DCB

So why do some trains have left hand drive engines driving on the left.  I asked an ex WR fireman and he shrugged his shoulders   Apparently as far as I can tell GWR drivers used to keep their swords in a scabbard on their left as they were right handed which made it easy to draw their sword when the espied an adversary.
Manty other companies  drivers drove on the left to keep well away from sword wielding GWR drivers approaching from the other direction.    Like wise many pre WW2 French Bugatti cars were Right Hand drive yet they  drove on the right. 

5 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

For me it is the extreme curves that exist in roundy layouts that spoil it.  But essential if you want to watch the trains go by......  Out and back layouts are more realistic but limited by the run length - it's a choice only you can make......

That's a criticism of Table layouts, ones with "A Baseboard" as seen from inside its not obvious how tight the curves are.  My loft is / was around 8 or 9 ft by 13 usable at 3ft above floor and the roof slope causes problems.   One side the baseboard is around  1 ft wide due to where the loft hatch is, the other 4ft in places.  On  the 1ft side my head is uncomfortably close to the roof.   Its 00 and horribly over complicated.   Work stopped around 20 years ago,  it has done service as a test track, it holds 10 coaches and 22 wagons in each of 3 storage loops and has 3 very long sidings (8ft plus) and a short one.    The current shed layout 7ft 6" wide inside has a 2ft 6" operating well which is 6" too narrow, even with all controls on a level below the track work.  The shed is a nominal 8ft wide and we didn't realise it was 7ft 6" inside until design was complete and we slimmed down the operating well to compensate.
I would not touch TT 120 with a barge pole, it's Hornby Dublo 3 rail  over again, limited range, 4 express engines , Goods engine, 2-6-4 and 0-6-2 tanks were the entire steam range 35 years after initial launch, or Triang TT...     If the range increases then fine, but Hornby missed a trick by  not going 1;100   TT3 and in your space I would go for N gauge where you can get a decent range of stock and not be reliant on Hornby staying in business.

60 to 90 minutes.    Gosh.  Last time I tried to do that son and heirs boss rang " Er can you start at 5 am someone's gone sick."  Swift end of session, but not before Grange had derailed and suffered what transpired to be terminal damage and Dunster Castle found a brand new track defect which make the bogie hit the mainframe.  Still by reducing prototype  30 minute gaps between trains to 30 seconds we shifted quite a few trains.    Adrian Vaughns "Signalmans Twilight"  I think its twilight, has some fascinating detail of GW mainline power Mon - Fri with several trains having the same loco day after day yet others have different locos and different classes every  day.
I try to never run the same gods twice, different locos and stock re sorted to 17 or 19 from a pool of 60 or so at marshalling sidings,  terminus and storage, yet the Fish never changes nor does the Milk but its  6MT (County or Castle) job up to London at 60 mph and a 4MT ( 43XX Manor std 4 but usually a Hall) back limited to 45mph (40?) empty,   The rosters bring the 6MT back on Parcels / Newspapers  and the  4MT on Parcels ECS,

On 03/05/2024 at 08:28, PaulG said:

 

For my Colchester layout, I've reduced the track centres to minimum rolling stock clearance.

 

Most of the points are hand built, but I have cut a few PECO bullhead points to fit and also reduced the angle of the point successfully. A couple of photos. 

 

I wouldn't claim to be the greatest modeller, but all my stock run with no problems through the altered PECO bullhead points even though I have been critized on FB for running stock too fast🙄😁

 

Paul

Looks really good.   Many "Serious" modellers run far slower than scale speed, which is sort of bizarre .  With steam the revs per minute of the wheels does not scale so 00 should run 1:76th of full size speed. I remember an exhibition where old dudderers were crawling expresses around at a scale 25mph and when they fancied a cup of tea a young lad took over started running them at running nearer 60.  Suddenly it came alive as trains arrived with little warning and flashed past, just like at the lineside at my favourite spotting place  Dawlish, which I think has a 60 mph limit...
I'm a big fan of near scale track centres, but the biggest benefit comes with set track, getting the width and length of crossovers down to save space.  I find most 00 is under 40mm wide, but that is not 20mm each side of the centre line. 

Love the point rodding...

One thing which gets missed is viewing points,  Heritage power units, both DC pre 1980 and DCC pre 2022 tend to be desk based  giving one sitting or standing position for the operator, that can be exploited with perspective modelling.   Modern DCC mobile phone based, and wander lead DC means you can wander at will around watching from various view points and indeed operating points manually.    The best view points on our railway are only possible using a small camera, either stills or video jammed in a corner, but some pretty good ones are looking along the terminus approach  and the curve where the line swings away from the wall towards the main panel approaching the terminus where the trains are viewed head on.    Just a thought. 

