Nick Holliday

You could always take a leaf out of the Brighton’s Croydon book, where there was the boring East, West and South, but the added zest of Central and New. New Brighton sounds good, but it might upset the citizens of the Wirral, but duplicate station names did exist, and it might provide an excuse for some interesting northern visitors!

12 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

Wrong shape. 

 

Think about it. Pigs were cast into sand beds where the channels were formed using something like a large draw hoe. Sand, being sand would tend to try and fill in the channels so the tops would be wider than the bottoms and so the pigs would have a trapezoidal cross section. 

This photo, from the Harmsworth Self-Educator, shows clearly the cross-section of the pigs produced at that iron works, others may be different.  More of a truncated triangular shape, perhaps.

Many had the name moulded onto the bottom face, probably a detail too far.

5 hours ago, DickBrowne said:

The actual coach or the kit? The kit was a Ratio one, but we believe that the actual coach was built at Wolverton Works, so it would have been LNWR

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverton_railway_works

 

 

The Ratio kit is of Midland Railway origin, and I would suggest that the prototype is of similar ancestry. The style of windows and panelling is unlike most North Western designs, although perhaps not impossible.

Could you paint the whole thing white, and then apply the black, then, whilst wet, wiping the face to reveal the white?

2 hours ago, JaymzHatstand said:

Oooooo! Now these do look lovely, a nice array of liveries too. One thing that I've always wondered, and never thought to ask is about the use and/or appearance of p/o wagons in mixed trains. I'm in the slow process of assembling a number of pre-grouping (c1917) wagons to push around an NER goods

 yard and was wondering how likely it would be for one (or two) to turn up in such a place? Would they be confined to more bulky flows between owning company and end merchant, or would the odd coal wagon find its way down a branch line?

PO wagons, at least native ones, were relatively rare on the NER, as the railway company had control of most coal traffic, with their own hopper wagons, suitable for their coal drops, being popular. However, it might be possible for local merchants to have ordered coal from “foreign “ mines or coal factors, to meet special requirements, such as Welsh anthracite, but it would probably be only one or two wagons at a time. Bulk flows were generally confined to pit to dock traffic, apart from supplies to major power stations like Birmingham.

2 hours ago, JaymzHatstand said:

 

I suppose that during WWI they would have been absorbed into the common pool, and could reasonably be assumed to be seen anywhere, if not a little care-worn?

 

The 'Griff' one is of particular interest to me, if only for the name, and I'm sure I could pick another couple to add a splash of colour to the (mostly) shades of grey that early wagons found themselves in!

 

Cheers

 

J

During WW1 the private traders wagons were not pooled, so they usually remained in their peace time habitats. Most of them were actually on hire and, as part of the agreements, they were required to be repainted at regular intervals, and, as a result, would probably looked in better condition than some of the railway company owned stock.

41 minutes ago, wagonbasher said:

Dapol have two livery versions of CRC wagons.  I suspect therefore that some works photos are available, they won’t have tried two hard to find source material.  I guess there is an image or two in the Turton PO books.  How do I find out without buying about 17 books.  My book case couldn’t take it anyway.  Has anyone index’s them, don’t mind buying 1 or 2….

 

Andy

Searchable index on the Lightmoor Press website.

This photo demonstrates that there was no fixed design, size or livery!

Possibly taken at Eastbourne, from background, or perhaps Fratton, based on owner.

All you need to do is go to the High Level website, and look at downloads and select

https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/_files/ugd/27e471_881f108a2e4744a3ae45c0e71e5d3c88.pdf 

One thing we may be overlooking is that, certainly in the Weald, in south east England, according to this piece in the Sussex Industrial Archaeological Society journal, http://www.sussexias.co.uk/articles/articles_lime_kilns.htm it was normal for each farm to have its own simple kiln, and they would burn their lime as required, using chalk from up to 12 miles away. I suspect that the NER wagons were used to carry limestone, which would be hauled away from the station to the farm in open carts. Transporting burnt lime in open wagons seems fraught with problems, and would probably require some form of specialised flooring to prevent rot. Otherwise the lime would be bagged, as it would be in the vans, but for agricultural use this would not be too sensible given the quantities that would be required to treat fields.

17 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

then squirrels and magpies no doubt!

I think you need a Ford Anglia too! It is the Whomping Willow, isn’t it?

This article gives plenty of background to this train.

https://www.victorianvoices.net/ARTICLES/MISC/LadiesRealm/LR1902-HospitalTrain.pdf

19 hours ago, PaulaDoesTrains said:

On 08/03/2023 at 09:26, Willie Whizz said:

I would suggest that also responsible for the popularity of the GWR branch line in the 1950s and 60s was that BBC “Interlude” showing a cute little 0-4-2 tank engine trundling round a nicely-scenic layout with the instrumental music “Wheels” playing in the background. Free BBC advertising!

 

(For those too young to remember, back in those days most tv programmes went out “live” from the studio, and if the next one wasn’t quite ready to start they would put on a short (2-3 minute) film as a “filler” - another well-remembered one being a potter’s wheel. 

