fezza

Does anyone know if there is a full list of all the BR outline products Lima produced? I'm sure I saw one on the interweb once, but I can't find it now. Wasn't there a Lima society at one stage that documented this stuff?

I'd also be interested in tracking down lists for Mainline/Replica but that might be a long shot 

13 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Nearly all my locos and stock are from recent toolings and to 'current' hi-fi RTR standards, but I have one or two museum pieces, and in the light of the above discusson it might be interesting (to me as much as to you good people) to write down and order my thoughts about this.  Something like:-

 

.I am happy with my recent tooling products, some more than others, but we are in a range from 'really good' to 'absolutely superb'.  They are the models I've always wanted, detailed, to scale, well finished, and with good slow running (I run in DC).

.That's not to say I don't think they could be improved, and I'd like to see better and smoother slow running, possibly at the expense of the ability to run on R2, and a bit more vertical play for loco bogies and ponies (I have small prairies that lifted their driving wheels off the rails at a fairly minor dip in my track, less than 0.01mm over the length of the locos, dip now corrected but this seemed a bit oversensitive to my view).  The fixing of some smaller discrete components by some companies needs looking at as well, a QC issue discussed many times before.

.Ok, let's look at the older models.  1) Mainline GW toad in BR bauxite fitted livery, poor underframe by current standards, moulded handrails; doesn't bother me much.  Works up to Cwmdimbath with traffic for Dimbath Metals (Electroplating and Galvanising Specialists) from a tinplate works in Taibach, branded 'Return to Port Talbot'.  2 )Hornby Airfix tooling A30 autotrailer, wrong cab doors, moulded detail, poor underframe, re-wheeling with Bachmann wheels improved the running.  This one does bother me, it's just not up to the mark despite the improved Hornby couplings and buffers.  3) Keyser whitemetal kit A31 autotrailer, worked up a bit, it is what it is, insanely thick bodysides, decent underframe detail, replacement Stafford Road printed fishbelly bogies.  4) Triang 'Docafority' psuedo-Bagnall diesel shunting engine for NCB, worked up including cab detail, modified front windows so it looks less like a Deltic, new buffers & couplings, running on cut down Hornby 'Dowlais' chassis (current production, not a bad slow runner).  Am working on providing this loco with jackshaft drive.  Needs better brake detail. 5) Hornby ex-Dapol tooling 9-plank 21ton minerals, 3 off.  The moulded handbrake levers bother me with these wagons.  6) Airfix B set coaches cut-n-shut into ersatz brake 3rd and 3rd 60' bowenders.  Not happy with these, they look awful if the Hornby 57' suburbans are on the layout and a bit naff anyway.  Very much spare stock.

 

But I accept them on the layout, in the case of the Toad and the autotrailers because there is no alternative (ok, Comet do the A30, on the wanted list).  I like the Docafority, 'Cyclops', which has a lot of 1950s character and can be forgiven it a lot especially as it is not bothered by some of my rougher NCB track down at the back end of the colliery yard...  The A31 is due for a major refurbishement and removal/replacement of cast whitemetal detail in the interest of making an ersatz A10 out of it (the window pattern and type of panelling is similar) to run with my Diagram N when it arrives, there are photos showing N no.W 37 W running with A10 no.W 26 W for some time out of Tondu.  Getting a 1960s whitemetal lump to look the part next to a new Diagram N is going to be a bit of a challenge, though, and I'm dubious that I can  pull the stunt off,,,

 

But, while I live with and in some cases like these models, I'd replace them all in a heartbeat if better RTR models were available! 

 

For some time I ran a Hornby 2721, worked up as far as I could and with a Bachmatnn 57xx chassis, but the oversized bunker hanging off  the back got the better of me.  This is how this stuff gets you in the end, you think you can accept the inaccuracy, but it niggles.

 

Conclusions; I'm not into retrospective modelling, though I'd never condemn it if that's what floats your boat.  It has occasionally occurred to me while sitting out on the patio on sunny days that some of this stuff could form the basis of a setrack patio plank layout not to be taken too seriously, though...  By and large, current RTR toolings suit my purposes and I'm a) content with them and b) unable to produce anything better from kits or scratch. 

