wfk

Well, yes and no. With hundreds of members spread all over Europe, there is no way that you can all form a "settled group of regular attendees". However, within a region, people tend to get to know one another, so at a typical regional meeting, most people will have met before at some point, though there are frequently unknown faces turning up, either because they just joined the club, or they have been inactive for a few years, or they are visiting from another area. At the bigger events, you tend to find people from all over Europe, and you typically know only some of the people there. But since everybody walks around with a name tag with language flags, there is no problem with communication. Sometimes you see a name tag and think "oh, so that's that guy I see on the mailing list every so often". I have been to smaller regional meetings in Germany where I knew only a few people. I simply put on my name tag, walked around, and when I saw an interesting station, I would simply walk up to the owner and say "Can I look how you operate it in the next session so I can operate it after that?", and that usually works. One key point, though, is that "real" meetings are pre-arranged, so a layout plan can be created in advance. Creating a layout on the spot using whatever people carry in the door is practically undoable with free form modules beyond a scale of maybe 10 or 20 modules. There are also various small informal meetings where people just show up, but operating a proper layout is usually not the goal of such meetings. Note that many people do still "just show up" at meetings, when they are not bringing any modules. Sometimes people just show up for a saturday afternoon to run a few trains during one session. But if you want to bring modules for the layout, you need to sign up a few months in advance so the organizers can use your modules in the layout plan, and commit to either being there for the duration, or arranging transport of your modules. You generally cannot expect to be able to just pack up your modules on saturday evening because you have other commitments on sunday. I have once seen this happen with a few harbour modules that showed up late and were added onto the end of a branch where space was left for them, but that is the exception, not the rule. Another point that is perhaps worth noting is that for purposes of insurance & such, it is often useful to be able to state that a meeting is "for members of the club and invitees only". This might also make a difference for hall rent, as you are not a commercial activity. Willem

Perhaps it helps people get some idea of what we in FREMO think a modular club is all about if I paint a typical scene at a typical meeting... Of course, there is a lot of variation in modules. At a typical H0-Europe meeting there are a few larger stations, several small/tiny stations/halts, and various stretches of single or double track. Life at a small station is quite a bit more leisurely than at the larger stations. The most interesting scenes can usually be found at some of the larger stations. Let me paint a picture: We have a big station, think 10-12 meters length, some 9 tracks wide, in the center is a slightly stressed station manager trying to keep everything moving. To the left is the South signalbox man, and to the right is the North signalbox man, and hovering between them is the local shunter. On the other side of the station are 7 people crowding the narrow gangway. 1 running the express train that is just coming in, 1 running the regional train that is about to leave, 1 of the goods train heading south, 1 of the goods train heading north, 1 waiting to be handed the controller of the local shuttle train that departs from here in 5 minutes, and 2 people making photos and movies. All of them are chatting, discussing various bits of rolling stock on view, the interesting way that the points were installed on this station, and that the soup isn't as good this year as it used to be. The goods train people are cooperating with the local shunter to get their wagons exchanged so they can get on with their journey. Between chatting, they listen with a half ear to the nagging of the station master to get on with things as he has yet another goods train coming in and he needs the tracks free. The South signalbox man is on the phone with the station master of the next station to the south, explaining that, no, they can't send the next train yet as there isn't any space for it. Obviously, the station manager won't be doing this all weekend. Next session, someone else can run this bottleneck and he will enjoy some peace & quiet. Meanwhile, at a small station on the other side of the layout, the station master is reading his Continental Modeller while enjoying a cup of soup, after he just answered the phone to allow the next train to trundle through. Willem

