GWR_Modeller

Hi,

The older map shows the railway on a embankment and also slightly further NW another change in ground level, in between was the course of the old river, perhaps now a seasonally or ocassionally flooded area used for pasture?  A parcel boundary line runs along the bank and all the buildings/pens are on the higher ground.

On the newer map the railway embankment is not shown and the photo shows ground levels which imply the land has probably been infilled at least in part.  A remnant of the old property boundary can be seen at the north east end at right angles to the UD Bdy and also at the corner of the margarine factory.

Imagining a line between the two suggests any remnants of the old building/pens are too far away from the railway to be the wall in the photo.

I find the side by side feature of NLS are very useful, although in this case they do not offer the newer map you have used and their newer maps of this area are smaller scale.  Also unfortunately Britain from above has views of the lard factory but facing in the wrong direction.

Regards,Paul

PS very nice modelling.

Hi.

I was interested by the idea of Torquay gas works being serviced by 40t wagons so I did a image search and came up with this one on Britain from above.

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW007605

The gas works siding appears to have a wagon tipper and there is actually a wagon on its side in the tipper.  End tipping wagons had a door which the load slid through but with side tipping presumably the wagon would have to be tipped more than 90 degrees, is that right?

The photo is dated 1947 and the buildings are still covered in camouflage paint.  A good and clear example of this practice which I have not seen so clearly before.

P

The r/n and design means it represents a 1937-38 built goods fruit van.  I read somewhere this design was used for channel island tomato traffic which explains the 'Return to Weymouth Quay' marking.  The XP mark was introduced late 1938.

I think you are right. 

           G     MATCH TRUCK    W

1A               To carry ? Tons              Tare tt cc

Hi,

The larger GWR cranes, 36T and 45T were also accompanied by another wagon, with wooden drop sides.  Atkins refers to this as a 'weight tender'.  I have found three pictures in JH Russell GWWA figs 317, 318 and 321 of the 36T cranes with these wagons.  The markings on those wagons were 'G Match Truck W'.  There was another line below the words 'Match Truck'.  I can not make them out, can anybody tell me what there were?

Thanks.

Try Winsor & Newton inks.  There is a sunshine yellow or an orange.  I have used them as washes over all sorts of other paints varnishes etc.  I suppose they might bead on an LED case. 

Okay.  My knowledge of the markings came from the 'Goods and not so goods' website.

https://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/6-livy/odds/9-poliv.htm

I have not come across an explanation of the yellow star/black square marking elsewhere.

Paul

Hi.

I understand that during the inter-war period private owner coal wagons could be marked with several symbols.

One was the yellow and black cc symbol meaning, I believe, "commuted charge";

Second there was a yellow star, black square symbol referring, I believe, to a pool arrangement.

Mostly these are on the bottom left of the wagon though some are elsewhere.

Is anybody able to describe how these arrangements worked and when?  Looking at photographs of loaded coal trains there are often groups of wagons from the same source together so it seems to me the pooling arrangement was not as open as the wartime pool.

Thanks, Paul

3 hours ago, AndyID said:

 

Alas, no

 

As some wheels lose contact other wheels have to support more weight and that increases their ability to transmit force without slipping. The ability to transmit force without slip depends only on the total weight supported by the wheels in contact with 

 

Traction depends on friction and a gent called Amontons figured all of this out around 300 years ago.

 

His Laws of Friction:

 

The force of friction is directly proportional to the applied load.

The force of friction is independent of the apparent area of contact.

 

As far as I'm aware nobody has been able to disprove his laws.

 

 

Are these true is a non ideal situation or does the real world get in the way.  Steel track and steel tyres presumably deform very little but in the movies the way to get a good wheel spin in a car chase is to lower the tyre pressure, the total weight of  the car does not change but the area of tyre contact does and it slips more easily, what causes this?

What about braking - do the same principles apply? Were bogies and tenders braked and how did this improve stopping? 

Well you have to remember that US, metric, Imperial and Great Western sizes are all different so 6' by 6' in WSG is big enough by any other measure.

I think I asked a similar question a few years ago and was told they were denim ie cotton.  But from the way they hang I would say thinner than jean material.  Two piece not overalls and I know I have seen a picture of a bibbed set with a pale shirt and once a crew member with a tie, I do not know if it was posed.

http://www.gwsbristol.org/hothbuild.html

Try this site, they mention dimensions throughout and given references at the bottom.