 

 

I totally get not wanting to mix hi-fi with retro unless you absolutely have to. I suppose my approach is to have ALL retro so there is a consistency of standard and appearance. I'm finding an early 1980s Mainline Peak is about the same in visual standard as a mid 1990s Lima Hoover so they look okay together and maintain the retro look. I'm sticking to Lima and Hornby coaches for the same reason.

(Btw I'm not against hi-fi and have quite a bit of it in store. I'm just trying to do something different now and be creative in a different way)

14 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It doubtless is, because when your nose is up against the trains, the illusion of reality is conveyed better if they’re hi-fi, but as I said above: it’s been inherent in the hobby since the outset, long before the main show in town was single-station exhibition layouts. Its in the DNA of the hobby to seek ever higher fidelity (interesting question as to what “the ultimate” in 4mm/ft might be; coal-fired live steam running on P4 track, if the laws of physics permit?).

 

 

 

The ultimate? How about a working 4mm shunting horse?

The strange thing is I've seen some amazingly modelled P4 layouts that look sterile - a bit like some of those Pre-Raphaelite landscape paintings that are photographic in detail but convey no feel or atmosphere.  That's why I think of retro modelling as more impressionistic - communicating an emotion, impression or feeling, often with a limited colour palette (for 1970s, grey, blue and browns).

I guess magazines have to promote new products to some degree - the problem comes when that excludes other approaches or discourages people on a tight budget.

I wonder if the drive towards ever greater detail is shaped by the sorts of small, single-station layouts and small exhibition layouts that tend to get built in the UK? If your layout is small and diorama-ish you can afford to lavish £50 on a single, highly detailed wagon (as you won't need many). If you are building an operation-centred basement empire with 30-car trains, you might be more willing to put up with that 1980s £4 Hornby wagon from a swap meet!

One American Model Railroader author pushed the "good enough" concept - decide what's good enough for your operational needs rather than lavish too much time or money on any single item. I like that idea and it is definitely influencing my retro modelling. 

Oh yes, I should have mentioned @Peter Kazmierczak great book on modern traction. It was so inspirational and I drooled over every image. I couldn't afford to buy it so had it out on loan from the library for most of my early teens. I was eventually bought a copy and still read it on a regular basis. If Peter is still on here: thank you so much!

33 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I can see a lot of merit in your idea @fezza, mainly because I'm probably doing something similar.  To an extent it's my natural instinct to fightback against the must-have-the-latest-of-everything mindset, whatever the hobby or pastime.

 

The vast majority of my excessive model collection - too much collecting, not enough modelling - was bought before 2000 and there is an abundance of 1980s Hornby/Lima/Mainline/Airfix.  Also in boxes are the detailing kits from the time (many no longer available) and spare bodies to practice painting and identity swaps, depending on what era I thought I might want to model at the time.  I was inspired by the RMs, MRCs, Model Trains etc of my youth in the 1980s and am still aspiring to do what Ian Futers, Monty Wells, Richard Gardner, @Peter Kazmierczak etc., of the era were doing with the RTR of the time.  Likewise I've loads of unmade Parkside wagon kits, part-built Airfix and Superquick buildings, awaiting time and space for the layout to put them on.

 

Obviously the basis of all of this is nostalgia.  When I read the current magazines suggesting we trade in all our old models for the new equivalents because they are so much better, I always think two things: (1) how convenient that would be for the magazine's advertisers if we spent £100 on locos instead of £20 on paint and detailing materials, and (2) it assumes our models are just objects without any sentimental value.  A lot of my new models in the 1980s were Christmas or birthday presents, while a lot was bought secondhand at the time; we weren't wealthy and Dad taught me well to hunt down a bargain.  I can remember so many examples of models purchased with my pocket money in a (probably long-vanished) shop on family holidays somewhere.  Replacing my Mainline Standard 4 which I've owned since about nine years old, with the latest Bachmann model, would bring no pleasure whatsoever (plus it would cost about five times as much).  Those old models, to those who must have the latest, are worthless; to me, they are priceless.

