coline33

Now an update.   Brand new munitions arrived, painted and loaded on to the four of the six wagons shown.   There is a further one-end plank which completes my flat wagon fleet.   The second wagon from the left is a four-end plank with the top planks removed to make one of those with three each end.   In the foreground are my present alternative loads. 

If not aware but still modelling 009 RNAD railways, you are welcome on "009 RNAD wagons".   HappyChappie has contributed and shortly I hope to have images of further new munitions loads and another Hunslet version.

43 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Hope that it is not the Corgi one.

ABS did a nice kit for the one preserved by the LT Museum and kept at Acton.

I think that the kit may now be available from KW Trams.

 

All the best

Ray

 

P.S. Hope that you are keeping well Colin. Might bump into you somewhere this year.

P.P.S. See you tonight Tony ?

The ABS Mercury is still listed in the ABS range on KW Trams website.

What is an interesting question is the need to have a tower wagon on an all conduit layout!   In reality Brixton Hill depot with its overhead wiring this had to be maintained.   Now the Streatham to Purley overhead was maintained after 1935 by the trolleybus OLE team at Sutton depot.   So they could have done what little was needed at Brixton Hill.   But down the road in Brixton started two sections of overhead operation.   More likely that the team responsible for these looked after Brixton Hill - so where were they based?

Now here is a challenge!!!   Roger Tuke has permitted his views of Breakdown Tender 176K he has made for the T&LRS Bridge Street layout, to be shown here.   The crane has to be completed with its hawsers and hook.   The wheel on the crane top is not the spare wheel!!!   The spare wheel can be see inside the canopy in the offside view.  176K often tendered on the Streatham routes.   That just leaves 173K to 175K to be modelled in similar condition.   177K is similar but also has the overhead line tower added.   Who will step up to the mark?

48 minutes ago, happyChappy said:

That's great and has the basic flavour of an RNAD depot. I like the continuous run aspect built into it. What sort of era are you setting your layout in?

 

My layout is based on Dinton, located on the opposite side of Salisbury from Dean Hill. Dinton was Air ministry rather than RNAD but much of the rolling stock was common to both. Even today at Dinton Business Park the tracks are still visible where they were inset in roadways (e.g photo on page 45 of the book you mention). The layout was designed to fit into one of those 'Really Useful' plastic storage boxes so is very compact and is basically a 'U' shaped end-to-end. One side of the layout has the exchange shed based on those at Chilmark and the other side an underground storage magazine like those in Dinton woods. One day I'll join the ends of the 'U' with a fiddle yard to make it a continuous run.

Thanks.   There is no era at West Dean it just gets what comes along!!!   I have ordered a couple more 393175s at the lowest price I can find (the last two!) and with the original Bachmann batch selling out with prices already up by almost £5 a wagon.   I had looked at West Country military lines years ago and suggested to Hornby that they do a MoD Sentinel but nothing further heard.   The continuous run was caused by having too many Peco Setrack points unused!   With the tracks at both ends going to go into the underground magazines to reach the fiddle yard means that, when I have added a Bachmann Baguley (pre-ordered) to my Hunslet, one will go in one end loaded and come out the other end loaded whilst the other loco does the reverse with an empty train.   I hate having to put wagons back on 009 track!!!   The SG is cosmetic but I do have a Hornby WD Ruston to add when necessary.

Now Dinton sounds interesting so look forward to any views.   How do you get on shunting at either ends?

Sorry, that view of WD was poor so herewith the view from the other end.

3 minutes ago, happyChappy said:

Yes, and they look great. Nice and colourful. Any more thoughts on your Dean Hill layout ideas?

 

The MOD also had a fairly large number of Hudson bogie flat wagons with removable ends. Short and long versions were produced which Bachmann may like to consider for future models. I'm going a bit off-topic here but here's a pic of my rendition of the shorter version using Peco bogies.

16 minutes ago, happyChappy said:

Yes, and they look great. Nice and colourful. Any more thoughts on your Dean Hill layout ideas?

