vonmarshall

Not post-war but I also have a photo of the streamlined King c1939 which was mentioned above...

6014, M10, H46 (rebuilt Saloon with kitchen), G60 (Saloon), H45 (rebuilt Saloon with kitchen), H49, H39, E109, C44, D82.

You should definitely look out for Model Rail Journal, especially number 217 and 248 - the Kingstorre layout is set post war and covers some lovely Super Saloons - I remember being quite taken in by a photo with a 70' parcel van, Siphon G, 3 Saloons (the middle one having a kitchen) followed by another Siphon and a K38 or K40. According to the author it was quite prototypical but I do not know if he had hard evidence of that formation.

Good grief - cannot believe it was 2012 when I first started this thread!

Anyway I have been back in build mode and research mode and I came across a rather interesting segment in one of my books that had something called "The Log of the first Special Train from Plymouth to Paddington with passengers from the "Normandie" June 1935.

As can be seen there are 4 of the Ocean Saloons (all pre-modified) with a stowage van leading, a kitchen car, which I assume was from the Riviera stock or maybe a converted single unit from the articulated coaches, and a Brake 1st bringing up the rear. As far as I know, the brake firsts were made for the Fishguard boat trains so would have been 70 footers.

I would love to know whether there are any more logs like this out there! 

Just following up on this for anybody interested...

In my Post Office GWr book which has an extensive chapter on the Ocean Mails, there is a photo of an M15 taken in 1937 still in full lined livery.

And then on HMRS there are 3 photos of interest...

An M15 taken in 1929 in the lined livery

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/70-apos-12wheel-ocean-mails-stowage-van-gw-1206-diag-m15-at-plymouth-millbay-side-built-10-1910-lot-1185.html

An M9 taken in 1935 in the 29-34 livery

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/70-apos-ocean-mails-stowage-van-gw-824-d-m9-at-plymouth-millbay-side-one-pair-of-doors-open-corner-of-dock-foreground-shed-background.html

A K38 taken in 1935 in the 1929-34 livery

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/57-apos-ocean-mails-brake-van-gw-1169-d-k38-at-plymouth-millbay-side-corner-of-dock-foreground.html

So in summary, a 1935 Ocean Mails train with either M9 or K38 was 100% prototypically painted in the simple livery, but at least one of the M15's were not repainted from lined as late as 1937.

You have to love the GWR!

4 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

If you mean diagram M15, these first appeared in lined brown livery. Here's one in 1947, in brown and cream. 

 

 

I think I did mean the M15. I have a book on the GWR Post Offices and it shows an M15 at the harbour being loaded in 1937 and it is in fully lined livery.

Thanks for the link to the K38 thread.

Hello all I have a couple of new questions regarding repainting, particularly of the Ocean Mails 70' stock, the Ocean Mails K38s and the Articulated Dining Cars.

I have photos of the 70' Ocean Mails coaches that purport to be taken in 1937 and they are still in full lined livery. they were originally crimson when built in the early 1900's so it makes sense they received the lined livery some time in the late 10's early 20's but then seem to have been unpainted for 10+ years if they are still lined in '37.

I also have plenty of photos of the K38 Ocean Mails vans in 1925 lined livery or in post 1947 livery, but nothing in between.

And finally I have plenty of photos of the Articulated dining cars in fully lined livery or in 1935 shirtbutton (the photos are dated 1936), but again nothing in between. No 1932 (7 years after they were built) pictures at all.

I cannot find any photos of any of the parcel vans or articulated stock in 1929-34 livery. 

So my question regards special trains around 1935, the period I model and the trains I am interested in.

From my research it would appear that in 1936 I should have a rather eclectic mix of liveries if I am modelling Ocean Mails and / or Ocean Liner expresses with lined livery on the Ocean Mails vans, lined livery or Shirtbutton on the Dining car triplets, and the 1929-34 livery on some of the other coaches. 

What do you all think? 

Thanks all for your thoughts.

I do not have Bradshaw, it sounds like it may be worth tracking down.