 

I remember that so well. Thanks for mentioning it. I had dreams of emulating it by building a layout running around the walls of my bedroom. Never happened of course: O levels, A levels, Uni, growing up etc. I only discovered in the past few years that it was done by a gentleman named Bob Symes who, apparently, was well known in railway modelling circles in those days. There's a video on YouTube somewhere where he says how he filmed it. It was O gauge and the loco only ran over a few yards of track IRC. The rest was done by very clever camera work and editing.

The film, made by Bob Symes (Robert Symes-Shutzmann - full name) can be seen here, starting at 4:00 

As he explains before it starts, it was made in a BBC2 sound stage, which had been made redundant due to the new colour stage being opened, so the actual year it was made was sometime between 1964 when BB2 started, and 1968 when colour broadcasts began, probably nearer the latter date. It seems as if the film was intended only for personal use, but the Controller of BBC2 came upon it, and decided it would be suitable as a filler, but long after the more familiar interludes (potter's wheel etc.).

Use was made of his Payerbrook & Fairlie layout, which had appeared at at least one MRC show in Westminster, which was definitely 00 gauge.  I think there was a short set of straight track, with a tunnel and an underbridge, which looks suspiciously like the Hornby bridge then available, with the odd panel in the centre.

An article in, I think, Model Railway Constructor showed how it was filmed, with a camera dolly running parallel with the track for most shots, with the mask of a carriage window used for some shots, and clever editing made the run look infinitely longer than it was.  The final shot shows the train stopping at one of the stations on the P&F, and a hand removes the loco.

Came across this brief snippet  on YouTube showing one of the early Southern diesels, probably 10202 being refilled at Waterloo. Short but showing how it was done in those pioneering days. Sorry, I can’t work out how to insert the actual video, but it should be easy to find.

11 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Actually, Tony, I'm not sure that your quote in italics holds true. Thinking about the situation pre 1977 (the start of the far East revolution) what did the GWR modeller have at his disposal RTR wise? The venerable HD 'Castle', the truly awful Triang 'Hall' and a Pannier from the same stable, sitting on their universal 0-6-0 chassis. The first two were hardly branchline locos, were they? I think the venerable Triang 82xxx stood in on many a layout.

 

Even when 'Mainline' (Palitoy) launched in 1977, what were the debut locos? The NER/LNER(!) J72 and a BR standard. I seem to recall that the LMS 3-cyl 4-6-0s followed on pretty quickly afterwards. In competition, Airfix produced a 'Prairie' - with filled in pony and trailing truck wheels (ugh!) and a push-along 'Castle'. They also produced a push-along LMS 4F and, in an early example of duplication, a push along 'Royal Scot'.

 

No, I think the committed GWR branchline modeller had to resort to kit building like everyone else, K's certainly producing plenty of suitable kits.

 

Branchline layouts are relatively compact, better suited for the 'third bedroom' spare room and fairly quickly constructed. And the GWR particularly specialised in the genre. QED? I also have a theory that the GWR was unique amongst the 'Big Four' in coming from one dominant pre-grouping progenitor, meaning 'business as usual' in 1923. Ergo, an easier, more straightforward choice of prototypes for the RTR manufacturer to go at.

 

There were more GWR locomotives available much earlier than 1970. From around 1950, Gaiety was producing a fairly accurate Pannier tank; cast metal body with a robust chassis. This was available in a number of variations until the sixties. The main concern was some rather sturdy boiler fittings, which a keen modeller could easily address. Rev. Awdry is said to have been inspired by this model when he created Duck.

Another manufacturer active in the fifties was Graham Farish. They produced a small range of OO locos, mostly forgettable but including a GWR King and, apparently, a large Prairie. This range was abandoned by 1959, but, in a relaunch in 1961, bounced back with the Prairie and the 94xx pannier tank, together with a GWR Toad brake van. Not exactly bucolic Western branch stock, but better than nothing, until the Keyser 14xx kit appeared.

9 hours ago, tythatguy1312 said:

Something which should reasonably draw curiosity is the presence of a gap in the official designations of the LB&SCR E Class tank engines, with the E1's and E3's both carrying those designations nearly 10 years before the E2's came into the picture. Considering that this designation was created by Marsh, I will admit I'm curious as to what a theoretical Marsh E2 Class would've actually looked like and how it would've performed in service, as opposed to the overblown pile of mediocrity which was actually built. Would it simply have been the E1X?

Sorry to disappoint you, but there was a real Stroudley E2 loco. In 1894 he produced No 157, Barcelona, which he called an E Special.

https://www.lbscr.org/Rolling-Stock/Locomotives/Stroudley/ES.xhtml

It was designed to haul goods trains on the Cuckoo Line, and was basically an E with a larger boiler and Gladstone cylinders. Although Marsh did allocate E2, the nomenclature never stuck, and it was called E1 before the Billinton tanks appeared. According to Bradley it came out in passenger livery, although designed for more humble duties, but was painted goods green in 1890. It was withdrawn in 1922.

