alastairq

Nice looking Zody up front [my favourite Zody Zephs]

I fully understand [and have much experience of] the frustration that LGV drivers [HGV's disappeared in the 1970's]....undergo regarding other types of vehicel, and speeds. However, there is another reason , aside from sizes & weights, that a Cat C licence category is rather more stringently assessed than, for example, a Cat B. The LGV driver has been assessed [and trained, if they but understood it all at the time] to make full allowance for the fact that other road users may not, and are not compelled to, understand the problems faced by an LGV driver. [Or a PCV driver] So if I am driving along at a true 48 mph within a 50 mph limit, and an LGV gains on me from behind, that is the problem of the LGV driver, not mine. If my speedo states 50 mph, regardless of 'accuracy' [it will always be within the lawfully required limits of accuracy].....then, if yours says different, too bad! The LGV driver can easily knock 2 or 3 K's off their cruise control. Intimidation of other road users can be deemed a traffic offence. No LGV driver could ever pass a Cat C driving test by displaying intimidating, or 'bullying' tactics towards other road users.. There is absolutely no difference between the standards of driving having to be displayed on a driving test, and any other time. Anyone who thinks so, has no understanding of what the training, & testing, of drivers actually involves...which is a very common trait amongst all students undergoing training of any sort. Of the above, I have considerable professional experience. In many ways , it dismays me to witness LGV drivers intimidating others. I understand why it happens, on a human level...since not every LGV-licensed] driver possesses the sense of responsibility and duty, towards the Law , and others, that might be expected of someone doing the job I was involved with. In the end, most LGV drivers are much like most car drivers....susceptible to all the influences and misconceptions regarding driving. It would be nice if an LGV driver considered the effect of the size [for example] of their vehicle might have upn other road users...and operate it accordingly. Those who don't give a damn when whizzing their lorry down a road at 30 mph, within a foot of a standing pedestrian, just because the speed limit is 30 mph, without a thought as to the effect their lorry might have on that pedestrian [even if nether touches each other.], are not living up to the standards of consideration their license actually imposes upon them. But, it is human nature not to give a damn about others.....and LGV drivers in general are no exception.

Even going back to the old paper tacho days, discs had to be retained for a certain [longish] period of time. They could be inspected on demand by the VOSA as-was. [DVSA now] Employers have to retain all drivers records too [nowadays on computers] for potential inspection at a later date. The same also goes for vehicle defect cards..... which must have a fitter's response to a reported defect. These are also retained for inspection. Vehicle computers can also be downloaded months & months behind..... Enforcement Officers may need to see a driver's work records out in the field. Hence why the records , in whatever form, need to be 'produced'. In the old days before power steering, the driver had their hand written log book...

The Ghurka Rifles troop had their training area near Catterick Right alongside the Para's P troop training area. It was said, the Paras used to look across to the Ghurka Rifles training, not envying them one iota. Whereas the Ghurka Rifles used to look across at P troop, not envying them either. Ghurkas [and other Nepalese soldiers ] are nowadays fully integrated into all the cap badges.....so one can find Ghurkas in most of the military trades as well.... The infrequent Ghurka curry nights were a taste to remember. Come to that [thinking of Sandhurst?] we also used to get ''Troop Commanders' courses to run [vehicles and associated skills]... Nowadays its all about transport management...

I'm willing to bet 87% of drivers out there have no idea who a Ghurka is, what they can do, and the skills they have. Probably the Ghurka will be driving as well, since they can be very good drivers indeed [having trained many]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-58767230 I think the most worrying aspect of the story linked to above is, the following drivers are all voters? The 2nd most worrying thing for insurance companies is, the following drivers are busy scootling around on the public highways, with an acute lack of awareness? Or, are we expecting too much, of the driving population, to realise what a liquid[fuel] tanker actually looks like, when compared to a bulker? I note the Army are now to be used to shift fuel? I have no doubt whatsoever in the abilities of the drivers [unless trained by contractors?]....but I do worry for their personal safety? Given the behaviour of those who get reported when seeking fuel? I have had zero issues obtaining sufficient fuel for my needs, locally. Diesel Dorises might have issues, but we petrolheadz are well served. Mind, I did witness [ie, I suppose I might have been called a ''victim of?''}...sheer bloody-minded behaviour of a driver when I last went to get fuel? The petrol station, a large Esso [rural] spot, had customers, but no queues. As I turned in, an obviously frustrated [bless him, I suppose I should say?]...panzerwagon driver [all tin bodywork, pill box windows, typical modern car]...was actually driving round in circles looking for a pump which hadn't run dry of diesel...Anyway, he wasn't going to wait for me at all, even though I was entering...he thought he should cut in front of me...well, as it happened, I pulled onto the most convenient pump for me, which had plenty of E10 petrol....mad Mr Gwumpy then did another circle, and went to drive off. As he waited for a gap in the traffic, I bellowed some potential abuse at his open window in my best [into the teeth of a force nine gale] bellow....and filled up. Diesel & E5 petrol had been exhausted...plenty of E10.. Only LGVs were above to fill on the station's LGV pump.... Lady in front of me at checkout, wasting time by asking checkout lass [we don't have 'girls' up here]....if she knew whether lady's 5 year old car could run on E10? [My husband normally puts my fuel in!]....Checkout lass busied herself with a clip board of information....as one does with best customer care.... I did wonder how come folk were driving about so completely unaware of what has been going on in the world of driving, for some years now? All of which confirms my thoughts that the driving licence is merely a travel pass to many?....Like a personal transport oyster card? I hope my doctor is more knowledgeable? Or will he/she/not sure, just rely on a tick list on the NHS website?