Generally a loft layout is the type with central operating well and round the 4 walls or linear with a long thin end to end layout with operating space to one side.    My first one 62 years ago had a solid 6 X 4 board against the  roof slope and I had to climb on to it if trains stalled  at the far side.
"Table" solid baseboard 6X4 etc layouts are not a good use of loft space.

An unobstructed space of 6 X 12 is relatively rare in a loft.    Mine has about  8 X 9  between the supports which reach up  to brace the roof  at around 3ft 6" above the floor, so that was  my Datum, there was 3ft  beyond the supports one end and 1ft the other end so about 12  X  9 at waist height  coming in to around  12 X 7 or 12 X 6  which  made working at the back awkward.    It was  never finished apart from 4 storage loops and 4 long sidings off a single track oval which was very useful for running in locos. and hiding many cubic feet of junk
It was very difficult to access,  Up a retractable loft ladder which eft a big hole to fall down in the middle of the operating area, or I could take away the ladder and be trapped when the trap door was lowered.   It  was  noisy for people downstairs ,  un usable  when people , My son mainly were sleeping.
I think something like "Sams Trains"  floor level "layout . or   low level 12" or 18" above floor  Level  layouts would be worth considering if your loft is like Sams'

1 hour ago, DaveF said:

I almost always run my O gauge branch line terminus to a timetable worked out from the times of real trains at what would have been the junction if the line existed.  Otherwise it can get boring.  The wagons movements are organised using playing cards.

I do have a timetabel for my Swiss n gauge layout but as that has a continuous run I sometimes just run each train in turn from the hidden loops/sidings, depending on how much time I have.

In both cases derailments etc are quite rare.

 

David

I have often seen the playing card system mentioned but have never worked out how you relate a card to a wagon.
When I operate "Ugleigh" the BLT outside down the garden I leave the incoming train in the platform, then I pull out all the wagons which are in the sidings and need to be taken away,  back them on to the brake van then put the incoming wagons in the yard in the best available places for loading or unloading.  One or two will have arrived and need to return as the intermediate station(s) can only be shunted by down trains. Then the train departs hopefully before the passenger is due as the branch is one engine in steam.    What role do playing cards play? Deciding which ones go/stay?

I actually set aside an hour this evening for  a running session,  no maintenance allowed, which was curtailed by problems after about 35 minutes.
Ran an originating Up goods with a Crab,  Up through goods with an 8F 48475, . Terminating Down goods with Hagley Hall,  down through passenger with a Hymek,  Up  Passenger and Parcels  with 47XX blocking P1 for half an hour loading parcels,  Up XP with Devizes Castle. Down XP with Glos Rgt Castle stopping at P3 and  taking  Manobier Castle as pilot up bank, Pilot detached outside terminus to save platform space , Up Goods with 9F had caught the XP  Being held outside the station by East Box while the pilot was attached to the XP before stopping on the through road before taking 81XX banker up Bank.   14XX ran auto train down main line to Middleton Basset and return.  81XX and Tender first Manobier Castle returned coupled together, 81XX to Banker siding, Castle to MPD,     Hall goods shunted by 77XX Goods yard pilot and 77XX Down yard pilot to release Hall to loco spur,   77XX removed breakdown crane from road 2 to breakdown siding on Up side and return. 4566  carriage pilot came across to return brake van to Marshalling yard and return to Up side.  finally  Castle Sir Edward Elgar hauled Up XP from terminus which de railed on the upper lift out which has warped.   Working a bit like a one armed paper hanger, using 5 different controllers, often driving two train at once and two locos on one train off one controller I ended up with a lot of shunting to do and only 25% of the locos on the layout actually moved.   Despite being an oval no train went right round more than once.  Nothing ran on the branch as it was raining!   And this is DC  Just wondering how others operate

I have never had any luck with fold up chassis but that looks like an absolute B*****  with two folds needing to be made simultaneously front and rear with a gap between. I would use a very stout 12" steel ruler clamped to the brass sheet to make the bend around.  The second side bend is going to be really awkward.  It's very pretty but is it  a basis for a working loco?  