 

The MOD also had a fairly large number of Hudson bogie flat wagons with removable ends. Short and long versions were produced which Bachmann may like to consider for future models. I'm going a bit off-topic here but here's a pic of my rendition of the shorter version using Peco bogies.

Thank you, that has mademe another Happy Chappie and my day to know there is someone else active in this universe!   I attach a view of West Deanin its infancy.   Now that the cardboard base is down I am on to constructing the hillside in cardboard to stengthen the bases.   A balsawood road will strengthen those sections not covered by the hillside.   Watch this space for the reintroduction of bombs and bomb-racks to fit Bachmanns and another Dean Hill Hunslet (without the air cylinders).   My 'bible' for RNAD railways is "MOD Railways" by Michael Hitchen (Amberley Press).   95 pages packed with colour photos of which 88 are taken at Dean Hill and appears comprehensive of the DH rolling stock - so very much recommended.   Look forward to seeing more photos of this and other peoples' RNAD layouts.   

My Bachmann flat wagons now loaded.   Is there any one still with this thread to be interested?

16 minutes ago, thirty2a said:

Yes, I saw this on the TLRS Facebook site and it is one of many we have of traffic congestion on Blackfriars Bridge in LPTB/LTE tram days.   Note the first tram seen going northbound is an E class on 26 to Kew Bridge and beyond an E/1 with Alpax replacement top deck on 14 to Wimbledon via Wandsworth.   Both these trams will continue along the Embankment over Westminster Bridge to Vauxhall where the 14 will reach Wandsworth via Nine Elms and the 26 via Clapham Junction.

16 minutes ago, wagonbasher said:

Is the main thrust of the police complaint / objections around road safety?   I suppose there are a lot of things we take for granted that didn’t exist then, traffic control at junctions, road crossings for pedestrians, rules around rights of way and speed limits.

 

where there limits on early electric tram car speeds as there had been with steam.

 

Andy

Yes, Andy, it was a very different world before WW1 than it was after.   The non-inustrial police forces as we know them only commenced in Vixtorian times and they were still at its end trying to take full control of the public in many ways.   Alcohol effects, ruly behaviour were common place as people left the fields in droves to live and work in towns.   The police were only just settling down to the click-clock of hooves when the electric tram and combustion engined machines came along.   Through the 19th century public transport, first omnibus then tram only stoppedin town at public houses!   The provision of tram stops came first but police wanted numbers limited to three otherwise they foresaw a riot.   For the LCC to have tram shelters sent the police mad!   Speed of all vehicles was in the hands of the Board of Trade which was a vast single body out of its depth as the manner of Trade had mushroomed.   The BoT set all tram speed limits on every section of track but they were greater than the police felt they could control.   There was great friction between the Met Police and the LCC over how to develope London and control it.   Some police objection was obvious such as control and effectiveness of braking especially on coupled cars.   This never went away after WW1 and speed and innovation became a greater problem for the police to accept.   Creating the Ministry of Transport got to many of the transport operators concerns over police objections but went on to create further problems for transport operators which helped the police in their general dislike of trams.   But this was a problem not just in the UK but also in the world.   Recently the EU tried to limit tram speeds on reserved tracks to be the same for that on the parallel roads.   Like the past it was much due to personal frustration of car drivers including police stuck on congested roads having tram after tram overtaking them.

In London  after WW1 watch the antics of Superintendent Bassom of the Met. trying to control the whole of London's transport!   You have taken on an interesting take reading of the effects of the police on the development of the London tramways.   Today the police have won - any problem and a whole tram system can stop for them to get the RAIB to take over!!!   Colin.

If you want to just have the ammo boxes mentioned above, just email the seller 'woodworm2014' on Ebay who can made these available without the wagon.

47 minutes ago, thirty2a said:

They arrived 

Had you already got MET Vol 2?   The police appear in that as well!!!