Not pickin' on you, admiles...just a convenient link, tis all....but... The danger that arises on dual carriageways [in the UK] stems from the low levels of competence displayed by the drivers using them [in this instance, the lorry driver{s}] A competent driver on a dual carriageway should expect to come across slow, or even, stationary traffic...especially if they can't physically see clearly, far enough ahead, for the speed & vehicle type they are driving. Even a brand new, just-passed the test, young driver who bothers to undergo what was once called the ''Pass-Plus' additional driver training, would have been aware of the huge differences in what a driver can expect to find, between a dual carriageway, and a motorway. Folk bang on about including motorway driving in the basic driving tests.....yet for decades, the Driving Test had to include [if at all physically possible] a dual carriageway! Far more ''full of dangers'' than any motorway. Also requiring far more attention from the test candidate. The biggest danger with this Cat C{+E} driver shortage, is the temptation to 'lower standards' just to see us through the hard times? But, of course, in real life I suppose all the above is just wishful thinking? LIke everything else, driving standards will level out at the lowest common denominator.... Glad I'm retired from all that stuff now.....

Hmmm, I just spotted the thread entitled 'Washout in Dawlish'....i read that as 'Miss Whiplash...'', twice! All thanks to this thread....and the brain pix it has left me with..

Depends how deep & far the GB Govt. have to go to actually get all those visas effectively issued?

This is...or should be, expected by any competent driver, when driving along a dual carriageway. Along with all sorts of other conflicting traffic .[Crossing traffic, traffic in the right lane stopping to turn right, flocks of sheep [or petrol station queues?] tractors, bicycles, pedestrians, etc. However, I do acknowledge your point, but this is down to drivers failing to change their driving heads from motorway heads to dual carriageway heads. Which is why, the safest roads to drive on are motorways [no conflicting traffic]...and the most 'dangerous' [IE, risk-laden] roads to drive on are dual carriageways. Standing traffic on a motorway [road under motorway regulations..not necessarily multi lane,] is a nasty thing.....

No good for the employee if all the vehicles are 'blacked'.....then there's the mortgage payments to consider? AS well as the backlash from all those who suffered because ambulances or fire appliances cannot get fuel? Or all those whose cars, so essential for getting to work, or working, full stop, because of the lack of fuel deliveries? Certain jobs are deemed of strategic importance, by successive governments of all colours. {For example, the emergency services?} Ever since the coal & electricity generating strikes of the 1970's [which brought down governments]....successive governments have strived to prevent strategic workers from using striking as a method of airing grievances.

Probably find something in employment contracts regarding so-called 'blacking' of vehicles? As I said above, today, in the event of a firepeeps strike, the military would use the proper fire appliances that are currently in storage [Home Office]...which are yesterday's appliances that have been bumped by new machines.

That's waaahaaay out of date. [I was also a Green Goddess Instructor...and that ticket timed out 10 years ago!] The military do not use Green Goddesses. [I expect they've all been sold off to motor caravan builders by now?] Either for their own purposes, or when providing emergency cover. What they will use, for providing emergency cover in a civilian role, are proper fire appliances that have been downgraded from the Fire brigades' current vehicles. {They will be kept in storage, maintained in working order. Just as all unallocated Government vehicles are] The machines will be mostly red, and very very few will have 4wd, or the pumping capacities of the old Green Goddess. The military personnel will also be under the auspices of the Home Office. Not the MoD. Just as in times past, when a Green Goddess surge was imposed, civilian MoD instructors found themselves working under Home Office auspices.