In 2024 with 5 volt power supply from USBs an industry standard it makes no sense to power LEDs from a "12 volt" supply Many "12 volt" supplies deliver well over 12 volts off load over 20 in many situations.  For anything but blue and white I use 3 volt power supplies and resistors to adjust the brightness. of signal lamps,  That way the resistors run cool. dissipating maybe 20% of the load not 90%. I have seen badly scorched card buildings where resistors have run very hot inside them.   Heritage White and Blue will not light on 3 volts.   Heritage red need about 30% of the current of Heritage Green for similar brightness.
If you must use 12 volts step the voltage down through a number of 1amp diodes in series rather than by resistors as it gives a much more stable voltage much less dependent on the number of LEDs in circuit.  

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

I, and many others from comments I’ve read, started off down the DCC road by using our then current DC layout, swapping out the DC controller for the DCC one, and leaving all the section switches on. I still wire the track in the same way now but have eliminated the switches.

Bob

Why eliminate the switches.   It makes more sense to leave the switches so on start up you can add extra locos and lighted coaches to the load by stages   Switches with 1 amp breakers in series would allow a straight forward  change from DC to DCC.   My DC layout has Power  Districts, I now realise nearly 40 years after wiring it.    Up Up Main, Down Main, Up sdgs, Down Sdgs, Loco depot, Branch, Hidden sidings,  all switchable between several controllers and operating positions and all subdivided by  isolated sections.       As the layout is  24 ft long X 8ft plus a 30 foot branch fault finding would be impossible  without the power district switches.   With DCC my Horny Q1 would have shut the whole layout down when it dd its party trick of shorting out randomly,  As it is the switches isolate the fault to easily identify  which area of the layout  the fault has occurred at.     Mine also has isolating points,   With DCC non isolating points a derailment  short anywhere  on the layout, sidings  hidden in loco sheds etc, loco running into wrongly set point etc  could stop the layout completely , or stop it powering up.  Separating point power from  traction power is  essential.  for reliable operation.     People falsely claim DCC has less wiring

 than DC.    That was only true with low power relying on fish plates two wires to the track, point motors, signals etc plugged in .   But fishplates can't conduct much more than 2 amps and point blades 1 amp so people needed droppers and  As soon as "Droppers" and ""Buses" are used the reverse is the case.  adding huge numbers of soldered joints for a smaller number of DC Feeds.    Many 1970s layout plans had 3 (Three) feeds for the entire  8 X 4 

On 21/04/2024 at 09:21, Nigelcliffe said:

 

If you've got a lot of locos,  you either had deep pockets, or the person you inherited them from had deep pockets.....   

 

Most people have far too many locos.  One regularly hears of people with 50 or 100 locos.  How many of them actually get run ?  How often ?    There's nothing wrong with a hobby of "collecting", but don't use the shelf-collection to put down someone else' interest in running.   

Or you have been collecting and building locos for 60 years.  Quite a few of mine alternate between display cabinet and layout,  but last  count there were 60 on the layout, many Hornby Dublo and over 60 years old doing the  heavy  work which 2000  era Horny can't take on so just look pretty.   Though to be fair K's kit built locos are gradually replacing more recent  iterations. so I don't have the time to convert locos to DCC  if I actually want to have time to run trains .

The OP lists his  P.D rights but they do vary from area, conservation areas often don't have p.d and some houses have had P.D removed as part of the original permission.

Our railway shed is purpose built 24 X 8, wood, insulated,  central heated , has lasted 40 years and has subsidence issues.  The railway is 00

The garden shed is a lot younger, lists a bit its on paving stones has not subsided but not suitable for a railway. Just not robust  enough.   A  Stable would be better, we put a 3 bay stable up for our Parish Council store, and lined out and insulated would make a great railway shed 
 16 X9  (8X4.5 in oo speak) is a bit small for a railway.  A lot of old modellers in 0 had the station in the shed and a garden railway, Some covered the outside lines for year round running and some ran from shed to shed,   16ft station and line running outside to do a 180 and come back in, or even a 180 both ends  would work well.    Grab some 1960s / 70s Railway Modeller and Model Railway constructor mags for inspiration

On 09/04/2024 at 15:25, The Johnster said:

Quite, unless there's something else going on to provide some action.  But a few seconds, perhaps five or so with the loco stopped, to show that the operator is aware of the procedure, makes a huge difference.  I will certainly walk away from any layout where the loco sets back on to the stock and unceremoniously pushes it towards the buffers (fine with goods shunting of course), though.  In reality, the stock is left with a handbrake and the vacuum brakes hard on, so the move is physically impossible.

 

One would not perhaps expect it on overtly train-set layouts without scale pretensions, or Lego and such; fair enough, but it has spoiled the effect for me on some otherwise superb layouts, including P4 examples.  Of course, there is no reason that I should assume that layout operators, especially in this day and age, are conversant with traditional railway operating procedures, but the information is out there, and the procedures can be observed on heritage railways, and I think it is reasonable to expect a grounding in the basics. 

