ruggedpeak

As an aside, one thing a lot of Swiss trains, trams and buses have is a pre-arrival facility on fully powered doors. If you push the door button whilst the unit is in motion that door will open as soon as the driver releases the doors at the stop/station. It also lights the button or a separate light by the door to indicate this in operation. I don't know if this helps dwell times but suspect it does have some impact. It is something I always use as it means I don't have to think about waiting to push the button until the door release has been actuated (as against when the train stops!). I get irritated by stock not fitted with! I don't recall it in the UK but I have only used a limited range of stock so may be in use. Anyway, it is a good thing as you can approach the door push the button and know the door will open immediately.

One upside of the this latest WCRC fiasco is that CDL is now widely known about, seems like any reference to railway coaching stock now includes a CDL comment, whether it is Bachmann announcing imminent WCRC coaches coming into stock, Facebook posts or other social and normal media. ESR were highlighting their passenger stock training work for a TOC on Facebook and included confirmation that their Mk2 and Mk3 coaching stock is CDL fitted in the post! A large number of people including a growing portion of the general public are now aware of and expecting CDL on their coaches....so any hope of WCRC avoiding CDL and getting more exemptions are well and truly dead as their own publicity and PR stunts have made sure everyone is aware that coaches on the mainline need CDL and know it is a safety issue. It is difficult not to admire the genius of their entire strategy....🤣

Same here in Switzerland - on the mainline, the single decker Eurocity coaching stock (see below) running major routes right across the country operate this way. Doors are heavy to open, it has to be said, and it often confuses people not familiar with this stock as they stand by the doors waiting for them to open automatically at the station - this is common at Geneva and Geneva airport as this route has a lot of non-Swiss passengers. Whilst the doors open manually, an air system (AFAIK) closes all the doors, this operated by the guard. It reinforces the point about people not being familiar with manual doors these days as many trains have button or automatic door operation. https://www.sbb.ch/en/travel-information/services-on-train/our-trains/eurocity.html

That might actually add up to the £7m figure WCRC was putting out!

FB comment from a local about the Jacobite at 1425 hours: "....I believe it is presently stuck somewhere near Glenfinnan holding up the sprinter..." Several likes suggest perhaps others aware. Looked on RTT, first run of the season so likely to be teething troubles. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C10935/2024-04-15/detailed 2Y62 1410 Mallaig to Fort William Departing today operated by West Coast Railways This service is cancelled. This service was cancelled due to a problem with a steam locomotive (ME).

LSL announce their trip https://www.facebook.com/share/p/HSLqmkhRhv3FvpyS/ We are delighted to present a day return journey over the world-famous West Highland Jacobite line, featuring some of the most spectacular scenery in Scotland as we cross magnificent bridges and viaducts offering views of tumbling waterfalls, peaceful lochs, and the Isle of Skye. The train departs Fort William at 08.50 for the magnificent 84-mile round trip on the ‘Jacobite’ line to Mallaig - Passing Ben Nevis we travel along the shoreline of Loch Eil and at Glenfinnan cross the viaduct featured in the ‘Harry Potter’ movies offering stunning vistas down Loch Shiel and regarded as the most spectacular view in Britain. There will be a short break in the pretty fishing port of Mallaig from 10.50 to 11.30 before retracing our outward route past the white sands of Morar with an arrival back in Fort William at 13.20. Tickets are available as pay on the day from staff on the train and are priced at £40 per person for adults and £20 per person for under 16’s.

I've just found that Mr Wolmar did a piece in the Spectator entitled "Don’t blame health and safety for killing the Harry Potter steam train" a couple of weeks ago. https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/dont-blame-health-and-safety-for-killing-the-harry-potter-steam-train/ He doesn't mince his words: "Should we be tempted to regard the safety risks on a few puffa trains as being nothing much to worry about, it should be noted that West Coast Railways has form on potential dangers of this sort. The company was involved in what, in my 30 years of writing about the railways, came close to becoming one of the worst disasters in British railway history." I will let readers guess what he is referring to.........

Apologies if this has been answered before, but if no ETH loco what powers the CDL?

The upshot of all this is presumably that WCRC will use Mk2def's and everyone will be happier, especially the punters who no longer have to look through steamed up windows on the rare occasions it is cold/damp/raining on the West Coast of Scotland 🤣 . WCRC won't have to employ door stewards. ORR will no doubt do inspections etc, meanwhile LSL have got their foot in the door up there. No one at DfT or ORR was ever going to put their career on the block for WCRC, the naive MP's have been put back in their box, the PR stunts have generated as much anti-WCRC sentiment as pro, especially in Scotland. So what will WCRC have achieved at the end of this? A rhetorical question of course. And of course there is still time for WCRC to go all in and snatch total disaster from the jaws of defeat, who would bet against them doing really dumb even at this stage? Definitely need some TV company to a fly on the wall documentary about WCR's management......