Can you let me know what the Paddington trains are that took that route and I can compare to my 1931 Formations book to see what they were made up of.

Hello all

I love to model full length trains that are prototypical in length and coach types used and most of my models are designed to run in the garden on a line I am building that represents the sea wall around Dawlish.

I focus on the express services that ran from Penzance / Plymouth through to Paddington but also the cross country services which went north to Crewe and carried a mix of LMS coaches.

Making heavy use of "Train Formations & Carriage Workings of the GWR" which details the 1931/32 timetable, I have embarked on creating quite a few prototypical formations, all of which would have been seen along the sea wall in the early 30's,

But I have just got clearance from my wife to build a decent sized shed which will act as a fiddle yard but also may have the space to have a long thin scenic area and I have always loved the vibe from Sydney Gardens.

And this is where I get confused. 

Looking at the current map (attached) showing the train lines from Swindon to Bristol, the 2 different routes are clearly shown and today, as in the 30's I assume, the route to the north of Bath is a bit faster. I am assuming therefore that the main express trains to Paddington and also the trains heading North to Crewe and beyond, all travelled upwards and not via Bath and Sydney Gardens. 

I am prepared to use some artistic licence and propose to running my trains on a day when the Northern line was undergoing work and all the trains were diverted via Bath, but if I could find something more concrete I would be delighted.

Is this 

If anybody can help or point me in the right direction to do more research I would appreciate it.

Many thanks

Hello all

I am normally to be found lurking in the GWR forum but having moved house recently to a Southern Railway region have started to pay a lot more attention to the trains that ran near my home many years ago.

One of my favourite trains I have modelled is the GWR 1929 Torbay Pullman with the white Pullman livery and this fits in with my preference for modelling trains I wish I could have travelled on. 

One of the reasons I like the GWR is the Ocean specials and obviously Southern had its fair share of them too. 

I have discovered that the earlier Golden Arrow trains and the 1929/30 Ocean specials would often have had both Maunsell stock and Pullmans and I think I would like to model one of these.

I am however finding it hard to get a clear answer on one question...

Was the Olive paint / livery on the coaches of this era the same as the one used on the Lord Nelson and King Arthur locomotives? 

any help would be most appreciated.

Many thanks 

I am working on a single O gauge line around my garden and having been lucky enough to take the Orient Express back from Venice at the end of my honeymoon, I really want to reproduce it in 1/43.

I don't think I can affors a full rake of Elettren coaches, but see that MTH made some rather nice 5 car sets.

#20-60004-2 is the main 2-rail 5-car set and then #20-60023 is the add on set.

If by any chance anybody has either of these they are willing to part with, please do get in touch.

 

FWIW, here's what I say on gwr.org.uk:

 

"From 1922 onward, with the re-introduction of the brown and cream body colours, it seems less varnishing was applied, and the repainting interval dropped to approximately 7 years, and the pace of repainting seems to have accelerated during the mid- to late-1920s."

 

The qualification in the last part of that sentence tries to reflect the fact that crimson stuff seems to have disappeared by 1928, and fully-lined (1922-7) stuff seems to be rare by 1930.

 

Those pics you've seen of 1922/3 70' stock refurbed in 1931 would tie in with such a repaint window. The first repaints of the 1929 stock however are more likely to place them in single-waist-lining shirtbutton era.

 

What remains somewhat confusing is which stock qualified for double-waist lining ("the best express stock") and which remained in single-waist lining ("crosscountry and local carriages").

 The 1933 autotrailers were presumably regarded as a bit 'special', and received double-waist lining.

 

I'm in the dark about roof repaints. I would guess they got redone when sides were repainted.

 

 

That is very helpful. A 7 year cycle makes sense unless there was a major change (crimson to lined or lined to simple).

 

Assuming that is the case, I therefore need to model the 1929 CRE stock as rolled out because it would not have been repainted by 1933. The roofs would also not be very white at all by now!

 

I did see a rather nice photo of the 1925 articulated stock repainted in 1935/6 with the shirt-button. Given the above info, I think it would therefore be fair to assume that these coaches were painted in the simpler livery around 1930 and then the crest was swapped out for the shirt button in 1935/6. Of note, the roofs of the newly painted 10 year old coaches are immaculate white so I think it fair to assume that the 1930 repaint would have been white too. 

