Peter A Hall

The Northern Counties Transport Society website now has images of the covers of the first six ICRS 'Shunter stabling Point-Allocations / Shunter Duties' which should help those with copies establish which they have.  Also, they now have images of the five known editions of 'Where the !*!*! are they'.

On the website hover over 'Spotting' on the top bar.  Then click on 'Depot & Stabling Point Guides' in the drop down menu.  The direct link is Depot & Stabling Point Guides. 

I have now been gifted a copy of the Second Edition of the ICRS 'SHUNTER STABLING-POINT ALLOCATIONS' as Shunter Duties was titled for its first two editions.

As previously mentioned the covers of the first two editions have a line drawing of 4144 super imposed on the outline of Great Britain.  They are though not the same drawing as was originally suggested.  See the attached files.

Cover Shunter Duties 1.pdf Cover Shunter Duties 2.pdf

On 03/01/2022 at 22:16, Peter A Hall said:

From May 1977 the 'Up' was advertised as a through train to Waterloo departing 0657. Another comment elsewhere is that it then became "8TC+33/1 to Basingstoke where it attached to a 4-Rep ex Barton Mill Sidings".  Yet another quote has it that this 4-Rep arrived as 2212 Bournemouth-Basingstoke the previous evening.

 

 

Thanks to a couple of chaps who have been able to access CWNs for 1977/78 & 1978/79 this appears to be how things actually worked in these years:-

The Up SX 06:57 ex Salisbury combined at Basingstoke with the 07:17 ex Eastleigh before going forward to Waterloo. The formation to Basingstoke was 33/1+4TC from Salisbury / 4Vep+4Vep from Eastleigh; formation from Basingstoke was 33/1+4TC+4Vep+4Vep. It is noted that Platform 9 was used at Waterloo, perhaps significant due to the train length.

The Down SX 18:10 Waterloo-Salisbury was 33/1+4TC(ex 'Kenny Belle')+4TC(ex above). At Salisbury these were split and the 4TC did the following:-

1977/78
Tuesday-Friday
1 - ecs to Basingstoke for 07:39 Basingstoke - Salisbury, 17:19 Salisbury - Basingstoke*
2 - 06:57 ex Salisbury and as above.
Saturday
1 & 2 - ecs to Basingstoke then 06:28 Basingstoke-Waterloo with 4Rep off FO 22:12 Bournemouth - Basingstoke

NB - Monday
1- 07:39 Basingstoke - Salisbury, 17:19 Salisbury - Basingstoke* off a Sunday Pompey - Basingstoke - Reading diagram.
2 -06:57 ex Salisbury and as above. This arrived by way of the SUN 21:59 Reading - Yeovil Junction

* - the 4TC off the 17:19 ex Salisbury is coupled to 4Rep+4TC off FSX 22:12 Bournemouth-Basingstoke and forms MSX 07:10 Basingstoke-Waterloo. On Saturdays the 4TC works 07:39 Basingstoke-Salisbury, 09:12 Salisbury-Basingstoke then Sunday Pompey - Basingstoke - Reading diagram starting Basingstoke

1978/79
Tuesday-Friday
1 - ecs to Basingstoke for 07:40 Basingstoke - Salisbury, 17:20 Salisbury - Basingstoke*
2 - 06:57 ex Salisbury and as above.
Saturday
1 - ecs to Basingstoke then 06:28 Basingstoke-Waterloo with 4Rep off FO 22:12 Bournemouth - Basingstoke and 4TC off FO 17:20 Salisbury-Basingstoke
2- 09:10 Salisbury-Basingstoke then Sunday Pompey - Basingstoke - Reading diagram starting Basingstoke

NB - Monday
1- 07:40 Basingstoke - Salisbury, 17:20 Salisbury - Basingstoke* off a Sunday Pompey - Basinsingstoke - Reading diagram.
2 -06:57 ex Salisbury and as above. This arrived by way of the SUN 21:59 Reading - Yeovil Junction

* - the 4TC off the 1720 ex Salisbury is coupled to 4Rep+4TC off FSX 22:12 Bournemouth-Basingstoke and forms MSX 07:10 Basingstoke-Waterloo. On Saturdays 06:28 ex Basingstoke as above.

