ChrisG

The latest issue of Scalefour News (a members' only publication) contains a superb article by Andy Gannon about how he modelled a large batch of Island-based SECR coaches in 4mm scale using CAD and laser cutting. In passing it mentions that Markits now stock the "clipped" buffers (in brass and sprung) that were fitted on these coaches. The article describes some pretty remarkable model engineering (such as specially cast bogie weights, and a home made vacuum former for the roofs). The use of CAD and laser cutting is somewhat more attainable, however. They are beautiful models and all in all it is a most inspiring article.

Now, if you go to Scaleforum in Stoke Mandeville next weekend, this issue also serves as the show guide.

Chris

Alton

Hampshire 

Thanks for that. It doesn't look to be possible to do a conversion.

 

Regards

Somewhere else on RMWeb there is a thread detailing how to do an EM conversion... Coudln't tell you where it is though!

Chris

 

OK , I hope this review is helpful

Thank you, a most helpful review indeed. I found the sketch of how the chairs hold the rail most interesting and informative. Am I the only person who thinks the chairs just look "odd"?  

I can see clearly that DCC Concepts are breaking a few moulds with this product. As with most innovations time will tell as we hear from people who have used the product in anger. Such innovations can also shake up the market which isn't always good and certainly won't be if other good products fall by the wayside as a result. All eyes on Peco now for their product, and of course on the turnouts when they eventually come from both manufacturers, and which are surely what we REALLY wanted!

Chris Gardner

Alton

Hampshire

southeastern finecast produce a whitemetal kit of the O2 and their smokebox door might work in lieu of a spare.

I questioned Kernow about service, repairs, spare parts and longevity and got the feeling my question took them a bit by surprise. As someone buying my first RTR product in 20 years or so my worry about the smaller companies entering the fray was that they had no backup infrastructure like Hornby or Bachmann and we might all be spending a lot of money on products which could not be repaired or serviced and would quickly become obsolete. It was for example nigh on impossible to work out how to get inside one of these models and the reply was more or less along the lines of "why on earth would you want to?". Lo and behold, there are no spares! I understand the reasons, but it's a very poor show! The best Kernow could offer was "send it back to us for assessment". Gone are the days of Hornby Dublo and Triang who took this sort of thing seriously and provided a backup service.

Chris

Is it me or the photo, but the rail seems not to be sitting in the chairs properly as there seems to be a gap on the bottom inside of both chairs ?

Gosh - the slope really does look odd!  Is it really right?

Martyn - I'm sure you are right about the return on investment. It certainly makes sense. Meanwhile we have potentially a watering down of the profit to be made by each of the manufacturers, whilst the modeller doesn't have what he/she really wanted in the first place. That's business I guess!

Like you I am left wondering whether the reduced gauge was intentional!

Chris

Hi Chris,

 

My guess is that the cost of getting the rail section rolled is a significant investment, with a large minimum order, and you get a return on that much sooner selling boxes of flexible track than pointwork.

 

In addition, there are differences:

 

The Peco track has vertical rails for easier sharp curving (and insert-moulding) and with a modified rail section for use with conventional rail joiners and connection to their Code75 flat-bottom range. Closer to a mass-market product.

 

The DCC Concepts track has stainless steel rail, and a reduced track gauge more suitable for use with 00-SF (4-SF). Whether this is by design, or because of the pronounced inclined rail isn't clear.

 

SMP Scaleway has thin sleepers and underscale rail width. It has been on the market for over 40 years and a remarkable survivor.

 

C&L flexible has thick sleepers for deep ballasting with exposed sleeper ends where wanted for sidings. Also inclined rail, but hardly noticeable.

 

Whether there is sufficient market to support all four is moot. Almost certainly not until some RTR pointwork arrives, and then the one which matches it will win.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

In a few week time, I will be making a start on an Isle of Wight layout, using this track. For points, I will be using SMP plastic point bases with Legacy rail as space requires me to use 3ft radius.

Hooray - the World needs more Isle of Wight layouts! Which part of the network are you tackling? 