Have now received two 3D printed kits from "woodworm" on Ebay.   One is to easily make 10 pallets which fit nicely as a load on Bachmann flats.   The other is to build a wagon loaded with ammunition boxes.   The ammo box load is superb and again fits nicely on Bachmann flats.   The wagon itself is generic and similar to Peco N-119 without braking!   These kits are so inexpensive one can afford to load a long train!.

Johann, I have been told that the actual MSC licensing dates do not appear to have survived so I have given my further comments above on dating based on Cyril's statements in his books.   So look forward to hearing how you have got to the end of exploring all your possible leads.   Please let me know if you decide to write an article and which photos you want to use so copyright can be sorted by the publisher.   Roger and out!   Colin.

On 12/04/2023 at 17:37, coline33 said:

Johann, there is not much more one can glean so I add three from the T&LRS London Photo Archive.   The foot pedal is stated as operating the ticket punch to authorise the ticket by a hole before issue.   I wonder if 342-4 and 341 rebuilt as a bogie car had a decent shelf top above and incorporating the ticket machine.   Have you enquired of the London Transport Museum?   Colin.

The middle photo of the lady paying her fare was on 341 after alterations in 1924/5 to bring it more into line with 342-344.   The bottom view is definitely 342 on 18.10.24 at Hanwell.

22 hours ago, coline33 said:

Johann, herewith a lightened top view with the boy pulling the ticket.   Taken at Hanwell depot but not clear whether 341 hadbeen rebuilt before or after photo taken.   Colin.

I have come to the conclusion that this photo was taken in 1923 and possibly staged in Hanwell depot.   The Brandt coin exchange looms large over the Shanklin ticket issuer.   This would have been before the car was rebuilt for the full one-man operated Hanwell-Brentford service on 2.9.25.

24 minutes ago, thirty2a said:

 

Yes, Tony, the police hated the rapidity of change from Victorian society when they were formed.   Electric trams were too fast for them and more than three people were not allowed at stops where trams must not have two stopped one behind the other and hauling trailers or working M/U.   When the BoT refused to continue to back them by WW1, a new breed of copper emerged in the 1920's Superintendent Bassom who thought he was "King of London's transport"!   While he succeeded in organising service numbers for buses he ojected to every post-WW1 improvement in the tramways.   Keep enjoying the history reading, Colin.

1 hour ago, coline33 said:

Johann, as we have got to this point I will find time to do a history timescale for 341-344.   As the view of 341 is at Hanwell better dating is necessary - I do find wrong dates recorded as photos are indexed by museums.   I  will have to find out if the MSC licensing data has survived for LUT.   I have all such data on London's trams from 1933-1952 and know that some survived for LCC cars.   Colin.

Johann, I have started at the beginning!   MET 132 damaged 1920 and rebuilt 1921 as a one-man car with automatic ticket machines and tested on Alexandra Palace services but Metropolitan Police objected to one-man cars on hilly routes.   The bottom photo on page 396 of LUT Vol 2 is off the interior of 342 as the window design is not that of 341.   You would have come across the "Mileometers" also called Road Guides.   If interested see Appendix 22 of Cyril's MET Vol 2 book.   Colin.

39 minutes ago, thirty2a said:

Well done Colin, beet me to them, they do look interesting. they are going to a good home.

tony

No Tony, SR71 told me that he received an offer just before he got mine, so not coming to me but I am not all that concerned.   Thank for helping, Colin.

11 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

Thanks - That is a lot clearer and it now appears to show the top curvature on the ticket dispensing end of a Shanklin machine casing, with the ticket delivery chute (for want of a better phrase) almost level with the edge of the counter  - the same counter edge visible in your original post with the Automaticket dispenser - which means that the bottom half of the machine is below that counter and not visible and making it less obvious what was going on in the photo.

The change giving device seems to be mounted right alongside the ticket machine as well, in front of where the driver is standing.