As far as can be established, in both timetables the SO 06:57 Salisbury-Basingstoke and in 1978/79, the SO 07:40 Basingstoke-Salisbury, were DEMU.

Quite probably the same applied in 1979/1980, so far no one was has come forward who is able to check the relevant documents.

On 13/07/2010 at 11:42, 45156 said:

The unusual formations of EMU/TC/Loco were designated EML in the working timetables, and they did certainly prove the versatility of the stock - one of these that I remember was out of Bournemouth (ISTR it was a Saturday extra) and was formed 4-VEP/4-TC/33/1 driven from the VEP end which was the London end of the train - If I remember, it worked to somewhere like Basingstoke where it connected with a London bound service off the Exeter.

 

Very interesting.  Perhaps a vital clue to the question posed in my previous post regarding what the 4-TC or 8-TC /33/1 off the 06:5x Salisbury - Basingstoke did next on a Saturday.

On 14/07/2010 at 22:58, robertcwp said:

Looking at the 10 July 1967 Waterloo carriage workings, ......

 

There was an 1800 1/2 formed 4 TC, 3 TC (Salisbury), 4 TC, EDL (Basingstoke).

 

A bit more from the carriage workings, this time Summer 1969 Mon-Fri.

 

1810 Waterloo-Salisbury was DL, 8TC.

I've become intrigued by this train and balancing 06xx from Salisbury from c1967 until 1980.  These comments suggest dividing of the 'Down' at Basingstoke didn't last long and the DL, 8TC  arrangement continued throughout the 1970s 

Until at least 1973 the 'Up' was advertised as terminating at Basingstoke.

A fascinating comment on p.246 of the July 1974 Railway Observer says "An interesting formation is, however, the 07.28 (SX) Southampton-Waterloo which from Basingstoke consists of a Class 33/1, 4TC and 4-VEP".  A comment elsewhere says "In 1974 the 0653 Salisbury-Waterloo 33/1+4TC stood in the Up Slow platform at Basingstoke waiting for the 0728 Southampton-Basingstoke 4Vep to attach."

From May 1977 the 'Up' was advertised as a through train to Waterloo departing 0657. Another comment elsewhere is that it then became "8TC+33/1 to Basingstoke where it attached to a 4-Rep ex Barton Mill Sidings".  Yet another quote has it that this 4-Rep arrived as 2212 Bournemouth-Basingstoke the previous evening.

If though until May 1977 the UP was only 4-TC, what happened to the other 4-TC off the down?

On Saturdays the UP always terminated at Basingstoke.  What did the TC stock then do?  

Until October 1976 on Saturdays there was a 2210 Waterloo-Salisbury which was presumably DL, 8TC.  This was hauled stock subsequently. As the Sunday Reading - Portsmouth Harbour service went other to DL, 4TC operation then, it is presumed the TC stock was deployed on that. At the same time the Sunday 2159 Reading-Yeovil Junction went other to DL, 4TC.  

Found another interesting comment on p.173 5/73 RO in the Edinburgh notes. "On 12th March a " Trainex for Building" exhibition train was noted formed of M38744/7/9/36/46//5/1M, these vehicles having previously appeared in October 1972 as a "Wiggins Teape" exhibition train.

As more formations emerge I'm adding them to the RCTS website.  If anyone has any others please do post them.

There is a very interesting comment on p.402 11/72 RO in the Ipswich notes.  "5Z32 12.00 special exhibition train Leiston-Marylebone paused at Ipswich on 23rd September, hauled by 5699 (31B).  The four exhibition saloons, all painted white, were M99611/2, M38737/42M".  From Johnathan's list  perhaps the Crabtree Electrical or Ranx Xerox train. 

Worth mentioning that this is the only 1970's recorded use so far identified for these four vans.  M38737M & M38742M  were condemned the following year.