P

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Pedantry: allow for the thickness of the piers! Ribblehead is to standard S&C dimensions so ordinary piers are 6 ft at the springing and strengthening 24 ft, so a 6-arch section is 324 ft. 

Interesting, I had assumed the measurement was between centres, now you mention it the term span is clearly not that, so is there a simple term centre pier to centre pier?

There are viaducts without refuges I presume these were either built before any requirement or were wide enough that no refuges were required.  I have looked at pictures on wikipedia and not found so far mention of width, sometimes only whether double or single track but wikipedia does mention spans.  Of the ones I have looked into more closely and considering most have only one visible side only the refuges are 120 ie 3 40' spans; 100' ie 2 50' spans apart; 200' ie 2 spans of 100' but staggered either side so 100'.  What I have not worked out is the position of the refuge on the other side of the first two. 

Of the ones you mention Harringworth is 40' spans so 120' and Ribblehead is 45' so 270'.  Ithink I have an answer, over 100' but not too much.

One change which seems to be fairly frequent is the replacement of a brick refuge protruding from the parapet with one with metal railings, I suspect this was a pragmatic repair for aging brickwork.  Looking again at the photo I mentioned in the first post there appears to have been a protruding support now unused and metal bars bridging the gap in the parapet, so a repair not an addition.

My 'back story' is a market town on a gwr double track secondary mainline, say OWW, or East or South of Gloucester (or Newbury Westbury maybe but I like heavy freight so maybe not) with a branch to West and a diverging mainline to East, so three thro platform faces and two bays.  The nominal period is late 1930s but that will be fudged a little because I admired the old strategic grain silo on the A34 and after I found standard plans for the dozen or  so that were built I made a card model, my first, and it will have find a spot.  That makes the line Victorian and the viaduct model I am butchering is brick and regular and maybe has a concrete cap on the plinth so I propose a turn of the century rebuild when the line was doubled.  How does that sound?  PS my model is little shorter than the Harringworth.

Hi,

I am building a model of a railway viaduct for a 1930s layout.  I would like to add the alcoves in the parapet which allowed workers to get out of the path of trains, I presume they have a specific name?  I have not found a diagram specifying the distance apart.  Can anybody tell me what was required?

I presume the regulations changed overtime and I have seen one picture, pre war, where the alcoves on a viaduct have been recently added or rebuilt evidenced by the different tone of brick and white mortar.  The alcoves in that case on each side were staggered.  Presumably the alcoves in tunnels and some narrow cuttings were spaced similarly to viaducts.

Regards, Paul

I bought a book Great Western Travelling Post Office jg hosegood wild swan.

There are some diagrams on the internet, I used google and searched for tpo, travelling post office nets or something like that and found

http://www.bpodmore.co.uk/projects/ground gear.htm

A video of Didcot  travelling post office operating is on you tube.

Some general diagrams at

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/coach_draw.htm

I do not think there is any disagreement about the advantage in being able to apply a vehicles hand brake from both sides.  But the explicit ruling against being able to release it from either side would in principle require there to be some disadvantage, or perceived disadvantage, in having that ability.

Being able to organise a workplace and tasks in such a way that there is no benefit in having a brake releaseable from both sides would remove the benefit of such a brake but is it not a significant step further to actually prohibit it?

It is interesting the exception made for DC brakes, the introduction of which seems to preceed the rules.  Might the disadvantage be that mechanical reliability of either side brakes was a concern and, in absence of a positive advantage as explained by The Stationmaster, that was the deciding factor in the prohibition?  

48 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

The question would logically be why on earth anyone would want to release a brake on a wagon on the opposite side from that on which it had been applied?  

 

Might it not be the case that in forming a train the wagons might be assembled over time and shunters working on different side would have applied brakes differently?  Or were yards so flat that the major purpose of hand brakes use was prior to descending inclines on running lines?

Dear All,

I have been reading around the subject of goods wagon brakes in the time period indicated by the title.

In the 1900s the BoT approved a rule which, in the end, required railway companys by 1938 to comply with a requirement that hand brakes on wagons must only be able to be taken off on the side on which they had been applied.

