kenw

Regarding permitted tail traffic for DMUs particularly 'Light Weight' units, I've found my ER (Northern Area) Sectional Appendix 1972 and 1979; (a normal power car was 300hp, some, eg 110, 111 were 360hp. Some early Lightweights had a single 150hp engine to each car) The 1979 instructions are somewhat simpler; "Tail traffic in the form of bogie vehicles or four or six wheeled vehicles having a wheelbase of not less than 15 feet...over the routes shown.... subject to the over-riding limitation that the tail load attached to a unit of lightweight construction must not exceed 25 tonnes gross." For all routes listed the table gives the following loads; ( Train Formation / Min. Horsepower / Max. Tail Load Gross-Tonnes) 2 car 300hp; 25t 4 car 600hp, 2 car 400hp; 40t 3 car 600hp, 4 car 800hp; 65t 2 car 600hp, 5 car 900hp; 90t 4 car 900hp, 4-6 car 1200hp; 120t For Parcels only trains Darlington / Middlesbrough 2 car 600hp; 180t, 4 car 600hp; 120t "For the purpose of this instruction the following maximum vehicle gross weights apply; BZ, BGZ, BY, CCT, PMV, & SPV; 25 tonnes loaded; 17 tonnes empty B, Siphon G, BG and GUV; 40 tonnnes loaded; 32 tonnes empty." Also, tail loads were only to be attached to trains timed for the additional load, and an inoperative engine reduced the load by 35 tonnes. The 1972 instructions are, unfortunately, much more complicated and route (and sometimes direction) specific, the table running to 3 full pages, so not possible summarise, Generally though, wheelbase of 4 and 6 wheeled vehicles not limited. and lightweight units limited to 1 vehicle 17 tons gross, as are normal 2 car (300hp) sets. edit; error spotted by SRman corrected

From what I recall, the last Newcastle area 4 car sets worked the North Tyne Loop services, and went when these ceased for conversion to Metro, which was before I passed out in 81. The South Shields services had also ceased by then, not sure if these had used 4 car sets. By the late 80s the DMUs were rapidly being replaced by Pacers / Sprinters and surviving centre cars were rare. Our sets all went when the Pacers, 143s originally, came in during 85 / 86. When these then started failing en mass, all sorts of DMUs were drafted in to cover. (As well as loco haulage ) By the late 70s the first class on DMUs, in this area at least, was de-classified

Another favourite I heard of. Remember, they had a habit of 'loosing an engine' , ie it shutting down, due to the radiator boiling / leaking dry. Many staffed stations were equipped with watering cans for the driver to refill and then restart them; On this occasion though, a unit stops at Dilston S.B., (just west of Corbridge, L.C. with former A69). the conversation reputedly went something like this; Driver; A've lost an engine! Signalman; Ok mate, I'll wire Hexham have the water ready for you Driver; Naw mate; its obstruction o th line, it fell off!

Right, let's now get back off-topic I did hear the story once of two DMU sets being coupled at Newcastle and working through to Middlesbrough (about 40 miles) where it was discovered the brake pipes and multi-working cables were all coupled correctly.... but the actual coupling hadn't been put on

If I can be excused straying briefly back on topic to the original question of NE region 4 car set formations; My BRCW (104) 4-car, ex 2 x Hornby 110 The TBSL. A cut and shut from a TSL and DMBS. The Hornby power bogie is transplanted into the trailer car chassis by cutting out the central bolster in the bogie cut-out of the chassis; Also mentioned previously, the Met-Cam (101) Trailer Buffet cars; A representation of the buffet bar from plasticard can be seen in place of the seating Vent-Axia vent on roof of buffet area, a cast w/m part, sorry but can't remember source. Glazing with sliding vents filed off, and painted over to represent the blanking panels in the window apertures; oops, that reminds me; finish off with lining across the window panels!!! photos on club test track

I think quite a few on here will already be familiar with my rather low opinion of 91s. Failures? sorry, lost count. Pre 91/1 refurbishment, as well as bait I used to carry packets of cup-a-soup - emergency rations, they never went out of date! HSTs, never had a total failure (getting hauled in) with one yet. And learned them in '83 At Gateshead as we were then, even as a Relief Driver ('passed secondman') we had to know HSTs for ECS work to Heaton CS

91s keep going well? err, when did they start doing that?

Thanks again, and yes well guess I am almost, I did start quite young. Although as I've said, it's still not exceptional with front line staff. My previous comment on now being top 10 seniority in a depot of 100, so that's 10% with the same service, and a lot more not far behind. One thing that hasn't changed since BR days, in particular for driving, it's still very much a career rather than job, very few leave voluntarily. Not just drivers either, we also have guards who can match, or even beat this, and some station staff too. And I expect many of the signallers / engineering staff etc on here could tell similar. One particularly notable for long service though, although I'm not sure how long, is one of our CSAs, who's, a few years now been back working on-board after a number of years on the station, who was working aboard the 04:45 Newcastle - Kings X, 28/02/01

Tosh.....Posturing to get round not competing directly against the franchisee! One of them even made the claim they'd call at Morpeth to serve Newcastle Airport passengers! There's no direct public transport from Morpeth to the airport (22 min / 16 mile by 'A' road, 28 min / 12 mile by 'B' road) Existing services to Newcastle Central, which is also closer, at 7 miles, have a direct rail link (Metro) to the airport!