It's {whatever} govt's strategic policy. Like the military providing cover during Firepeeps strikes? The unions can stamp their feet as much as they like.....! The precautions are in place...and have been for some time. The public have demanded it in the past. [Actually achieved with Union Agreement, as it happens. Which is one reason why the training was/is so very much more intensive and in-depth when compared . The civilian instructors ....there are military-personnel instructors as well.............mostly belong to their own Union anyway [PCS] }

Indeed they would! Somewhere up above is a post of mine ''vaguely'' detailing the military 'situation' regarding fuel supplies. Briefly, the ''Op !!!!!'' was established in order to train military personnel to 'take over' civilian fuel supplies in the event of [originally] a tanker drivers' strike. The training course was established by civilian instructors [MoD Civil servants]...and assessed to the criteria set down by the civilian tanker owners. Civilian [owned] vehicles would be used. Military tankers are often inappropriate for civilian use. Don't want to frighten the weee peeps, do we? http://www.military-today.com/trucks/oshkosh_wheeled_tanker_l1.jpg

According to the BBC, Scotland is beginning to face a shortage of fuel of a more serious nature. Apparently there is a disruption in production of Irn Bru, blamed for the most part on the shortage of LGV drivers. Apparently, LGV drivers have been turning up for work, only to discover they are too tall. Scottish consumers are being requested to only purchase enough Irn Bru for their immediate needs, as supplies are diminishing [getting smaller] This will continue for as long as short LGV drivers remain elusive... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-58710019

Overalls seem to be the one aspect of life far too many children are keen to avoid. That, and anything that gets their hands physically dirty, so it seems??

One possibly 'good' outcome from all this fuel business is, McDonalds comes out squeaky clean..... seeing as they run all their lorries on re-cycled chip & burger fat....? Good ol' Maccydees...

WW2 wouldn't have had the outcome it did, if the US [& the UK to a lesser extent] had 'restricted' business operation. A lot of businesses made a decent profit out of meeting demands.... The 'opposition', on the other hand, exercised a strong degree of control over business.....

Consumption has been depressed for the past 18 months, anyway. The pingdemic, fewer miles travelled, reduction in personal commuting, more ecumenical cars, even the tickling of electric cars all conspire to depress fuel consumption overall. Personally I cannot blame the GB government at all. [Except with hindsight]....It wouldn't matter what colour or flavour of government we had, the results would be the same. At least we have a government? Unlike Germany at present, where the 'winning' political party will be hamstrung for lorry-knows how long whilst they try to come to some agreement with the more extreme political parties, in order to form some sort of government? The biggest cause of the current woes is down to one thing! Greed! Greed on the part of consumers. Greed on the part of the various industries. Everybody will be happy as long as no-one upsets the applecart. Well, thanks to the media [or, the use of the media?] an apple cart has been upset. I bet the next upset will be, when the Exchequer realises it is losing a lot of revenue from VED on cars, so will start charging VED for electric cars [they still wear out the roads, just the same as petrol car].... Being financially comfortable [as distinct from, bumping along the bottom from one payday to the next?] brings a certain smugness of attitude. Like It or not, it's unavoidable. Thus, can we afford to take the moral high ground. Thus we can afford to 'buy' an electric car. Thus we can feel good about what we see as 'doing our bit?' Imagine how we'd feel, being compelled to pay VED, for example, all of a sudden? It will happen.