Perhaps some of the objections and ill feelings among some of the Brits here are just caused by a bit of misunderstanding of some of the fundamental concepts underlying the modular systems/clubs that have been successful. I suppose one could, in principle, operate a modular layout the way it is described above. I don't think I would want to take part, because it doesn't seem to be a lot of fun. The key concept that seems to make a modular system successful, and that differs from how some Brits seem to think about it, is to let go of the possessive attitude towards "*my* modules" and "*my* trains". To make it work, you operate the entire thing as a group. How exactly things are run depend on the operational model you choose, of course, but let's take a typical FREMO meeting as an example. During a weekend, we run several sessions that simulate a day, which, at 5:1 or 6:1 time takes a few hours. For every session, we start by handing out station duties. Some people may elect to run their own station, but they don't have to, and larger stations are often run by several people. Basically, it's a bit of an auction: "Who wants to run Chesterfield?" "Ok, John is Chesterfield this time. Need a shunter?" "Ok, Mark is shunter at Chesterfield.". Some stations need a bit of instruction, so arrangements are made with the owner to learn the ropes before you take on the job. Once all stations are manned, everybody else gets to run trains (or chat at the bar...). In principle, you just pick the first next train on the pile, and let yourself be surprised by what you get to do this time, but if you have a specific preference, you just hang around at the table until an interesting train is at the top of the pile... If you run a train, you walk up to the departure station, get handed the controller of the train you are running, and then you walk along the layout, following your train, until at the final destination you hand off the controller to the local station master. You may get to do some shunting along the way to drop off or pick up wagons. Running a station means setting signals, communicating with neighboring stations to accept incoming trains and get outgoing trains accepted, making sure trains end up at the right track/platform, organizing the shunting of goods trains, and making sure trains can leave more or less on time (the Dutch are typically way less rigid about following the schedule to the minute than the Germans usually are, so there's a lot of regional variation here... :-)) In most cases, you will not be able to easily identify "*your*" bit of layout, as your modules are spread out all over, except of course for big stations and module clusters that have been explicitly built as a unit, and only if you brought a multiple-unit or a specific rake of wagons will you be able to spot "*your*" train. Most engines and wagons just go into the pool. So it is quite fundamentally *not* a simple case of bringing *your* bit of layout, tacking other people's bits on at each end, and then sit down at your bit of layout and wait for a train to arrive at your bit so you can operate it for a while (and be disappointed that it is not your favorite train) until you pass it on to the next lad. That would be way boring and won't do much to foster a sense of "being part of the club". Of course, the above is just an example based on FREMO practice, and if you want to do it differently, that is possible. But I think the bit about letting go of the possessiveness and functioning as a group is a key part to making it a success. Willem

A few random remarks regarding some of the things I have seen coming up here, as it relates to the FREMO standards. Roundy-roundy vs End-end: Within FREMO, normal operation is end-end with fiddle yards or end stations at the end of each branch, but with a double track line, it would be fairly simple to build a few loop modules to replace the fiddle yard at the end, thus instantly turning it into a dog-bone style circle, somewhat akin to what NordModul does. To actually construct a proper circle of modules is mechanically kinda tricky with free-form modules, but with some effort it might actually be achievable. I am not aware of any meeting in FREMO ever attempting a loop or multi-path network layout, but then, I obviously don't know everything that's going on everywhere in the club... Note that you do not actually need a full proper loop layout for an exhibition, although that is obviously common practice. When FREMO went to Warley, they offerred a 10m x 10m block, and FREMO asked to changed that into 3m x 30m, so we could build a nice long weaving linear layout, which greatly impressed the audience. Control: DC vs DCC, Loconet vs Expressnet: One of the nice aspects of the FREMO standard is that the control aspects are kept entirely separate from the actual modules. The modules themselves are pretty much neutral and generic. Back in the 90s, FREMO converted from multi-circuit DC to DCC within a period of a few years (quicker than anticipated), with mixed operations during the transitional period. All the control electrics/electronics and cabling are separate from the modules and installed at the meeting. The main thing that has changed since the introduction of DCC is that station builders no longer bother with lots & lots of block control switches to control the station. The whole station can simply be wired as one big blob, hooked up to a single feed from a booster. Double track line modules still have 2 separate electrical hookups, one for each track, and on a DCC setup, these are externally joined to a booster by the DCC cabling. We have discussed the issue of control bus, and I believe we concluded that the jacks & cabling used for the DCC control bus within FREMO are sufficiently generic that they should work fine with Expressnet, even though they were originally designed for use with Loconet. However, the FREMO controller, which completely hides DCC from the train operators and thus makes life a lot easier, and the various bits of auxiliary DCC control electronics to cope with scale & distance, are Loconet, so you won't be able to use those with Expressnet based command stations. Willem