Chris

In that I have already purchased material to meet my track building requirements for the foreseeable future, I am literally disinterested in this development. Nevertheless, I am curious as to why two manufacturers have announced (and now one has produced) flexible steam-era bullhead plain track when that corner of the market was already satisfied, and the market for compatible ready made pointwork is wide open, and I imagine something of a crying need which is preventing many people from taking the plunge with finer track. 

I can well understand there is probably an enormous difference in the initial investment required to launch plain track versus turnouts, but nevertheless a couple of standard-ish turnouts and a diamond might have been a better starting point?

Chris Gardner

Alton

Post script. I have just asked Allen at Worsley Works to make up etches for SECR comps. I sent him some artwork and he has agreed to make some, some part panelled some unpanelled! At least you will not have to cutvand shut so much. He has said a full body kit ,sides and ends and roof will be £45 and available in about 3 weeks?

It is possible he has been working on them for some time as I sent him some drawings a few months ago. These were the ones in the Maycock and Reed book on IOW carriages, and the kits will  therefore copy the panelled/non-panelled pattern from those drawings. When I last corresponded with Allen he said he needed to experiment with replicating the rivetting on the panelled sections.   I hope you specified 4mm scale, as he usually works in 3mm scale!

Chris

You are correct the use of Graham Farish Suburbans is that it gives tge right shape for the tumblehome and a good sruface to bond the bottom of the etch sides to and gives a nice straight edge. The roxey kits are for the 60ft coach not the 54ft and require so much cutting about you could not build the kit afterwards, hence the need for a former to build on. There is a big difference with the width issue. I used to just use the graham farish coaches at first. Then I boughtva Roxey LBSCR 3rd and you can see the width difference when in a train with Farish coaches. The look is similar to a tadpole unit. Hence why I started to chop mine. When I found out the only way to build a decent SECR comp was going to need to be kitbashed then its only logical to do the same.

I keep my Roxey kits separate from the Ratio/Grafar based ones for that very reason!    Although of course the difference in profile between LBSCR and SECR coaches is one of the distinctive features of IOW trains in BR days.

There was a kit for the brake van used in the earlier weed killing train. It was an ex MR van the IWR used if your doing SR.

 

The IWR water tanks were very unusuall in profile!!! And had several chassis over the years.

 

For the odd shaped one, please do not laugh but due to the wierd profile, the only think close was a sweetex sweetner dispenser which I cut into sections!!!!! It is slighty tapered too so I had to sort that. But by cutting ito into quarters for the top, then the bottom tapered bit was sectioned into quarters again. The chassis I used an IWR chassis from Smallbrook Studios I think. For the private owner Royal daylight wagons on the Island I modified a mainland tank wagon. I think the tank wagons and Isle of Wight cranes have taken the longest and are the hardest to build. The next hardest are the SECR composites!!!

I shall have a look at Sweetex next time in the supermarket! Meanwhile, can you explain the advantage of using the GF coaches as a basis for SECR ones rather than just using the the Roxey bits - is it that it makes easier if you have a foundation on which to stick the chopped up bits?

I must say the out of gauge width has never bothered me. The couple of SECR based coaches I have modelled are based on the Grafar suburbans with compartments chopped out to make them shorter. I struggle to get the correct roof shape however. My best approach has been using aluminium BR Mk1 roofs pressed a bit flat!

Chris

If you want to know about what wagons to use or what kit to use just post on here. I have built all the type of wagons with exception to the metal LBSCR ballast wagons and the boiler wagon. But its on my list next!

Would be interested to see the tanks on the weed-killing train, and a description of how you built them.

Chris

I have spent a couple of days installing Peco Smartswitches to control handbuilt signals on my layout. So far I have very little to show for my effort. I could have given up at the point where the faults included the factory reset not working, any attempt to change the servo settings was causing a track short circuit, servos were not centring properly, with  the arms rotating 180 degrees to the opposite position! Given a number of additional problems it was looking like a dead loss.