 

 

 

Johann, as we have got to this point I will find time to do a history timescale for 341-344.   As the view of 341 is at Hanwell better dating is necessary - I do find wrong dates recorded as photos are indexed by museums.   I  will have to find out if the MSC licensing data has survived for LUT.   I have all such data on London's trams from 1933-1952 and know that some survived for LCC cars.   Colin.

1 hour ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

It's a shame the top photo of those 3 is so dark as it certainly seems to show a different arrangement of equipment to that in the third photo. It appears to be issuing a large ticket - assuming that's what the child s holding (the Shanklin ones were 7" x 2") and the bulk behind would be about the right size for the "change giver".

I've looked at the third image (which is clearer in the LRTA book) again, but this time with a magnifying glass, and it definitely shows something with a combined ticket issuer and fare box (with payment hopper to take the coins) arrangement, which doesn't seem to fit in with the standard Shanklin box shape/layout of setting keys. All of their machines seemingly followed the same basic shape which was this.....

 

 

Though that illustration appears to be an early version as the later ones were a slightly more rounded shape, judging by their adverts.......

 

 

That's the 1922 advert that mentions "London, Eng." in it for the one and only time, and one does wonder about the "we're too busy to attend the equipment convention" statement as well!!

 

The middle one of those photos reminds me of the sort of ticket issuing arrangements they used to have in cinemas (Automaticket?) - a flat plate with buttons to press to issue tickets from slots in the plate. Was that the final LUT version of ticket issuing?

EDIT - Just looked at the Tickets chapter of the LUT book and it says they started with the Automaticket system first of all before switching to the Shanklin machine, so the second photo is of the initial phase of OMO operation!

 

I seem to have exhausted any mention of them further in ERJ, so the next step is going to be contacting a couple of the Trolley Museums in the US to see if they have anything in their archives about the Shanklin system.  I did ask at Seashore about 10 years ago as I went armed with photos of our casing and an advert from ERJ, but they had never heard of them!

As I've now found they were used by a couple of operators near Pittsburgh - ones that ran until 1937 - The Pennsylvania Trolley Museum (also near Pittsburgh) seems a good place to start.....

 

 

.

Johann, herewith a lightened top view with the boy pulling the ticket.   Taken at Hanwell depot but not clear whether 341 hadbeen rebuilt before or after photo taken.   Colin.

35 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

I did find Vol 2 of the LUT history at our museum this afternoon, so I've borrowed it for a read!

 

Looking at the photos, the Brandt "change machine" is very obvious in the shot of the end of car 342 - the large box, side on, mounted on the handrails above the seat - an image of a US version being found online....

 

 

...but I cant see anything that looks like a Shanklin ticket machine on there.

There is something just inside the door and worked by a foot pedal - in front of where the wooden controller handle top can be seen, but that appears to have a hopper for taking the fares on top of it  and its too small to be a Shanklin machine. Is that the "simplified" LUT machine (with integrated farebox) and they had already given up on the Shanklins by that stage?

 

It's certainly developed beyond what I thought would be a simple case of seeing one of the Shanklin machines on an LUT car!

It would be interesting to see the photo of 341 that you mention in that case......

Johann, there is not much more one can glean so I add three from the T&LRS London Photo Archive.   The foot pedal is stated as operating the ticket punch to authorise the ticket by a hole before issue.   I wonder if 342-4 and 341 rebuilt as a bogie car had a decent shelf top above and incorporating the ticket machine.   Have you enquired of the London Transport Museum?   Colin.

1 minute ago, wagonbasher said:

I see you've 'bagged' them for posterity, excellent news.  Have you seen anything like that before?

 

Andy

Andy, there is a familarity from the past about them but I have not seen them.   It is the RV in the blueprint references.   They will go on to the LPTB/LTE blueprint collection from Charlton Works from which the Society members make the large scale models.   Colin. 

46 minutes ago, wagonbasher said:

Hi

 

I didn't know where to post this but this thread is the closest I can get to the topic:

 

This has been posted elsewhere on RMweb

 

Thanks, Andy, I have replied to SR71 on that web site.   Colin.

 

 

Andy