10 hours ago, wessy said:

The book on LYR locomotives by Barry Lane states that number plates on locos were painted to indicate the builder, but he doesn't state the colours. However Nock's history of the LYR lists them as follows:

Beyer Peacock  Green

Kitson  Blue

Miles Platting  Vermillion

Neilson  Chocolate

Sharp Stewart  Indigo

Vulcan Foundry  Light blue

 

No colour was recorded for Dubs engines.

 

Presumably although the colours were applied until the opening of Horwich and the ending of the use of outside builders, the number plates would not be repainted until the loco wwas.

Given that Ernest Carter’s livery book was published in 1952 and Oswald Nock’s L&YR book came out in 1969, there’s a strong possibility that OSN was merely quoting, as I did above, that single reference.  Effectively a “re-tweet” that unfortunately does not validate it.

Having built a model of Fittleworth https://www.scalefour.org/layouts/fittleworth.html which had cassette fiddle yards at each end, with reduced space I am thinking of operating with a single fiddle yard at the non-platform end, which also allows a separate headshunt.  I would strongly recommend you reverse your plan so that it works in a similar way. At the moment with a headshunt that only just takes a tender loco, and the rear siding's turnout is only a couple of wagons away from the headshunt turnout, you will only be able to move one or two wagons at a time, making shunting of a long train a nightmare.  With your fiddle yard effectively at the other end you can run longer strings of wagons in and out of the yard, and you could incorporate a separate headshunt which would allow you to shuttle passenger trains in and out whilst still shunting the yard.

I have very very crudely sketched out how it might work.  Obviously the curved bit needs to be straightened out, but you can move the key point at the entrance to the station further out to increase the length of train the run-round loop can handle.  If you retain the bridge at the end of the platform, it can suggest that the line extends further, and perhaps a second fiddle yard could be added if you find the extra space, or take it to an exhibition.

There are plenty of prototype examples where running round the passenger train is done away from the platform.

2 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

The three class system lasted longer on the railways south of the Thames because they were far more reliant on revenue from passengers too.

I think a greater factor was that all three classes persisted on the continent until the nineteen fifties, at least. I can recall wooden seats in third class on a trip to Greece in 1960. This meant there was felt to be a need to accommodate passengers in suitably appointed carriages, after their short sea crossing over the Channel to the south coast ports.

13 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Secondly, at present one individual is effectively spamming the blogs. The edit facility resets the date of the posting to "now" when posting the edited entry unless you take the trouble to record the original date and backdate the post to it's original . Someone who shall be nameless is using this as a trick to repeatedly bump his existing blog posts to the top of the page - there are about 8 of them - thus hogging the limelight and pushing other bloggers who are posting new content out of his way.

I'm not sure that the probable culprit is actually aiming for world domination.  I can't see how this is pushing other bloggers out of their way.  I suspect that they are not sure how a blog works (I don't) and think that editing is the way to do it.  This is counter-productive as each "new" entry appears identical at first sight to previous ones, and I would think that most readers will just ignore it completely, even if the latest entry might actually be interesting.  I believe a bit of guidance and education from the RMweb team would help to resolve some of these issues.

The Image Leicester website  

https://imageleicestershire.org.uk/collection?key=T3siUCI6eyJ0eXBlIjoxLCJpZHMiOlszNl19fQ&WINID=1676569521207

has around 100 photos of the locos used in the construction of the GCR London Extension.  Among the views of, mainly, Manning Wardle locos, there are several views of open cabs, some without locomen getting in the way!

3SMR list handrail knobs, but are the ones you have issues with?

The reference you are after is from E F Carter's book on liveries.

1876 - There was apparently a great variety in engine number-plates.  Engines built or rebuilt at Miles Platting Works had vermilion plates, some with an outer border of dark brown.  Engines built by Sharp, Stewart were dark indigo.  Those built by Kitsons were generally blue of an indigo shade, whilst those engines by the Vulcan Foundry had pale blue plates.  Neilson-built engines had chocolate-coloured plates, and those from Beyer, Peacock the same green as the locomotive bodies.

The trouble is he doesn't state his sources, and just seemed to record everything he found, without checking, so there are several contradictory entries throughout the book.  To put this one in context, there are 8 different entries for the year, which all refer to numberplates, yet none of the others mention this rainbow effect. I suspect the L&YR Society has discussed this in the past, but there doesn't seem to be anything about it in the book on L&Y locos.

On 08/01/2023 at 19:31, pete_mcfarlane said:

Off the top of my head:

 

Pen and Sword have done some books on German steam recently,

Unique books have a series of photo albums: https://www.uniquebooks.pub/unique-books-shop-2021

Middleton Press (European NG lines)

Oakwood Press (French NG)

Mainline and Maritime

Platform5 (mostly spotter books on the current European scene)

And there's Stenvalls, who are Swedish but do books on European railways in English. 

 

 

Lightmoor Press do a small number of books covering European and more distant locations. Not immediately apparent from their main index page, but mainly narrow gauge (or monorail).

8 hours ago, john new said:

They don’t advertise one.  Current R Modeller ad.

 

This looks like a website 

https://www.alphagraphixkits.co.uk