Having enjoyed two coffees reading this thread, I have some observations. Firstly, regarding apparent fuel shortages? What doesn't seem to have been mentioned is that petrol [especially] these days has a very short shelf life. Certainly when compared to petrol sold in, for example, the 1960's. [Which is why old vehicle owners have encountered running problems with their vehicles. It's todays [or rather, last month's] petrol. [Nothing to do with ethanol] So a fuel station that doesn't have an excessive normal turnover will not want to store an excessive amount of petrol. This is compounded by the fact that petrol [and doyzel, Doris!]...differs in ingredients, not just summer to winter, but also spring to autumn. Petrol is like a cabbage...doesnt keep for more than a month or so, let alone though half the year! [The lad who filled his kiddies paddling pool will get his comeuppance, because today's petrol, with its content of ethanol [so his kiddies can breathe easier?]....will readily absorb all the surrounding water vapour....he'll plop that in his car, and spend the next 5000 miles spluttering around!] Then there's the 'driver shortage'. Wages being what they are/were, there are many jobs where the 'basic ' wage is depressed enough that employees like to/need to work, overtime. Overtime is cheaper on the wages bill than employing a lot more, basically-paid staff. So companies employing drivers don't want to completely stock up with drivers, where no-one gets a chance of overtime, when the company can normally operate with fewer employees, some of whom are happy to work the overtime. It's the ''just-in-time' concept, stretched over to staffing. Surely? I saw it [and the effects when there's a cock-up] when employed as bus driver, and when employed by the civil service [MoD] as a specialist instructor[driving, etc]... On the buses, one day the company acquired someone with managerial qualifications{??? but whose background was the retail industry...Marks & Sparks, to be precise]......He visited depots and wondered why [especially first thing of a morning] there was a driver, on full pay, sitting around apparently ''doing nowt''........the Spare Driver! So he got the bright-spark idea of doing away with the spare driver [look how much money I can save the company, Mr Chairperson? Looks good on the CV for when I move on in two years time....as one does when in love with the career concept? The Army was full of it!] The idea worked well enough for a week or two...until an early doors driver phoned in sick. Bus stood on forecourt [fitters had moved it].....ready to go, passengers waitng to board, no driver! Off duty driver telephoned, told to 'come in', replied, 's@d off, not enough notice....company rules, hoist by, etc] Happening once was bad enough. When it started happening every single day, the new manager had some awkward questions to answer!! Spare driver post re-instated toot sweet. There has always been a shortage of LGV [and PCV] drivers nationwide. Certainly in my working lifetime. [1967 up to 5 years ago next month] Such a shortage probably makes the various companies concerned, more profitable? The issue has been raised time & again over the decades. Then there's the admirable 'working time directive?' Which puts the kybosh on LGV drivers actually being allowed to work overtime?? There's a shortage of [skilled] workers in the social care industry, too. Knowing the wage structure in that industry, I am not surprised.. Seems as a society we all want ''summat for nowt?''

Yup, I was taking the wee-wee BAck in the 1970's, parliament [Ted 'eaff', I think?] debated combining the HGV with the PSV licences. This was given the heave ho as the two tests, whilst technically similar, have some considerable differences regarding elfin saftee.. But, mainly, until the mid 1980's whilst the DSA [or rather ministry of transport?] set the syllabus and conducted the HGV testing...the PSV tests [& licence issue] were set & conducted by the Area Traffic Commissioners. [There were also issues regarding bus drivers not having criminal records, for example...being of good character, etc...] . Although both tests were frequently conducted by the 'same' Examiners....each working for a different 'boss' depending. Hence London Transport conducted their own driver testing. [As well as Met. Police, etc...which was a similar test, just a smaller vehicle!] It is also why London Transport could incorporate a skid pan assessment as well. Nowt worse than Kensington High Street on a wet day, in an RT. Thus, bus drivers [and conductors, they were licenced as well, by the Traffic Commissioners]...had those red badges..and why, once one moved out of the area of issue, one had to change the badge..and, often , undergo another driving test, for the new Area Traffic Commissioners. All changed when we went completely EU & off our rockers.

Lorry driver shortages? What is often ignored in these arguments re-shortages concerns the figures. For LGV drivers, the 'short' figures also include those operators who need drivers who are prepared to work for peanuts...and who, in normal circumstances, struggle to find or retain drivers. Then there are the 'agencies'.....? How many drivers are they 'really' short? Especially when they struggle to fill slots, simply because drivers on their books are perhaps sick, or on holiday, or even, just don't fancy doing that particular job? Do these [currently unfilled] vacancies get put down to a 'shortage' of drivers? At any given point in time, how many unfilled driver places would in fact be best suited to 'part-time' drivers, perhaps doing one or two days' work a week? WAge levels in many workplaces are set, in my view, by the 'lowest common denominator.' As an example form my own work experience....as a bus driver many decades ago, the outfit I worked for [EYMS] worked NAtional Express runs. There was a huge disconnect in the amounts drivers doing National Express were paid...This affected the companies ability to operate the National Express contracts. How can companies paying a decent wage to their drivers, compete with the two -bus back yard firms who also do National Express, but employ part t-ime drivers? Many of these were [to quote a not exaggerated example] the plumbers who were doing a National Express run on a weekend, simply for the pocket money. They were almost doing it for fun! Simply because they had a CAt D licence. Also, can someone tell me where this Class 1 HGV licence thing is? I held a Cat C+E.... a category which allowed me to drive any LGV over 7.5 tonnes, with a trailer. In my 20 years of being involved with Cat C [+E too] training and operation, I had never come across any bit of paper or plastic which mentions Class 1 licences. [Not since the mid 1970's anyway, when the HGV books went out]... I can [or would if I reclaimed my vocational categories] drive & manoeuver any artic, or drawbar trailer.....and make a fair fist of the most difficult trailer to manoeuver, the drawbar with a turntable. Artics are [in my view] vrey easy to manoeuver. Those drivers who drive the little Milk Marque tanks [two axle vehicles] with their little turntable drawbar tank [2 axle, usually] trailers are the doggz beees when it comes to driver skills.....The can put those wee trailers anywhere. Get an artic driver to do likewise, and they'll be tied in knots quick-time!