Yes, nostalgia and personal connections to models are so important. Sometimes it's almost too much. When I was about 11 my grandmother gave me a J72 for Christmas "so you'll remember me when I'm not here". It's still my favourite loco but I can't run it without feeling sad for the loss of my dear grandparents even after all these years.

Happily my HST, 37, Hymek and Royal Scot are still running from birthdays and Christmases long past. They should get a new lease of life now with the new project. And they'll always be better than any new £300 toy, however great Bachmann's latest products are....

For me a system is a layout of two or more stations where operations between the two are purposeful and as realistic as possible.  I think fiddle yards are allowed as most of the great US systems still have an offstage area.  So Buckingham Central and Fisher St/Victoria Bridge would both be systems, even if they are / were rather compact.

Another reason why systems have gone out of fashion is that the focus in the UK has moved to exhibitions where people can show off their skills to a wider audience.  These tend to focus on the visual WOW factor and the scenery rather than realistic operations between several places.  Systems are probably thought to be too large and difficult to exhibit, requiring complex routing systems and shunting that would slow down the procession of trains for the visitor.

For me, however, the best exhibition layouts are still those that try to operate realistically, even if they aren't actually systems - Ronsthorpe being one example.  Ronsthorpe was not 2mm finescale and used fairly basic scenery (lichen for bushes and cardboard for some buildings) but it always seemed more "realistic" than some 2mm finescale layouts where not much happened.  It was certainly one of the layouts that set me off in N gauge for about 20 years.

53 minutes ago, CKPR said:

I'm really taken with this topic as I've always been more concerned with atmosphere than absolute accuracy and I'm more inspired by models and layouts, especially systems built for operation. To put this into context, most of my modelling is pre-grouping, EM gauge and with a lot of very old fashioned scratchbuilding and having just turned 60, I guess I'm in the last generation of railway modellers who were inspitlred by Rev. Peter Denny's "Buckingham". I suppose I also remember when the standards of Pendon Museum were cutting edge and something to  aspire to rather than a mandatory blueprint !

Yes, irs interesting to think about what are the elements of railway atmosphere. For me in the BR blue era it's T shaped station lamps, blue BRUTE trolleys, engineers blue brick walls, brown discoloured ballast, bus stop station buildings, overgrown freight sidings with a random bauxite freight van, yellow BR road vans, station staff in BR peaked caps... And of course the colour palette is very subdued... browns and greys... the only red being the BR sign outside the station. All this is actually quite easy to model with simple materials.

So does this mean the much requested RES and Virgin 47s will be DCC sound only?

Interestingly when Buckingham Central was being built in the 1950s it was modelling the golden age of 40 years previous! So I suppose the golden age is always about 40years ago, when we were young!

I do, however, think there was a much greater variety of freight operation and freight vehicles in the late 70s- and far more loco hauled trains. I recently looked at a working timetable for Taunton in 1975 - over 90 per cent of passenger trains were loco hauled! There were even milk trains. That's good enough for me!

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Up until about WW2 model railways were all about operation, and most had barely any scenery, then the see-saw began to tip in favour of scenery.
 

If you look at the best of 50s and 60s layouts they seemed to have a good balance between operation and scenery, with people using the new, smaller scales to create “system” layouts to decently high standards on both axes. After that, things seem to have moved progressively in favour of “the setting”, away from operation, I think partly because of space constraints coupled with a desire for photo-realism, and partly because you can’t any longer pop down to the nearest station and see operation happening ….. no semaphore signals, no level crossing gates, not the slightest ghost of any shunting ….
 

So, we arrive at a place where the boundary between ‘model railway layout’ and ‘scenic diorama incorporating railway features’ becomes almost invisible. A massive generalisation, of course, but the see-saw has definitely risen at one end and fallen at the other. 