I have read all of the coach books I can find, especially Harris and Russell, but am struggling to find an answer to a reasonably simple question I have.

I am in the process of building rakes of coaches to represent the Britannia Halt end of the Kingwear line in 1933/34. I have always enjoyed the variety of stock in a GWR rake and am trying to capture the feel of a top line express in this era.

By now, the mainline coach livery incorporated double lining below the windows and the crest. 

Now as far as I am aware, 1929 marked the start of the newer, simple livery, and the 1929 Cornish Riviera / Torbay Limited stock was the first stock to receive it. At the outset, the livery did not include the double lining. This was phased in soon after (I still do not know the exact date but have found photos of old 70' coaches that were refurbished in 1931 with it).

Given my time period (33/34), what I am trying to work out is whether the 1929 stock would have been overhauled within 4-5 years and if so, would the double lining now be on these coaches? 

If anybody know how frequently mainline stock would have been given a fresh paint job, that would be amazing to know. I would also love to know whether roofs were repainted frequently too. I am guessing that 5 year old roofs would be very dark by now, but if they were given an overhaul after 4-5 years, then maybe I should have a few coaches with white roofs.

I look forward to hearing anything about re-painting, re-lining etc in this era.

They look really good! Cannot wait to see how you are painting the teak effect on.

Also are there any plans for restaurant cars? A dining triplet and a full brake for a Flying Scotsman rake would be rather compelling.

Really interested in these new releases, particularly the coaches. Are there any actual photos yet or are we still only able to see CAD representations. It will be interesting to see how the teak effect is handled.

All going swimmingly so far, I really like the pre shading...not sure if it shows up well in the pics?

 

20170827_132547.jpg

 

20170827_132537.jpg

Preshading looks perfect. Very subtle but will add real depth to the finished product.

My first post here Phil but had to comment. I have enjoyed your threads and your videos on youtube over the years and am inspired by your work both as a modeller and a gardener!

I am in the process of building up a collection of GWR 1930's stock to run in my garden and have taken a lot of ideas from you on how to integrate a line.

I never really liked diesels until I saw some of your work and now have a hankering for a Warship and a maroon Western so I can slip from the 30's to the 60's now and again.

Please keep it going!

Hi David

Very pleased to see the Gladiator range still being developed and offered.

Quick question for you - are there any plans to offer some of the coach kits? In particular I am interested in the Super Saloons in pre-facelift / kitchen style and would buy 3-5 of them.

Thanks

Thanks Fatadder I will have a look around.

It does seem to be very hard to find good info on the late 20's but not impossible.

You are in an interesting period of transition from clerestory/paneled stock to steel sided stock with a mix in formations. the first steel sided stock arriving in 1929 with deliveries continuing to 1934, with clerestories kept as spares for some time

 

Mike Wiltshire

I am indeed and that may be ome reason why I like it so much!

I have the details for both TPOs that operated on the south Devon mainline in 47 and intend to model both, once the diagrams are available. Woosly Works comes to mind as a possible source.

As a matter of interest can you tell us where you got the details? I am trying to recreate the Devon mainline in the 1928-33 era and would like to find the relevant info. Thanks

I have really enjoyed reading this thread and love the work you have done. How is the move going? Are you back in Blighty yet and have you worked out what you are going to do?

This is really stunning work. Please keep the photos coming.

I know very little about the Midland/S&D but the more I read the more I want to know. Can you tell me if there are any books or websites you particularly recommend? I am fascinated by what sort of locos and rolling stock you would have seen at Bath in the 1925-30 period.

I now realise there is nothing wrong with not finishing as I've often read about layouts being finished and then scrapped, only for the owner to start another. With ET each of the started layouts have been a learning curve for me and although layouts have come and gone, each one has given me a challenge and provided invaluable training for this wonderful hobby of ours. So I've stopped rushing through jobs with only the destination in view and enjoyed each day and each challenge that has arisen.