 

This was running the system as suggested off the DCC track supply. When I disconnected that and attached a 12v DC supply it was a different kettle of fish altogether. In fact, it looks like it will work rather nicely. Another breakthrough was deciding to move away from the Ratio mechanisms I had been using to  a much more simple mechanical implementation as shown in this video on Youtube:-

 

 

 

Despite my position of relative happiness right now, I have to say that the instructions are not good - they refer in places to the ANE original product rather than the slightly modified Peco one and I am not impressed by the ease with which one can plug things in the wrong way around nor the flimsiness of the attachment of the various connectors to the PCB. I had to resolder many joints which were loosened by repeated screwing and unscrewing whilst fault diagnosing. It's a shoddy product which, at the price, should be a good deal better than it is. 

 

 

Chris Gardner

Alton

Hants

Although I was able to post that the system performed better on 12v DC than DCC track power, it again began to reset itself whilst turned off. Having worked on it for many hours a day now for 3 or 4 days, I have finally thrown in the towel and will try the Heathcote Electronics bouncing signal controller, still using the Peco Servos so as to recoup some of the expenditure....... Judging by earlier posts in this thread I am far from being the only person who has given up on the Peco product. 

Chris Gardner

Alton

Hants

I have spent a couple of days installing Peco Smartswitches to control handbuilt signals on my layout. So far I have very little to show for my effort. I could have given up at the point where the faults included the factory reset not working, any attempt to change the servo settings was causing a track short circuit, servos were not centring properly, with  the arms rotating 180 degrees to the opposite position! Given a number of additional problems it was looking like a dead loss.

This was running the system as suggested off the DCC track supply. When I disconnected that and attached a 12v DC supply it was a different kettle of fish altogether. In fact, it looks like it will work rather nicely. Another breakthrough was deciding to move away from the Ratio mechanisms I had been using to  a much more simple mechanical implementation as shown in this video on Youtube:-

Despite my position of relative happiness right now, I have to say that the instructions are not good - they refer in places to the ANE original product rather than the slightly modified Peco one and I am not impressed by the ease with which one can plug things in the wrong way around nor the flimsiness of the attachment of the various connectors to the PCB. I had to resolder many joints which were loosened by repeated screwing and unscrewing whilst fault diagnosing. It's a shoddy product which, at the price, should be a good deal better than it is. 

Chris Gardner

Alton

Hants

I have a question about DCC and the O2s. The two I have running at the moment have both been fitted with DCC Concepts Zen Decoders (I can't remember which ones they are exactly, but I don't think that is crucial to the answer.  One is a simple plug in, the other is hard-wired and has a Stay Alive (as supplied with the Decoder) added.

I cannot read back the CVs or even the address from these locos, using a Gaugemaster DCC Doctor. My other locos fitted with the same decoders and both with and without the stay-alive device can be read back quite happily. I am wondering if the difference is down to the motor used in the Kernow model. 

I have a hunch that the "stay alive" might also be affecting the loco's performance - it has a very slightly pulsing motion rather than the completely smooth running of the one without "stay alive".

I'm curious to know if anyone else has the same problem(s), or categorically doesn't have them, with these decoders in these locos.

Thanks

Chris

I agree with you Chris.  I suspect it's because DCC Concepts are overloaded (press button and hold for 3 seconds to reset  ), what with simultaneously developing and releasing Alpha products, and moving DCC Concepts' head office to the UK (see announcement on Gaugemaster web site). 

 

The video is basically the same as what's in the Cobalt Alpha user manual.  I've decided that confusion will reign until the autumn when all will suddenly become clearer!  

 

Richard

Going back over your earlier post, it became fairly clear to me that the real selling point of Alpha is that it means you can get the benefit of DCC (i.e. simplification of the wiring) whilst  being able to control your signals and turnouts from a switchboard or lever frame, with a mimic board if you want it. Somehow this fairly simple USP does not come across quickly and clearly  from the plethora of marketing material, whilst the "simple as Lego" slogan is just disingenuous. 

Chris

i guess I probably come over as knocking DCC Concepts, but I have a fair quantity of their products on my layout and have had a very good experience with it. Their marketing however needs a complete overhaul because it Is baffling and does the products themselves few favours.