The way this is handled within FREMO is to maintain a database of modules, with CAD drawings and notes. A new module is marked as "drawing unverified", "module untested", or some such, so an organizer knows this one is an uncertain factor and they should not stick it right at the center of the layout where any problem with it will be very disruptive. So you stick it somewhere near an end point, where it is relatively easy to replace if it really causes problems. (People always bring a few spare modules just in case). People are also encouraged to take their module to a meeting when it is still in a very rough form, so any trouble with measurements, track work, etc, can be fixed before all the scenery is added, which makes fixing things more difficult. The result of this is, of course, that at any meeting you *will* see a few "ugly" modules with no scenery whatsoever, going through a test run. Willem

Well, it very much depends on your personal interests. Some people have sufficient space at home that they can set up several of their modules, perhaps with a few "non-standard" tight curve modules that work at home because they know what stock they are going to run on it. But I have also seen a photo of someone who had cleared out most of their lounge to do a one-off test setup of half of their station module, to see if it all actually fit together properly. There was no way they would be able to set up the entire station in their home... And I have seen a TV interview with some people in the Netherlands who, as a group, spent some years researching the history of a few interesting stations in the north of the Netherlands, documenting how they were in the 60s, then spent some years building the modules, and now that they are done, the modules spend most of their time in storage, to be taken out a few times per year to be set up at some club meeting somewhere in Europe. (and, presumably, to be taken to a home a few sections at a time before a meeting to check that all is well) A modular club caters to various different interests among its members. Some people like to build large stations, some people like to build lots of simple "line" modules with wonderful bits of scenery, some people collect huge amounts of rolling stock, some people like to play with electronics and have an extensive stock of various DCC equipment to be able to kit out a small to medium sized meeting, some people like to organize meetings, design layouts and schedules, etc, and some people simply like to show up and run trains. Nobody is *required* to do all of this at once. You do what you like best, and the whole thing works because at a meeting you operate as a group. But if you only want to build your own layout in your basement and sit there running your own trains, there is probably little point in building to any common modular standard, as it doesn't have any added value for you. Willem

Well, a local vendor would be nice, but I think shipping to the UK is actually not that expensive, and certainly not if you use something like "FREMO post", which is the scheme used within FREMO where members take materials from meeting to meeting to ultimately end up at their final destination. Just a bit of coordination within the club, and you can cut your costs significantly. Willem

I don't know how things were back in the 90s, but I don't recall reading anywhere about such a requirement to buy from FREMO. Harald is selling excellent laser cut end plates at a very nice price, so most people have become lazy and simply purchase from him. Harald is a member of FREMO, but afaik his end plate business has no official ties with FREMO, and I am not aware that you even *can* purchase end plates from FREMO. If people want to cut their own end plates, that should be fine, and if someone else with a good laser cutter decides to start making and selling end plates according to the standard drawings, that would also be fine, assuming you make sure that they are cut accurately. Of course, if people ask, they are usually advised by fellow FREMO members to not bother doing their own thing, simply buy from Harald, and be done with it. I am not aware of any other vendor in the market at this time. Willem

I don't see the dichotomy here. Different people have different ideas about how they wish to do "scale model railroading". This ad is obviously aimed at those who would like to do somewhat realistic operations with their model railroad and not worry too much about the minute little details of their models. This need not imply using only "purchased RTR equipment". Many other people don't much care about the operations, but wish to focus on making a beautiful scene with the highest possible level of modelling precision. There are various degrees and combinations of each, and you will find that at the extremes, people have trouble understanding those at the other end. The hard line operational folk will call the precision modellers "rivet counters", and the focussed detailed modellers may say the operational folk are just "playing with toy trains". :-) In FREMO, there are actually some smaller sub-groups with interesting combinations, where people build highly detailed modules running highly detailed hand-tweaked models with authentic couplers, sprung buffers, etc, etc, and do authentic "big train" operations with it. One of these groups was invited to Warley because of their high quality of modelling. What struck most visitors, though, was the huge size of the layout, by far the largest in the hall, yet by FREMO standards a small one, only 30 meters long... Willem