 

I could go off on a rant about standards of driving and operation at shows, but will restrain myself for now...  Much of the problem is that layouts are only erected to be operated at shows, and the operators are thrown in at the deep end with no experience of operating the layout, no 'route knowledge'.  I reccomend operating sessions to train them up, as well as to check the layout for problems before going to the show, but this can be a problem for large club layouts.  Ideally, in a perfect world where operation is correctly prototypical, one would need almost as many people working a station as the real thing did, see Borchester Market...

I find it astonishing that brakes on coaching stock are not standard for DCC layouts.  You can just about couple up a 1950s 3 rail Hornby Dublo Duchess to a rake of 3 rail metal wheel coaches without moving them but it seems completely impossible with 2020 era models, the whole train moves before the coupling couples! 
The number of operators is relevant, it should be possible for several operators to work a medium size "Buckingham" or even "Marylebone" Terminus with DCC  pilot driver, main line driver(s) signalman.
Then again with decent signalling even a BLT can come alive with little action, a few block bells clanging, the signals coming off, train arriving, signals going back.  loco setting stock back so it can use the loop, running round setting back onto the stock and then fast forward 2 hours. Signals off, train starts train entering section.    Train disappears into hidden sidings. and wait for someone else to look interested.  And then the daily goods OK the 20 times daily goods at an exhibition sorting wagons to be left from out going.   It would look a lot better than "Flashburton / Moronampstead" with a Manor on 2 coaches, a Dean goods in primer on shed and a Terrier tank as station pilot,

Some companies seem remarkably stupid in failing to realise a model in their livery can be  a valuable free advertisement for them.   Unless it is a model of a Tesla with a smoke unit or similar.
However watching the Horizon Scandal rather shows stupidity is not the preserve of the less intelligent, but is manifest in some of the most intelligent and  indeed highly qualified individuals in society. 

Bere Alston to Tavistock would be interesting, especially the Tavistock end high on the hill above the town.    BR connection available at Bere Alston. 

25 minutes ago, Hogan22 said:

The power supply I’m using for this setup is a 16v ac to dc adapter power supply ( like a power cable from a DC controller).
 

Good to know a dmm wouldn’t really be able to measure the volts going from operating switch to point motor (after switching).
 

that means the issue would likely be the tension of the turnout springs right?

I wouldn't weaken the springs, sliding the holder back in its clip on some points can fine tune the tension but too weak and fine flanges will find the gap between blade and stock rail and split the  points.

The Peco motors are a bit marginal throwing  Peco points. at the best of times,  12 volts DC which is effectively, 16 volts AC rectified is not enough,in my experience.   My first thought would be more volts, my Duette delivers around 21 volts  DC off load on a nominal 12 volt output  some other 12 volt controllers deliver  anything between  12 and 24 volts off load and a capacitor will charge towards this off load figure.

Are the SPDT switches all left off.   unless one s being thrown?  because any left on will drain the capacitor.

It might be worth ensuring the blades are free to move?  You shouldn't feel the motor when changing a point manually, if you can its's out of alignment or gummed up.  
I don't like under track direct point mounted point motors as they get crud in.  I prefer the bell crank system or wire in tube from a horizontal motor.  

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

I don't think you'll be getting any spares for these on the website, they haven't made them for half a century!

Maybe that is a possible  revenue stream for Hornby, spares for older models , which seem to last for 50-70 years  even if their recent efforts don't.

The Nellie/Polly/Connie locos seemed to start with a black loco with solid non  see through wheels a  steel strip chassis with Mazak spacers rivetted in, unique I believe for Hornby and an X04 motor, 2 start worm small worm wheel (same as transcon )  Later they received separate steel tyres and much later shiny plated tyres.  Some plated tyre ones have a huge dome and some have a Can motor similar to contemporary Scalextric cars, not as good as an X04 similar  but not the same as 101 smokey Joe etc..  The Romfrord 30/40/60:1 gear sets fit the chassis and X04 as does the Triang TT single start worm for slower sub 100MPH top speed.

Its a pretty little thing but could not be built as a full size loco as the firebox would hit the crank axle and the connecting rods would foul the leading axle .  It needs outside cylinders and ideally outside valve gear  unless the drive was from the front axle a la Dolgoch I am planning stretched 2-4-0T versions which would have leading axle drive from inside cylinders for my 5 X 2   00 gauge layout. and maybe a non stretched outside cyl 0-6-0T version.

