (pinkish) and they are widely different.

Thinking about red for a wagon, I think I am in the right part of the spectrum but adding some white might help to make the colour more muted and a little more pinkish?

- Richard.

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Also, I've changed my mind about whether red wagons would have red or black running gear, though I'm still not entirely convinced one way or the other.

I have just received a kit for an ancient brake van from the Mid Wales Railway: https://sixteenmills.yolasite.com/10mm.php (the 7mm version). I will rehome this to my fictional railway in Essex.

The instructions explain, "The correct livery is unknown, but mid grey or maybe dark red seemed appropriate for the period".

So - if a railway as well-documented as the GWR is a bit hazy I don't much fancy my chances with the MWR. I have a chance of being historially correct, also not much chance of being proved wrong; and I could invent a third scheme for my railway. My decision can be what looks most pleasing :-)

- Richard.