And there's now only one daily through London - Glasgow service each way via the east coast, the other services intended for serving intermediate destinations having been transferred to Cross Country. The new proposals under review though represent a hugely significant step up in 'open access' operation, and would effectively give the principal (and fastest) services over the main part of the route (ie Edinburgh - London) to open access operation in preference to the franchised operator ! Who of coarse would still be left to try to pay the major part of NR's costs! Why should anyone pay the costs of the franchise if you're allowed to cherry-pick the principal services on the route? And if Alliance want to become the principle operator, why didn't they bid for the franchise? Also, remember, that during the VERY recent re-franchise, bidders were instructed "not to make their bids on the basis of there being any significant increase in open access operation on the east coast route" These current proposals would, I feel, result in a significant affect on the basis of the current franchise bid, and if granted, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see legal action and / or yet again an east coast franchise fold, or cost cutting being necessary so competition would drive down standards. It also seems many of the public could be miss-led by the nature of this operation, I recently had a regular spotter at Edinburgh excitedly exclaiming that GNER are coming back, well they're NOT!! and the proposals have nothing at all to do with the original GNER!

And also receive an unfair proportion of open ticket revenue

Well, I'll probably be ready to go in the NRM with it

Yes, it's behind me. I was referring to post #203 and the discussion on length of service, above.

Depends which EMT set's being discussed. The hired-in one recently (so in full EMT livery) has been meant to be kept to KX - Yorkshire services, and I believe had a specific diagram. The original hired in set, since permanently transferred in and now in EC grey (and the only HST to be so) but still with original interior, is like all EC HSTs based at Craigentinny, so does need to work to Edinburgh I believe its avoided running it further north when possible

Well, we all get to wear a new shirt tomorrow!

To be fair, we had a lot of that on the ER too, especially when it came to restructuring and the likes of single manning at 125, but of coarse this was mostly the older drivers with only 5 or so years left to do anyway. Nearly all the younger drivers at the time are still there - I may be top 10 seniority with 38 years, but around half the depot are within two or three years behind!

Yes, only too well. I used to call it the East Midlands Coast when still in EMT colours but with 'East Coast' over it. I believe that it was originally meant to be temporary, to cover while EC sets were refurbished, but was later made a permanent transfer for the increased services in the new timetable. Doubt it'll be refurbished due to the limited time HSTs are now planned to be with us. And no doubt, EMT for some reason, wouldn't want to give away one of their best sets! It used to be a real pain to work, as it's (original) PA isn't compatible with the new one on EC sets, which meant for several months the driver / guard buzzer didn't work, and every stop you had to look out for a green flag from the guard. And with different refurbishments, several auxiliary controls are somewhere else! I've seen another EMT set in on hire recently too, could be that one being referred too.

Briefly, it doesn't

Am now probably in top 10 seniority in a depot of 100.... only taken 38 years

Not really,especially in the case of train crew, and other 'front line' staff, although such figures are routinely amazed at by each successive new management! As you'll have seen in my previous post I talked of driving HSTs when they said InterCity on the side (and those days you certainly didn't start on InterCity)..... and still am

What? Just 20 years?

Even that wouldn't be directly comparable, it was somewhat easier to time trains back then... A quick google, VTEC run 152 trains per weekday, IIRC, at the start of GNER it was 100, and of coarse, no Open Access trains then. Also, the timings then would have been as from InterCity, which as I commented above, were faster than they are now. Back then, being a Class 1 actually meant something and being an East Coast Express really meant something! One particular day I remember, shortly before the demise of InterCity... we (2 drivers then of course, so not just me) were on an HST service from the north, booked Newcastle to London in 3 hours with one or maybe two stops (quite slack timings really). the train arrived into Newcastle 16 mins. late... we made up 19 ! (and all strictly linespeed) A Trans Pennine had left shortly ahead of us, we passed it being held on the slow line at Tyne Yard, not something you'd see these days. And back then, the ECML was like riding on a billiard table! Even remember the power car numbers (though not which way round), but hardly surprising.. 43113 'City of Newcastle' - our home station - and 43114 'National Garden Festival, Gateshead' - where my (then) house was built on These days, you'd more than likely loose another 16... Just a month or so back, and a similar train, arrives into Newcastle 20 late, ready to leave, we're held for a further 5 minutes for a Cross Country to go first (although he has more stops).. train ends up 35 late at Kings X

Not quite in the case of GNER, probably more to do with the parent company SEA Containers, errm, Sinking It's still Virgin Trains East Coast, just it's rather long winded in anouncements

BR General Appendix, 1972 Hauling of "dead" locomotives and multiple-unit stock Part II - Multiple Unit Stock 1.Movement ..... (e) "Dead" multiple-unit stock must not be conveyed in freight trains (f) Not more than two lightweight vehicles may be conveyed "dead" in a train and they must be placed together at the rear of the train. Lightweight vehicles are distinguished by the letters "LW" painted on the vehicle ends.

Agreed, and the B Golding / Cheona book I referenced earlier doesn't make any mention of any 101 / 105 sets being classed as Lightweights, as far I as know, they weren't