 

So what's happening now? Work slowed to a stop as the compromises I had made really didn't sit comfortably with me and the motivation drifted away.

 

Life goes full circle. I'm 'taking part' in RMWeb and not worried about finishing as the journey along the way is great fun. It has it's ups and downs, but after all, 'it's still modelling Jim, but not as we know it'.....

When I read this post Gordon it hit home with me. I am a serial starter of projects but can often rework them or over-engineer them and I have learnt to accept and now enjoy that facet of myself. I consider letting your inner perfectionist loose on a hobby far healthier than letting it loose on your job or familly.

Really looking forward so seeing what you do next. Part of me was wondering whether they may even be a huge change on the way. Maybe a step up to O gauge, or a step down out of the loft and into the garage and maybe even the garden beyond, or even a step back in time to the 30's with LNER green and rakes of Teaks gracing your elegant trackwork.

Regardless of where you go with this, your planning skills, carpentry talent, track building prowess and more recent kit building excellence suggest that it will be worth watching. I have my popcorn ready!

I have just stumbled across this post and "lost" the first 2 hours of my day reading through from the beginning.

This is a a masterpiece and I will follow it very closely.

Better go and do some work now. Thanks very much for sharing and inspiring!

Right, back home now and I can dig out the files.

 

The H20 is a kitchen/buffet brake. Hayes produce a kit still available.

 

In my opinion the best published shot is in Great Western in the 1930's volume 2 no 240

 

Formation is 6014, M10, H46, G60, H45, H49, H39, E109, C44, D82.

 

The Great Westernn Journal is issue 64 for the Torquay Pullman. There is a useful online index if you are looking for other information.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Many thanks Mike.

I am pretty sure there is a decent photo of H20 in one of the Pictorial Record books by Russell but I my copy is inb storage right now. I shall try to find a scan of the photo somewhere.

The formation you give is for a mid 30's train if I am not mistaken. I am primarily interested in the 1929-30 period when the Pullmans ran and the Ocean traffic was at its peak and the old lined livery was still in much evidence. I am really struggling to find info and photos of this period though that show the more exotic mainline traffic.

I have ordered issue 64 of the Journal... thanks for the heads up.

Only then did the G W develop the "Ocean Mails Specials" that we all are familiar with and which the the O P is seeking to recreate.

 

It will be obvious from this that the boat trains were mail trains with passenger accommodation rather than passenger trains which carried mail.

 

I hope this helps clear up any misunderstandings.

Very interesting insight and many thanks. Just to clarify, are you suggesting that an Ocean Mails train would have had one (or even several) Ocean Mails carriages GWR Brakes and then some passenger stock added?

Moving onto the Torquay Pullman, my copy of Pullman Profile Vol 3 by Anthony Ford covering the K Class Steel Cars arrived yesterday and contained some intersting info.

According to Mr Ford, the GWR was issued with 12 1st class cars and 7 3rd class. All of the 3rd class cars were all from earlier stock that has started its life on the GER/LNER and included the 12-wheel cars #40 and 41 which had been converted to 3rd Brake Parlours in 1924.

Here is a quick potted history of the cars as I understand it right now...

Cars number 40 and 41 were 12-wheeled coaches that started life on the GER and were converted to Third Brake Parlours in 1924. They were moved to the GWR in 1929 and formed the ends of the Torquay Pullman.

Cars number 34,35,59,60 and 61 has similar histories but were not converted.

The following 1st class cars were also issued...

Arcadia which was a wooden pannel 12 wheel car converted to 1st Brake Parlour in 1924 and was primarily for Ocean traffic

Aurelia which was a wooden car but I cannot remember if it was a 12 wheeler or early K type

Rainbow which was like Aurelia

Then came the 1928 built steel K class cars which went straight to the GWR

Ione

Zena

Joan

Juana

Eunice

Evadne

Lorraine

Lucille

Ursula

He goes on to claim that the "Torquay service included at most two of the new [steel] first-class cars, Ione and Zena, but the emphasis was on third-class accomodation with seven were made available"

From this we can gather that the normal 8 coach 1929 Torquay formation was #40 Third Brake followed by Ione, Zena and 4 of the 5 remaining standard 3rd cars followed up again with #41.