Not exactly as easy as Lego then!

p71 of the latest Model Rail (No.221) which arrived in my letterbox this morning - an advert for DCC Concepts "A-Mimic". Never-before mentioned I think. Apparently it works with all DCC system brands. But what does it do, and is it complementary to or does it replace all or some of the rest of Alpha range?

I am left completely bemused by it, and have deduced that it may provide the basis for creating a mimic diagram illuminated by LEDs.  And such a panel is going to be as easy to assemble as Lego, we are told.   All for £49.95!   Come on -  I really doubt that. It's so badly presented!   

Or am I just being stupid? I would be interested to know what others make of it. 

Chris Gardner

Alton

Hants

Interesting stuff here about dismantling as well as EM conversion:-

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/109446-kernow-02-em-gauge-conversion/?p=2244880

So what has been announced this weekend at the show

Well, I guess it could be the fact that from May DCC Concepts will be based in the UK, as Rand let slip in his last e-mail......?

Chris

I phoned Gaugemaster last year to ask about certain DCC C products (I fancied the module that would do 16 points switching  or something similar). Very knowledgeable and helpful if you want to ask about suitability/compatibility etc..

Phil

Thanks Phil.   I have by-passed the whole issue by staying with an electro-mechnical system!

Chris

Stepping back a bit from all this...

When thinking through how I would control my new layout, begun in retirement and intended to keep me busy for evermore, it occurred to me that:-

a) In the absence of a viable wireless/radio control set up for 4mm scale (especially a layout like mine which only has small tank engines), DCC was the obvious way to go since it makes driving a model train pretty much like driving the real thing.  It allows a separation of the duties of a signalman from those of a driver and means you can run your railway like a railway. And that's what I wanted.

b) DCC was also a possibility for turnouts and signals. Except they can already be controlled by mechanical or electrical (non digital) means, precisely in accordance with the prototype, and therefore weren't exactly looking for a new solution.

c) DCC does offer a saving in time spent wiring - but it's a one-off saving per layout, and that has to be traded off against the additional cost of the digital kit. And, as with most things electronic, one risks the equipment becoming obsolete or simply wearing out, as seems to be the way with computerised stuff.

Therefore, despite being momentarily tempted by what DCC Concepts had to offer, because of the cost (and the simple fact the products were being hyped before they even existed!) I came down on the side of electrical control of turnouts and signals, and the money I might have spent on the digital equipment I spent on  lovely brass kits (by Modratec) of fully interlocked lever frames which drive little SPDT switches which fire the point motors. 

In the process I discovered a hitherto unknown benefit which is that you can still change the points when a loco causes a short circuit by driving into a wrongly-switched crossing!

Chris Gardner

Alton

Hampshire

There is a double page advert in Hornby Magazine 106 (April 2016) which does little to demystify the various Alpha products and steers clear of quoting any prices.

I was considering using the Alpha system on my layout and read all the manuals many months ago, as well as having a detailed conversation with DCC Concepts via e-mail, before concluding the small one-off saving in the time to wire the layout was not worth the huge cost of buying the various boxes I would need. I've now installed the point motors in the traditional way, some weeks before DCC Concepts got the product on the market.

Frankly, the advert in Hornby Magazine is baffling. The PDFs on the Internet are also baffling (and who chose blue print on blue background?). I defy anyone, on the basis of reading the two pages in Hornby magazine, to have any clue as to why they might want such equipment and how they would expect to benefit from it, let alone how much they would have to invest in it.

It may be a great product for some people but it's so badly marketed it's going to find it difficult to find and reach its market.

Chris Gardner

Alton

Hampshire

Stop Press - I have been corresponding with Allen Doherty of Worsley Works who is interested in preparing etches for the SECR coaches. I am pursuing this avenue with a view to ordering a few. It depends on the success of recreating the rivetting effect on the sheeted sections.  He is a 3mm scale specialist but does supply his etches in other scales.

I am most of the way through building his Brighton Saloon coach, and have found it goes together very well and makes a lovely model.

No connection other than as a satisfied customer.

Chris