Probable that M99611/2 saw very little subsequent use as the only other sightings I have of them are at Derby in 1975 & 1976, not sure precisely where but probably Litchurch Lane Works, and Salisbury on various dates from November 1976 until March 1980.

On 07/06/2020 at 16:16, montyburns56 said:

Gillingham 1975

 

 

 

 

The Mark II could well be BFK 14094 which was reported in the formation in October 1975.   I would be interested to know if Mk III FO 11019 and Cinema Coach ZDB975403 were also in the train when it visited Gillingham? 

On 05/11/2021 at 11:04, Peter A Hall said:

...... where the Electrification Train  visited in the 1970s.  It does though the appear from earlier posts in this topic and references elsewhere that the train travelled widely and it was at both Transpo '73 and Locomotion '74., so far though I've not come across a picture or other conclusive evidence of it at at either.   Any sightings of the train in the early 1970s would be welcomed.

I have now come across  this picture taken at Locomotion '74.  In the background are what appears to be a Mark I and a Siphon G converted to Exhibtion vehicles.

The Siphon G is almost certainly one of DB975152 & DB975153 which supports the Electrification Exhibition Train being present.  The Mark I is very interesting as it has Rail 150 branding.  Is it one of DB975073 or DB975074 already so branded or perhaps a then very recently converted DB975403.  The latter was certainly in use with DB975073 & DB975074 as the Rail 150 Exhibition toured the country.

On 14/11/2021 at 16:35, corneliuslundie said:

That makes sense, Peter. Is that Marylebone? That was a favourite London venue.

Jonathan

The 1969 picture of the TRAINEX train I'm certain shows it in Platform 12 at Manchester Piccadilly.  This Platform no longer has track in it.

I have recollections of seeing other Exhibition Trains in Platform 12 in the mid/late 1970s.   If I recall correctly few passenger trains used that Platform with it being mainly used for stabling. Thus, ideal for Exhibition Trains as away from the normal nussle and bussle of the station. 

On 05/06/2020 at 13:36, montyburns56 said:

Trainex 1969

 

 

Jonathan specifically mentions this train in his article as the first Tranex train in July 1969, it being formed of six ex LMSR coaches with branding matching those shown in the photograph.  He then mentions a five coach train being run the following year.  The RCTS  have received a sighting of this train on 11th May 1970 formed 38744, 38746, 38747, 38748(identity tbc), 38749, 38745, a total of six, plus 259S added.  My suspicion is that the five refers to the five vans used for exhibition purposes and excludes the Club Car 38745, almost certainly the one furthest from the camera in the picture.  In 1971 Jonathan records the train as six vehicles.  My hunch is the same formation was used in all three years

I broached the possibly of the Rea carriages having previously seen exhibition use prior to purchase as a result of seeing the pictures up post of the Coal Utilisation Council exhibition train at Swindon in the early 1960s.  The vehicle closest to the photographer is  a 'Gresley' era brake so wondered perchance it was one that which was in the Rea train.  The other two carriages in that formation look to have been of LMS pedigree.

Until reading the articles I had never understood why, when in private ownership, the trio were prefixed MM, obviously Mobile Marketing, but why not RMM?   That would be more logical, especially as the Chipmans owned carriages were prefixed CWT.

Rea being based at Kensington Olympia would explain why vans were often to be found there.  Rea staff fitting them out as Trainex staff did at Wimborne / Salisbury. 

On 05/06/2020 at 14:07, corneliuslundie said:

There was another private operation, Rea Mobile Marketing, and Ron introduced me to the owner, who also gave me some photos. His trains were based on older stock, as shown below.

The two businesses were taken over by BR.

Kensington Olympia, where the Be Stiff Tour train is seen above, was a place where the trains were often photographed.

Jonathan

I would agree that the three LNER design carriages in the picture were once the Rea train.  However, the photo I'm sure was taken in the second half of the 1970s.  By then the three were numbered ZDB975399/400/401 and in use as 'the Safety train'.  This I believe toured the country and was used to assist in staff safety training.  As such it was not visited by the general public which would explain the BR departmental series numbering.