Yes, it's odd in a way because in the US operation is still a big thing. Perhaps that's because shortlines and wagonload traffic are still prevalent there.

However accurate operation is probably easier than ever now in the UK given almost every major  mainline loco or DMU is available in some form or other.

I wonder if the lack of operational potential is one reason why many layouts have a short life in the UK. The exceptions, like Ronsthorpe seem to be the ones with the greatest operational potential.

The late 1970s and early 1980s was a golden era for operation - block freight, wagonload freight, containerised freight, newspaper traffic and mail - often passing through traditional track layouts and semaphore signals. And sprinterisation hadn't been thought of!

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Yes, yes, yes.

 

I 'dropped out' of the temple of model railway excellence over 40 years past, on realising that scenic treament is pointless,  (you cannot operate it) didn't want to run the Loco carriage and wagon works, (that's a separate department on the real thing) because what interested me most was the impression that timetable operations produce. Experienced modellers told me I was mad.

 

I have prototype track formations, representative trains for the area and period of interest, and run them on schedule: joy unbounded! If there isn't a model available of a vehicle, I use a 'place holder' that's the best approximation, whether RTR or cobbled together.

 

Every now and again a little paint is applied to imprive appearance, when my personal artistic impulse kicks in for a couple of hours annually. But most of the time I am operating on a layout that enables all the required movements to be performed realistically. (Many years ago a French friend told me that this is a 'trainodrome'.)

Yes, I find it odd that people produce beautifully scenery, but then have unrealistic track layouts and run very random trains! Each to their own, but I'd rather have more impressionistic scenery and trains that reflect the period running to a timetable. Perhaps this is because I grew up on Cyril Freezer track plans and essays on operation from the early 1980s.  There seem to be very few essays on operation in railway modelling magazines these days.

Was operation was more of a 'thing' in the past?  I particularly remember the Fisher Street to Victoria Bridge layout (around 1985?) that was nothing special scenically but had realistic catenary and interlocked signalling  based on contemporary BR practice, together with clear purposeful operation.  Does anyone else remember this?  The simple engineers blue brick-paper walls seemed to ooze atmosphere (Kings Cross loco, southern approach to Leicester London Road or BNS) without any great scenic elaboration.

I suppose I'm also a bit uncomfortable with the sort of modelling where there is a rush to buy the latest expensive thing.  Of course, people are perfectly entitled to spend their hard-earned money in any way they wish.  But I don't think it is for me anymore. I'm now in search of something a bit different - something that creates a different impression and brings back memories of older products that we loved many years ago, while still producing an interesting, operational model railway.

7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Maybe you need to post in the vintage/collectable sub-forum, because there are people there who know everything ever made.

 

But, if you are a Railway Modeller subscriber, have a look at reviews and adverts in the archived back-numbers. Ratio were to my recollection the main source used by serious chaps in the 1980s, but I think their range may not have been as wide as today, plus there were providers of MAS such as Eckon.

I've actually got piles of mice- nibbled RMs in the depths of the garage. Time to dig them out! Thanks I remember Eckon - I was trying to remember their name. I'm sure I've got some in deep store somewhere. They are quite chunky and just the thing for this project 

I'll have a look at TCS - sounds interesting.

I'm hoping to pick up a few bits at Warley, although last time I went I felt most stalls were catering for the premium end of the market, which is understandable I suppose.

Anyone have any recommendations for "retro signals"? I've got some Hornby, but would like some variety. 

Yes, I also think there's a lot of pleasure to be had in "rescuing" (preserving?) old models from the 1980s. So many unboxed items seem to be regarded as landfill by  modellers and dealers alike so they are readily available everywhere. It's nice to give these once-treasured items new life.

Somehow seeing my badly-weathered Hornby Rat wobbling around brings back childhood memories of both the real thing and my youth, a time when I first discovered the magic of modelling. And it only cost me £25...

14 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Shoppers have never caused me any issues with getting in, out or parked. Unless you mean Ikea, which is at the far side of Asda?

 

NEC events always draw complaints of cost too. You need a bus to get to the venue itself from most of its car parks anyway.