Don't forget, the Automatic Milking System? {Quite why I would want to be made aware of, let along rush out & order, an automatic milking system, is really beyond me......}

The question of ''using the Army [and RAF]'' to supplement civilian drivers for fuel deliveries is fraught with it's own issues. Firstly, the soldiers/air personnel have been, and are being, trained to far higher standards thanks to the civilian operators dictating the course criteria. Significant in that the military will be using the civilian operators' vehicles. [Rather than turning up in an Oshkosh and off-road capable tanker] The have all undergone ADR courses [and passed] provided by the MoD. As such, they will all be quit competent drivers [especially the lasses]... I had some personal contact with the courses when they were first set up. The physical driving side was created by civilian instructors who had long, personal experience of tanker driving. [Not a couple of years, but decades] This involved re-creating all the nasty devious types of ancient oil refinery loading spots, all the nasty devious delivery spots, that could be thought of. [Nothing is straight forwards for a lorry or bus driver in this country..it has too much in the way of legacy infrastructure!!!] The tanker training itself was conducted with civilian equivalents [on lease, I believe, probably]....artic vehicle [albeit the tanks filled with water, not fuel] But first the 'students' had to undergo artic training and assessment ... {My involvement here was, training instructors to fill places should the Op be activated] Having already passed the appropriate Hazmat course....the students then pass the main course.....BUT, unless they are utilized almost immediately , they go away to 'do other things', such is the life of military personnel. Thus, although they are 'qualified' they will likely be timed-out for that qualification, and need refresher training. Which won't be an immediate action..it takes time to get personnel away frote 'jobs' they are doing now, send them back to [DCLPA, aka DST] to undergo an appropriately worked-up refresher course....This all takes time. Plus, who will do the jobs that are vacated by the personnel who are now on a refresher course to drive civilian tankers? A lot of shuffling about of personnel..and instructors, of course. Of course, there has been for decades a shortage of qualified instructors too....something the MoD wanted to close its eyes to, but were awakened after I retired....[again, like LGV drivers, an aging skilled workforce...} After the turn of the century [this one, not the last one].....the DSA [now DVSA] had an issue with LGV instructors nationwide. Unlike car driver instructors {ADI] there was no official LGV instructor register...anyone could do it, effectively [and, still can]... So the DSA set up a Register....whereupon mst of the Cat C, C+E & D+E instructors employed by the MoD [civil servants] qualified for, and were placed on the DSA LGV Instructor register.....numbers soared from a couple of hundred, nationwide, to well over a thousand, just from my own Establishment alone. Come renewal time, the DSA wanted £125 from each of us, teh MoD refused to subsidies, and the Registration wasn't in itself a compulsory requirement for us to do our various instructional jobs....so, almost overnight, the DSA was faced with a drip of Registered Instructors of nearly a half...we all got snottograms from DSA [in a fit of pique, obviously] about not renewing....{ I should add, we all held relevant military qualifications for our relevant work...which paralleled, and sometimes exceeded, civilian equivalents] The current political suggestion of utilising Military Driving Examiners to test civilians is a nice idea...but will involve both civilian & military personnel, who are definitely not currently just sitting around doing nothing for a living. [Military examiners are 'governed' by the DSA as-was] So, whilst MoD examiners are out testing civilians, who is testing the military personnel also being trained? Mind, the military have never hit their recruitment targets [hence when cuts in personnel have been demanded, very few if any, recently have been chucked out...since the existing numbers of personnel were actually below the new lower number demanded..... So like every other aspect of our lives, the reality numbers never ever mathc the top line numbers. Whether it's lorry drivers, teachers, medical personnel, or whatever.