Hi Paul, I believe a previous version of the H0-Europe standard documented a technical minimum radius of 1000 mm and a suggested minimum of 1500 mm for through track. Alas, I can't find a copy of this older spec to confirm. In the latest revision, these numbers have been raised to 2000 mm. I suppose there is no harm in someone making a few simple 1000 or 1500 mm radius curve modules to allow a layout designer to work themselves out of a tight corner, but in general I would suggest that people build curves to the documented minimum of 2000 mm, just to avoid trouble. Note, though, that if one were to do this, I would not be surprised if these tight modules were abandonded after a few years because with the growing amount of stock of varying quality that people bring, they turn out to be more trouble than they are worth... Willem

Hi Paul, Please note that not all FREMO meetings are as big as some of the photos you see. In there Netherlands there is one yearly meeting in the hall of a village archery club, which is about the size of a typical village hall as I've seen them in the UK. Even with the radii as prescribed by the H0-Europe standard, we have no problem setting up a nice layout in that space. The large radii do have a technical reason: tighter radii can significantly increase the risk of derailments when you are running a wide variety of stock, as is common within a growing modular club. In fact, almost everything you find in the H0-Europe standard was borne out of practical experience with what does and does not work in the context of a large modular club. FREMO members also don't like to have irrelevant details prescribed, so before something gets into the standard, there has to be a good reason. These are not simply random "requirements" that someone thought up sitting in their arm chair because it seemed like a nice idea. This standard is practical experience speaking. Willem

Oh btw, regarding the subject of "language gap" and "badly documented" wrt FREMO standards: the UK group has been working hard on translating the full FREMO H0-Europe standard from German to English. This is available as a PDF from the FREMO web site (http://www.fremo-net.eu/). The FREMO H0-Europe standard is an extensive document of 56 pages describing various aspects, both mechanical, electrical, electronic, safety, compatibility, operational, etc. Some of the other FREMO standards are less detailed, though presumably good enough to serve the needs of their respective groups. Sometimes I do wish the people writing the FREMO standards would take some more hints from the NMRA, because I do think the FREMO standards are not as well organised as the NMRA standards. But that is a separate discussion... Willem

Hi all, I'm new on this forum. I just signed up after the chairman of FREMO pointed us (fremo_uk) to this discussion, noting that we might be able to provide some useful input. I'm Dutch myself, but I am one of the people who have been working over the past few years on getting a UK branch of FREMO started. Yes, there is a group already, and plans for meetings are being worked on. The UK members we have so far appear to have a rather broad range of interests. I've seen discussions on HO-Europe modelling, OO-UK, and On30 (US narrow gauge). As for OO-UK, consensus in the UK has been to simply adopt the existing and well-tested FREMO H0-Europe standard, and simply amend the recommended practices parts as needed where there are specific differences between either H0 vs OO scale, or EU vs UK modelling. The main reason for doing this is that this standard has been developed for over 25 years, and thus encodes a lot of practical experience with making a modular system work well. By simply latching on to this, we easily avoid all the common beginner's mistakes. Technically, there is nothing in the H0-Europe standard that is incompatible with OO scale use. After we had been talking about this for some time, we found out that there was also an OO-UK group active in Berlin, who had through historical accident taken the FREMO H0-US module as a basis for their own separate OO-UK standard. So we found ourselves in the rather unique situation that the Brits were following existing continental standards, and the Germans were developing their own new UK standard. Sort of a reversal of historic precedent. :-) We've had some good discussions with the German group on the subject of standards, but I haven't followed their activities lately, so I don't know what they ended up doing. Anyway, what this all means is that if people here are interested in building a modular system to model UK prototype in OO scale (or anything else, for that matter), they are most welcome to join FREMO UK. There are several continental FREMO members interested in helping the UK group get started. So we have offers of people willing to come over to a UK meeting with modules and other materials, etc. FREMO has been using DCC since the late 1990s, and has a lot of experience with making it work right in the complex setting of a modular layout. We have our own low-cost controllers specifically designed for the particular use case of a modular layout where many different people (including children), often with limited or no knowledge of DCC, operate dozens or hundreds of different trains and walk along the layout doing so. (One DCC manufacturer cloned this design for their own product...) Well, apologies for lots of rambling in my first post. I hope I didn't upset anyone with any of the above, but I just wanted to give you all the potentially relevant info about the current state of FREMO in the UK, in the hope that we can all join forces and avoid fragmenting the modular layout landscape in the UK. Willem