That is not very different from parking at the Bowl & getting a bus in from there.

Tip for Warley - Just park at the station for the NEC - cheaper and next to the venue.

I think it's a real shame that GETS is blighted by the venue. It's potentially a great showcase for the hobby this year. I think I'll swerve it too - waiting for park and ride and getting caught up in stationary football traffic is not my idea of fun.

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I would imagine like Wigan the show is booked before the football match dates are set, it's a lottery for the organisers.

 

GETS has been on a few years, it's got lucky so far, Wigan managed and it had no alternative car park to use.

You're probably right mate - but the fact it's a lottery doesn't make it a great venue in my view. I lot of people I know are going to this as their one show of the year and it's a shame if it ends up being all a bit chaotic.

Yes, the whole thing seems a bit of a cock-up. With Pete Waterman's layout, this is the most anticipated event of the year yet there is nowhere to park nearby and it is very doubtful a vintage bus service will be able to cope with the numbers who want to attend. (And not everyone can walk -the average age of modellers is probably over 60 these days!)

Even when there is no football it's a battle with weekend shoppers to get to and from the venue. Maybe they should look to the NEC next year if they want to put on a major national event?

How many vintage buses have they got? Not sure how they'll get everyone from the free car park to the venue at 10am as this is likely to be a very busy show....

Can you park elsewhere nearby and walk to the venue?

Transit grease seems a particular problem on small steam and diesel locos. It seems to become sticky under certain conditions and damages electrical connectivity. Too much grease/ oil seems more of a problem than too little in N gauge.

All my n gauge short wheelbase stock seems to run better on Kato than Peco and Kato  generally needs less cleaning. Kato track is a bit ugly but it's very good if you are a newcomer or not too obsessed with scale fidelity. I don't use Kato controllers though - it has to be Gaugemaster.

On 12/09/2023 at 20:58, 4firstimes said:

The wait for the Dapol light weight West Country/Battle of Britain unrebuilt “Spam Can” is showing light at the end of the tunnel. This must have been one of the longest waits in the history of developing N Gauge models , even if the schedule is maintained for the 4 quarter of 2024. I’ll cross my fingers in hope !
When originally announced in 2012 the estimate was around £120. Receiving an email today announcing the milestone and the milestone of prices for the different configurations, a double intake of breath. There has been rumours of what the cost of new models will be in the future. I accept quality has a price; I just hope the manufacturers quality control is going to match the new cost and not like the plagues of inferior models. Perhaps I should  not have been reading  my emails during a  work meeting. The suggested  retail price; enough to make me gulp  and distract me from the meeting in hand. I understand the mechanics of supply and demand,  raise the standards and quality and we are now seeing a price range the credit card was previously locked in the wallet and the key lost. 

Yes at around  £220 it will be significantly more expensive than the excellent Farish N class. I am going to expect something really  exceptional for that price. After years of poor Dapol quality control in N, I will wait for the reviews 

1 hour ago, Ed-farms said:

 

I did wonder if TT was responsible for this bumper N gauge full stop. Is "Little Johnny" and his parents going to their local shop to buy TT but found it not available and discovered N gauge instead? The announcements this year have seen a major swing towards N gauge.

Possibly, although it may just be queued production schedules. After a famine there is often a feast in N gauge. That can cause its own problems as I know I can't afford all the stuff at the same time.so sales may suffer.

I think TT is dead in the water. There is very little available, you can't see it in shops and it runs poorly compared to 00 and N. Hornby have spilt it very badly.

The 158s are very welcome - the GWR one looks particularly superb (Although whether it is good value is a moot point when the excellent but very niche Arnold FS Aln 668 has just come out at £212... and a lot of Farish 150s are still stuck to the shelves.)

I would also welcome more news on the Peak as well as the Virgin 47 - the latter seems to have been in the catalogue forever.

I'd love to see more pictures of progress if you are willing to share. This is on my list of all-time favourite layouts and it is great to see some of Iain Rice's inspirational work being preserved and reused.