Can anyone explain to me why this requirement was made?  I understand the GWR had a problem in that the DC series of brakes could be taken off from either side and this is a reason they switched to building wagons with Morton hand brakes in the late 1920s.  The logic of right hand ends makes sense regarding, in terms of  commonality, but why the former?

Paul

Hi,

I have browsed my books and the internet for freight trains in London.  Almost every Southern train seems to have a number but I have yet to find a GWR one.

P

Hi,

Thanks for the suggestion.  I have read the suggested thread and followed a couple of links from those posts.  The target plate is described as white with black writing and seem to be a letter over numerals - in South Wales- and there is a list.  Reference is also made to shapes other than round.

I have also looked through some books regarding South Wales and now found several of these targets in colour photos.  The targets look to be 12" to 14" diameter.  The dates are firmly BR days rather than GWR, this latter being my area of interest.  In several the discs are yellow although I presume this is a consequence of reproduction rather than reality.  One seems to be stencil painted and the other free hand.

I have also found several photos where a similar code ie letter plus two numerals is chalked onto the smoke box door and alot more with the large frame mounted on the smokebox with train reporting numbers.  These are in both the letter plus two numbers format and a three number format.  I am aware of the GWR using three number codes to identify Summer passenger trains mid thirties onwards.

The threads focus on South Wales.  The timetable above refers to London and does not mention letter plus numerals only one or two numerals or a pair of letters.  It seems a less sophisticated code than used in wales.  And I have not seen photos.

Paul

Hi,

Attached below is a partial image of a GWR freight timetable for London from Tony Atkins Goods Train Working Vol2 pg 151.

The first column of the timetable lists a Target No.  The text does not refer to this timetable directly but several pages earlier refers to "Target Plates" which were carried on the front of "Control Engines" working from South Wales collieries to the docks, presumably it helped route the untimetabled traffic.  I have also seen a similar, but mostly empty, column in another timetable but cannot remember which.

I presume similar "Target Plates" must have been carried by engines in areas other than South Wales eg North London and if so does anybody have or can they point me towards a picture of one?  The target plate was carried on a headlamp bracket.  I cannot recollect seeing a picture of one.

I would like to thank Miss Prism for referring me to Tony Atkins excellent books on Goods Services and Goods Trains in an earlier thread.

Paul

Hi,

Whistle codes could include combinations of whistles, short whistles and crows.  What is a crow?

Paul  

16 hours ago, lapford34102 said:

Hi,

Pics mentioned above both early BR. Lamps on b'beam LH and centre from front. Did though find a pic of a 28XX with 30+ on being banked up Bincombe, lamps LH and top centre.

Vans a right mix though not easy to identify, BR style (irrelevant for you) GW vent and fruit, SR style from roof shape, LNER fruit. Did notice there seemed to be a lot of LMS style sliding door with roof vents. The caveat is this is BR days.

There's one shot in Gerry Beale's book on the Tramway showing a 43XX on a C class, lamps LH and top centre, hauling a Jersey Potatoes out of Weymouth in '35  with what looks to be a fully fitted with  4 tarp'ed opens in the line up. The vans look a pretty mongrel bunch but then I'm no expert.

The above may be of some use.

Stu

Hi, The GWSG site has pages of two 1938/1939 notices about specials from Weymouth Quay to transport Jersey new potatoes and French and Cornish brocolli.  The main points I took from these notice are:

- the special trains were Class c*, Class C and class D, where * is the funny spoked wheel symbol used to indicate no foreign grease or hair filled axle boxes.

- the notice specifically states pages 172, 173 and 174 of the general appendix are to be observed.

- it specifies how variuos trains are to be marshalled into vac and non vac parts for different destinations including Cardiff, Crewe London, all the big hubs.

- it mentions that trains with ten wagons less than the standard load can travel faster but not more than 45 mph.

- and intriguingly mentions wagons joining a meat train from the SW to Acton at Westbury.  It says if the wagon numbers on the train now exceeds 35 it must proceed as a partly fitted vacuum implying that it may have been fully fitted before hand.

The two lamp positions you mention in BR days are i) C and ii) D which are respectively i) "....composed entirely of vehicles conforming to coaching stock requirements" or "express freight..... piped fitted throughout with automatic brake operative on not less than half...." and ii) "express freight ....... partly fitted with automatic break operative on not less than a third.......".