Have an incident on two wheels and it is largely luck what happens. Separating from the bike and sliding across the centre markings into oncoming traffic or street furniture often doesn't go well for example.

Well if the sea is so safe why is there a 200 year organisation that does nothing but rescue people at sea, many of whom started the day on a beach but ended up not on it? You'd have thought in between chuntering and posting in the DM comments section they'd be watching TV, where there is even a BBC series about the RNLI on repeat during the daytime.

Was in the Torygraph yesterday, good to see DfT giving them two fingers!

In other door related news.... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/12/driverless-dlr-train-london-doors-open/ (paywall) Reportedly the DLR train sped towards Bank apparently. From the passenger comments the train was slow to leave Shadwell then stopped. Then it started again and carried on with the door open. Of course there is no driver or door stewards on the DLR. TfL stated there is a staff member on every train, but as DLR units have no connecting corridor and often work in multiple that's as much use as a chocolate teapot if they are in the other unit. Did anyone push the emergency button, no of course not, they were too busy filming it...... I always liked the DLR towards Bank as the tunnel lights reminded me of when the fighters launched in Battlestar Galactica.....

So an English company trying it on and having p1ssed off a lot of Scots trying to use an infamous day when the English thrashed the Scots on the battlefield to garner support in Scotland? Genius.

The Telegraph has just regurgutated the WCRC line and headlined it "Steam trains face end of the line in Britain after row over slamming doors", https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/11/steam-trains-face-end-line-britain-row-over-slamming-doors/ paywall The usual WCRC #stuff but concludes: A Department for Transport spokesman said: “The ORR is the independent rail safety regulator, and it would therefore be inappropriate for the department or ministers to intervene in their decision to refuse a further exemption to West Coast Railways, which was upheld by the High Court.”

I wouldn't worry, they are trolling on behalf of WCRC trying to find ways that is it "hypocritical" etc that WCRC have to fit CDL, all due to the hate crimes and partisan nature of RMWebers! 🤣Apparently Hamish Macbeth is already struggiling with the volume of reports of people criticising WCRC!

The 25 mph limit is irrelevant to the WCRC issue anyway, it relates to the Light Railway regulations for the entire operating environment, used by heritage railways to avoid the cost of full scale compliance. The WHL is not a light railway. Full regulations apply to all aspects, so non-CDL stock is not permitted except by exemption.

Yes, perhaps someone experienced in railway PR work can advise. In relation to your regulation question, the regs you previously linked to https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-03/rsr-1999-guide-to-operation-of-mark-one-type-and-hinged-door-rolling-stock.pdf are clear IMHO under this section: What is meant by ‘a person operating a train or rolling stock’? 1.8 Regulation 2(3) makes it clear that regulations 3 and 4 apply to persons who operate trains or rolling stock in the course of a business or other undertaking, whether or not for profit. This definition includes a company and in this document the term ‘train operator’ is used to describe someone with obligations under regulation 2(3). 1.9 The regulation includes operations which are run on a voluntary basis, where there is no employment or self-employment and it also makes it clear that a self-employed train driver is not an 'operator' This means the regs apply to anyone operating a train or rolling stock' (i.e. WCRC), 'whether or not for profit' and where there is 'no employment or self-employment'. WCRC Mk1's full of journos is a train comprising rolling stock, being operated for profit or not (you can debate the profit issue either way, PR stunts are to generate profits ultimately, but the issue is irrelevant here since the regs apply irrespective of whether there is a profit motive). So my reading is that to operate Mk1 stock for a PR junket requires full regulatory compliance, so either Mk1's have CDL or an exemption in order to be used for a press trip. There is no leeway under the regs from CDL if someone is using Mk1's as 'rolling stock', which stuffing them full of journos is. If I have missed another clause that provides an exemption do let me know! More interesting is this bit at the end (page 11 & 12) which clarifies the position very clearly for those who think WCRC are being hard done by: 4.5 ORR expects any such application to demonstrate the requirements set out in ORR document (Railway Safety Regulations 1999, Assessment and Guidance Manual for Exemption Applications3) are met by either: (a) Setting out how the means of controlling risks associated with the operation of hinged doors other than the use of CDL as required under regulation 5: I. are in line with the hierarchy of controls within the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999; II. provide an alternative engineering solution not relying on individual human action to lock each door, that ensures doors are secondarily locked in position at all times the carriage is in the course of its journey; and III. is supported by a quantified risk assessment to demonstrate as a minimum, equivalence to CDL as a means of risk control; or: where fitment of a form of CDL to rolling stock with hinged doors is not achievable by the 31 March 2023 date; that a time bound programme of work is in hand for such fitment. In such cases a limited period of exemption may be considered to allow the programme to be completed, so long as other methods of secondary door locking are in place and being operated effectively in the meantime. Anyone who has read the various documents and utterances from WCRC and MP's will be aware of how WCRC has not entirely achieved the requirements clearly set out by the ORR and why therefore ORR would be in breach of its own guidance and policy to issue exemptions. We don't need to revisit those. If people want to disagree with ORR guidance documents, based upon statutory regulations, that is probably best done somewhere else by those with the necessary expertise and competence. There are very few on here who have those pre-requisites. It is irrelevant to the main issue of operating a compliant train service. It is just a distraction and howling at the moon. The critical issue is that WCRC have not complied with the documented requirements of the ORR and rather than do this they are trying various routes to not do so. CDL has been known about for 18 years, this guidance was issued in 2021. CDL is affordable and it is technically feasible, a Judge has confirmed so as has the real world experience of other operators.