As Cornelius mentions, these were purchased from Rea by BR in 1974 and strangely took the next available numbers in the BR design Exhibition van series, 99626/27/28, rather than numbering them as LNER design vehicles.  Not of course unprecedented as  CCT(E) Car Carriers  96200/01/02/03 were similarly so numbered.   M99626/27/28 would not have been carried for long though as 975399/400/401 were also allocated in 1974.  Presumably though they did see use in public exhibition trains whilst in BR ownership in 1974.  Details and photographs of such use would be welcomed.

Whilst in Rea ownership they were numbered MM3021/22/23.  However, going further back did they see use with BR as exhibition vans in the 1960s or was their first use as such in Rea ownership? 

On 16/05/2021 at 18:58, montyburns56 said:

Royal Journey coach at Nottingham London Road Low Level 1953

 

 

My thoughts are that this pair are 6513 (ex 13244, ex L&Y 2389) & 6533 ( ex 12160, ex L&Y 604), see  LMSR/BR Exhibition Vans .

If I'm correct they they were presumbly  subsequently used throughout the 1950's & 1960's in exhibition train formations.  If I'm correct then other pictures surely exist but probably of the "also in the shot" variety rather than specifically of these.  Then in c1970 they were displaced by the first Mark I conversions.  However, although 6513 went for scrap, 6533 was substantially rebuilt and renumbered DB975154 for use in the Electrification Exhibition Train.

Any pictures or references to 6513 & 6533 in the 1950s & 1960s would be most welcome in proving or disproving my theory. 

On 02/11/2021 at 10:48, Tony Cane said:

Is the infromation here sufficient confirmation?

https://www.departmentals.com/departmental/975154

All sightings of DB975154 are post its preservation.   Thus, doesn't really help with where the Electrification Train  visited in the 1970s.  It does though the appear from earlier posts in this topic and references elsewhere that the train travelled widely and it was at both Transpo '73 and Locomotion '74., so far though I've not come across a picture or other conclusive evidence of it at at either.   Any sightings of the train in the early 1970s would be welcomed.

This paragraph from the article I found particularly interesting.
 

Quote

 

Also during this period occurred the most expensive single venture of all: the three year visit to

Eastern Europe by a five or six coach train (John Cocking lists six coaches as used but describes five and other evidence is contradictory). This travelled some 7000 miles in the first year and a half, visiting some 60 towns in Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Italy and Austria. A planned visit to Russia did not come off – in any case bogie changing might have posed some headaches on stock not designed for it.

 

Until I started compiling the RCTS feature I had it in my mind that 99621-99625 were the 'continental set' and had spent a long period abroad.  If the August 1974 Carnforth reference to these is dismissed (see below) my suspicion is that it was these that were abroad for three years. Possibly from conversion in 1973 to late 1976 when they are first recorded at Salisbury.  I have a recollection of a magazine reference to them returning published during the winter of 1976/77 which caused a lot of excitment among local carriage spotters as at the time no one had seen them.

I did visit the Locomotion '74 Exhibition at Carnforth in August 1974 but did not record the Exhibition carriages present.   If any one did that would be very helpful.  The brochure does though say the three coach ehibition visited by H. M. The Queen on 7th May 1974 was present.  I'm presuming this was DB975152-4.  Also, that the Corporate Image Exhibition Train that had visited most countries in Europe would be present.  Initially I thought that referred to M99621-5 but having closely looked at the photographs taken at Transpo '73 now suspect it was DW150353+DB975073+DB975074.  The brochure also mentions a Cinme Coach but that could have been part of the latter formation.    

Does anyone know for sure whether a similar train was used for the  1977 Stiff tour? 

I certainly recall seeing the 1978 train, probably at Bournemouth as I was at the gig.  I f I remember correctly Bournemouth Village was below a car park or was it a bowling alley?

These two articles are fascinating.  Very many thanks for making them available.  Please bear with me for a few days whilst I cross reference with the information I have compiled.   It will now be possible to match the observations with the train details and know by painted number which carriages were actually in the formations.  