What stood out to me was how many other 1st class cars there were which by default must have been run in the special Ocean traffic. That is a lot of expensive Pullmans to be hanging around!

I am really interested in the possible formations of these trains. It stands to reason that the Mail trains that RAWatson mentions above may well have had a few Pullmans attached but I cannot find any photographic evidence to back this up.

What thoughts do you all have regarding the use of Arcadia, Aurelia, Rainbow, Joan, Juana, Eunice, Evadne, Lorraine, Lucille and Ursula?

As far as Kitchen facilities for Ocean specials there was a one off 70ft to diagarm H20 that specifically built for these trains. Later on two of the G60/1 super saloons were rebuilt with kitchens to Diagram H44/5, providing the catering facilities. As for mails often marshalledi n the train were the 70ft vehicles with sliding doors (M15 from memory -not at home at the moment). Several shots in the Soole collection books showing G60/1,H44/5 and one or two M15 vans usually at the London end.

 

The Torquay Pullman was covered in both Great Western Journal and the Great Western Study Group 'Pannier' magazines recently with full details of names/sets/ 4or 6 wheel bogies etc. When I get home I'll post the exact issue dates. Note the Pullman cars were also used on Ocean Liner specials in the brief 1929/30 period spent on the Western.The carriages were not actually owned by the GWR but hired from Pullman. This resulted in alterations to formations as the sets when Pullman saw fit, I understand, to the annoyance of the GWR who had pre booked seats to find the coach layout did not always match.

 

 

Edit

 

Just spoken to a friend this morning who has a shot with the H39 Diner first in the formation- Super saloons with later sliding windows H39 as built top openers. The H39 was built to run as a pair with H40 third diner, but the H39 could be found with others when all first stock was required. M15 vans again.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Hi Mike

Thanks for the info. I will have a look for H20 tonight when I get home. Do you know if it was a Kitchen / First or even the Kitchen / First / Brake I mentioned earlier?

Re the Great Western Journal feature on the Torquay Pullman, I would be very grateful if you could tell me which issue that is.

Also would love to see the photo of the Supers with the H39. Any chance you can link to it or tell us where to find it.

Many thanks

Noel

There were effectively no 'normal' K38s. There were only six of them and all but one had Ocean Mails branding.

 

For a kitchen, they probably would have used an available dining car, possibly a Dreadnought or one of the 70' toplight cars, although the instructions with the Comet kits suggest just 3 or 5 Super Saloons and 2 passenger brake vans for the formation.

 

If you want to add a dining car, an H15 might be a possibility (Comet W2).

 

Note that the Fishgaurd boat train formation (toplights) didn't have a restaurant as far as I recall, it was a 70' brake first (A11), a number of 70' firsts (A10), and a 70' stowage van.

 

For the Torquay Pullman, see http://www.precision...ls.com/l20.html, although the photos in Russell show a much less homogeneous formation than is implied by this information. From the Precision Labels list, the cars included Eunice, Juana, Zena, Ione, Joan, Loraine, and Evadne (this matches the link industrial provided).

 

Adrian

Hi Adrian

Many thanks for the links.

I thought only 3 of the 6 K38s had OM lettering but may well have mis-remembered from reading my Russel books. From all of the research I have done so far, the OMs were included when needed so it stands to logic (or at least my logic) that if a liner with 1st class passengers arrived to be whisked away in their Super Saloons, it is not inconceivable the fast-mail would have been attached too. I guess it is one of those things we will never actually know now.

Re the Comet instructions, I believe they relate to post-1934 when 2 of the Supers were converted to have their own kitchens, Princess Royal and Princess Elizabeth if I remember correctly. I think H15 is a good bet although I do remember seeing a 1st/Kitchen/Brake which I believe was H11 (or was this actuall H15, my memory fails me).

Thanks for the link Industrial... I lknew I had seen a list like that somwhere. Very useful!