3 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Smoke and steam don’t scale down - all I see is ‘Michael Bentines Potty Time’. Also wonder what the long term effects of water based emissions will have on electrical components around the layout and card structures.  

Maybe vape oil might work, if the cars full of vape fumes are anything to go by

4 hours ago, ColinB said:

On non Hornby models firebox glow is controlled by a decoder port, but currently nobody writes software that synchronizes the decoder output with the shovelling sound. I am sure it can be done.

Has anyone ever heard a shoveling sound from an actual steam loco actually in steam let alone actually running?  The sound of shovelling precedes the glow of  the door opening  when working hard when the glow is more a brilliant flash. This weekend recording locos on the NYMR P3 ( J27?)  Std4 Tank and Black 5 shows the background  hiss of boiling water is  the dominant sound of a steam locomotive, the  hiss of escaping injector steam, steam leaks sizzling safety valves.  To be fair they don't sound anything like any DCC sound, but that's because the sound is synchronised with loco speed, where the pulses should be synchronised with wheel speed and the volume by the operator, depending on whether accelerating, pulling hard, coasting or just powering along gently.

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

Perhaps you would be better off explaining why you don't think that DCC can do such a thing?

 

Just about any DCC set up has a 'Master' unit for want of a better term, to provide a command station, an interface if you like. Then you can use 1 or more controllers to actually control the trains, by dialling up their address - one per operator is best, although there are plenty of dual units too.

They don't even need to be identical units, as DCC is largely an industry standard with many suppliers.

 

I suspect that you believe that DCC is still the original Zero 1 or the Airfix system, with the limitations of such legacy systems.

It's the interface issue.  

But the real thing which irritates me is the  unrealistic operation DCC enthusiasts think is good. Full size Trains can't creep for extended periods unless Slow speed fitted for MGR operations , but they can stop to the nearest 6" or less so coaches never move when couping up.
I am working on sound,  So many  sound locos chuff like they are pulling 400 tons when running light.   Real ones usually give 4 or 8 chuffs then coast.

But its the  interface.  I want a speed control knob  Hand held  one handed.  ideally wireless.  Everything else can be on the console,  Whistle button would be nice 

8 hours ago, kevinlms said:

I don't see why ANY DCC system can't do that. Use one controller to operate the train loco and a 2nd controller to operate the banker - DO NOT consist them.

 

As always, your statements suggest that basic DCC functions are harder than they really are.

Please  give  one example of a suitable controller or pair of controllers ,  where two  operators can operate Railway traction  similar to two cars being operated  on the same lane of a Scalextric Digital track.    

My first train was Hornby Dublo 3 rail and I had two Duchesses and an  0-6-2 tank    The tank would just haul all my 17 (?)  wagons around my not exactly level layout at a crawl but stopped dead if it slipped,  very realistic.   The opposite to most RTR where a burst of wheel slip  gets a stalled train underway again.
What I want from DCC is a capability for me to drive the train engine and my son drive the banker independently, rather than to consist them.  I  am pretty sure we could do it with Scalextric  DCC Hand throttles  but I'm not aware of any  Model railway DCC  equipment  giving that sort of immediacy of response.

Someone could get a lot of free publicity  for naming a loco inappropriately.   Or a gasp at an exhibition when it or even 7930  "That's Hall" appears.   They say you can't rewrite history but we modellers can.   70014 painted name Iron Duck anyone?    My layout has posters for Harry Markle and Anton Deck appearing at the local theatre

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

So are you advocating the modelling of wheelslip? 

 

Presumably could be achieved by intentionally mismatching the speed of a powered loco to the speed of a powered tender under DCC.

Is there a way of dynamically adjusting the characteristics of separate mechanisms in a consist, so that they run in sync at speed but not on starting?

There is something about a loco drive  steamer easing away with just a hint of a slip , or judging how much wellie you can give it without excess slipping  which the clunky Railway DCC does not fit well with.  Its not a DCC issue, Scalextric  DCC hand throttles are great, but no one seems to make a decent real time speed control for railways.
I keep planning something I call "Protoslip" for a Bullied where the drive is shared between a heavy tender and a light loco powered from the sae motor with a differential so it the drivers slip the tender loses power.  
The gulf berween whats possible with DCC and what the trade churns out is well sad.
The Tender drive shown has traction tyres.   I banned them because they make the tracks so filthy

My layout has hardboard projecting above the baseboard surface  to stop stock falling  off so leaning on it is painful.

Leaning on an exhibition layout is sheer bad manners, why it might damage the static grass or fencing which should like the railway boundary!