17 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I assume that your colleagues have seen the two articles I published in the HMRS Journal on exhibition trains of that period. Volume 19, 2006, page 71 and volume 20, 2009, page 58.

Jonathan

Personally I have not seen these two articles but others have mentioned them.  In another group where they have been mentioned I asked whether they detailed formations and storage locations or were focused on the vehicles themselves, design, modification and similar yet so far no one has responded.

Are the articles available on line?

On 06/06/2020 at 17:04, montyburns56 said:

Salford Docks 1970 DB975073

 

 

 

 

 

 

Recently in the Carriage Conundrums feature on the RCTS website we have added Exhibition Train Formations - 1970s where we are trying to  compile a listing of the various Exhibition Train formations of that decade.  Only just come across this very interesting topic and as I read through I will post where I can add more.

For starters, these two pictures are extremely interesting.  I'm as sure as I can be that these pictures were taken in May 1973 on Number 6 Dock.  During that month the Transpo '73 Exhibition was held there,  This has been mentioned in the Trains in Trafford Park topic.  A visiter records the three vehicles pictured as present (DB975073, DB975074, DW150353) and a magazine report says that three-coach exhibition trains featuring respectively "Electrification" and the "Great British Investment" were present.  I have also seen pictures of DB975073 & DB975074 being shunted prior to the event which match with these pictures.

The three-coach "Electrification train is likely to have been that formed of DB975152, DB075153, DB975154 but as yet I have not found any photographs or notes to confirm that. 

Only just became aware of this very interesting topic.  Something I have been putting together, but not very rapidly  is a listing of Holiday Preview / Excursions originating in the Sheffield Division (excluding the regular Skegness / Scarborough etc).

One that you might find of particular interest was on 11th May 1974.  This was 06:20 Barnsley - Hastings, 17:34 return.  47046  was used Barnsley - Ashford - Barnsley and 33210 Ashford - Hastings - Ashford.     

On 18/06/2021 at 12:28, D.Platt said:

A little late finding this thread, I joined the NCTS in 1978 , was Dave from Barnoldswick ? working for Rolls Royce if I remember correctly, the other main lad was John Wade , happy days ,when we joined the coach off the M66 at Bury the first thought was “is this coach going to complete the journey “ which for the 1979 Grand Scottish tour it didn’t.

Lots of memories of creeping round places like Hoo Junction in the middle of the night , and the daftest was crossing the four tracks trying to bunk Gateshead from the rear of the depot.

 My brother George sadly passed away years ago but Raymond Smith is still going strong, the three of us were usually together.

I will now read the links to the NCTS

Dave Felton as far as I'm aware lived in and around Bury in BWRE ane early NCTS days.    Latterly I understand he livede in or around Darwen.  As Dennis remembers, it was indeed Allan from Barnoldswick along with John who were the main lads on coach excursions when he was a member.

Dennis, could you email me at the Archivist email address on the NCTS website.  I would very much like to include some of your comments, memories etc on the website and also swap notes.

Sad news I'm afraid for those who were members of Buckley Well Railway Enthusiasts, Northern Counties Transport Society and Bahamas Locomotive Society in the 1960's and early 1970's.

After a long illness Dave Felton passed away on Monday at the care home where he had latterly resided. If it hadn't been for Dave the Buckley Wells Railway Enthusiasts would never have existed. His recollections of the Society can be read at https://www.northerncountiestransportsociety.com/bwre

As well as his railway interests Dave was very much a part of the bus scene in and around Manchester / Lancashire both as an enthusiast and in the 1970's proffesionally.

Some of what has been mentioned on here is now covered in Penistone' passenger train highlights penistones-passenger-train-highlights on the RCTS website. 

Further to my earlier comments about the history of the Northern Counties Transport Society and Buckley Wells Railway Enthusiasts much of what has been mentioned is included on a recently launched nostalgic Northern Counties Transport Society  website   northerncountiestransportsociety