It was a very long time ago, I was in an RAF Tristar with rear facing seats, but don't recall the details. Looks like it was an earlier version to the L1011, so stand corrected. Didn't like it though, preferred a seat with a rocket attached to it!

a few practical issues to sort out, perhaps slide into the cocoon and then some robotised stacking system on platform. The concourse can become a sorting area bit like airport baggage handling system. Could reduce injuries/deaths in a train crash but might have to concede some loss through robot malfunction etc.

All the seats in RAF passenger aircraft face rearwards for safety (as per adb's experience) but the passengers are not paying for the ride and have to do as they are told without question. Flying backwards is not conducive to relaxing.

the fundamental issue is often even getting a seat, so belts are irrelevant unless like a plane TOC's are guaranteeing a seat for every passenger, which leads to..... as has been said earlier, every train service would effectively be a Pullman, VSOE service then. Not sure that will go down well with the travelling public.... Of course you could make everyone lie in a small protected cocoon chamber and stack them into an upgraded freight wagon (get loads more people in then..) or replace the seats with rollercoaster style seating and restraint systems, would improve things dramatically......

Would a press junket in a train that does not meet current passenger safety requirements be allowed under a competent risk assessment? I would be curious as to whether an insurer would accept that risk. What would be the rationale for assuming the press are any different from fare paying passengers when it comes to behaviour or exposure to risk? They are (or used to be) well documented consumers of alcohol and will take risks to get stories. The car companies know a thing or two about the risks of press launches with written off vehicles, trying to get journo's out of the country before they get arrested, stopping the bad news stories leaking etc. Any risk assessment involving journo's (and even more dangerous, social media types taking risks for their Insta, whilst on the Bernina Express recently a young lady was hanging out the windows repeatedly whilst a chap was filming her...) is going to have to assume they are at least as risky as normal punters. You can also guarantee someone will test the doors whilst the train is moving to make a point on social media....... Push, kick, "See, these doors are perfectly sa.............." None of this actually precludes WCRC running a press train, or maybe one full of supportive MP's......

Trains The use of seat belts in trains has been investigated. Concerns about survival space intrusion in train crashes and increased injuries to unrestrained or incorrectly restrained passengers led researchers to discourage the use of seat belts in trains. "It has been shown that there is no net safety benefit for passengers who choose to wear 3-point restraints on passenger-carrying rail vehicles. Generally, passengers who choose not to wear restraints in a vehicle modified to accept 3-point restraints receive marginally more severe injuries."[127] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_belt#cite_note-127 A study published the same year by Britain’s Rail Safety and Standards Board {link in the article] reached a somewhat more positive verdict on seatbelts, but did not recommend them. “It was found that injury outcomes for passengers choosing to wear restraints were substantially improved,” the study said. “However, there was a slight general worsening of injury outcomes for passengers choosing not to wear restraints as they impacted the modified (stiffened) seat.” https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/us/amtrak-crash-raises-question-of-seatbelts-on-trains.html Took about 10 seconds of Googling.

"LSL, which operates under the same safety regulations as WCR, have progressively upgraded their trains during annual refurbishments. Its chief engineer says it is about £23,000 to upgrade a carriage to compliance. Jonathan Rawlinson said: “Over the years when we have refurbished our carriages we have made sure they are compliant." A very different approach from James Shuttleworth at WCRC. The world is moving on in railway safety. WCR are the laggards, time for them to make way for those who are forward looking and actually put safety first by investing in it rather than in lawyers and PR to not do it.